Lionel Messi

Oly Francis said:
Come on, we all know what happened for years between CR7 and Messi and the massive ego race to know who has the highest salary. That's the reason why Perez decided to let Cristiano go. Obviously nobody forces the board to give Messi this insane salary but nobody wants to be the manager who lost Messi in Barcelona, so they keep on paying more and more to the point where it becomes ridiculous.

Great exemple mentionning the bulls, what happened after Jordan left because they couldn't renew their team? No playoffs for 6 years straight and 1 single conference final in more than 20 years. Brilliant.
On the other hand, Dwayne Wade left 18M on the table to bring the big three to Miami (and so did Bosh and Lebron) and we all know what happened. That's team players.
Click to expand...

The Michael Jordan / D Wade examples don't really apply to soccer because the NBA has a different payroll structure to soccer teams. The NBA has a “luxury tax”, which punishes owners that exceed a certain spending limit with an additional tax on each dollar in excess which keeps, so this keeps salaries largely in check. In addition, the NBA operates as a cartel: even though teams compete for championships, they act in unison to protect one another's business. First, you have to have a franchise somehow in order to play other franchises. There's no promotion from lower divisions of the game to higher. There's no relegation. No single owner can join the league or do what he wants without the approval of the rest of the league. The league revenues are shared. The league tries to equalize the quality of the teams through the rookie draft system etc. The league appoints a commissioner to set game rules, determine salary constraints, and basically grow the league total pie. The commissioner can even ban an owner if he's hurting the league (e.g. Clippers owner was banned and effectively forced to sell his team after making derogatory comments towards African Americans).

In football players get to negotiate with teams just like in a typical job market. The most sought-after players would flock to the competitive leagues and wealthier teams and also be able to negotiate higher salaries. So obviously Messi being the best player in the world, would be able to command the highest salary in the sport. If Barca couldn't provide that (or ballpark) several other team could and would.
 
Brwned said:
That's conclusively untrue. Many sports organisations are poorly run financially, and stars becoming bigger than the people running the organisation and creating a false sense of priorities has been a significant cause of many of the declines of the bigger sports organisations. Hence the prior discussion about Wade and Jordan, and there's examples of this across every sport.

It's hard to decide how much Messi is worth. The idea that they know how much an individual player is worth commercially - their contribution to sponsorship revenue, viewing figures, brand value etc. - is fictional. It's based on very flawed models. And a lot of the decisions made in sports are still about personalities in a negotiating room, and appearances, rather than the flawed econometric models they're using in the first place. They aren't good examples of well-run businesses, in general.

All businesses make bad decisions, sports organisations make them more often than other businesses with the same resources, and the decision to make in this case is very complicated with a lot of unknown factors. It would be entirely reasonable in that scenario for them to make the wrong decision, in at least one of these negotiations. And then it snowballs from there. Messi has no idea how much he's worth either. He just knows that other players in his team get x amount, other superstars in other teams get x amount, Barcelona are bringing in x more this year than last year, and he's still excelling while other players are getting worse. Anyone in that situation would want more money, not because they want the money, but they want the club to demonstrate they value them, it's about the principle. But none of that is based on strong financial logic, that's just not the environment they exist in.
Click to expand...

If you think sports aren't well-run businesses, you're probably wrong. Wealthy businessmen who purchase sports franchises, openly collaborate in an uncompetitive way, and monopolize their local markets don't do it for charity or the fun of it. If you look at the figures relating to the US:
  • In 2000, the average value of an MLB team was $238 million, and in 2016, the average value was $1.288 billion. This is an increase of $1.05 billion (441%).
  • In 2000, the average value of an NBA team was $183 million, and in 2016, the average value was $1,245 billion. This is an increase of $1.062 billion (580%).
  • In 2000, the average value of an NFL team was $423 million, and in 2015, the average value was $1.965 billion. This is an increase of $1.542 billion (365%).
  • In 2000, the average value of an NHL team was $148 million, and in 2015, the average value was $505 million. This is an increase of $357 million (241%).
So these enormously increasing values are partly due to growing revenues from a bunch of passionate fans, whilst having their costs artificially restrained (player contracts, salary caps) through cartel practices, and because the league protects them from competition (restricting # of teams, # of teams in a local area, no promotion/relegation system). It's a great business to be in.

PS: I don't have exact figures for soccer team valuations, but by and large those have ballooned as well. I mean look at us, we were valued at 700-750m in the plc era and now reportedly Glazers' asking price is $4B. Look at these revenue figures 20 years ago, the numbers have easily increased 10 fold now. We are not poorly run as a business, we poorly run as a football club.
 
Suedesi said:
If you think sports aren't well-run businesses, you're probably wrong. Wealthy businessmen who purchase sports franchises, openly collaborate in an uncompetitive way, and monopolize their local markets don't do it for charity or the fun of it. If you look at the figures relating to the US:
  • In 2000, the average value of an MLB team was $238 million, and in 2016, the average value was $1.288 billion. This is an increase of $1.05 billion (441%).
  • In 2000, the average value of an NBA team was $183 million, and in 2016, the average value was $1,245 billion. This is an increase of $1.062 billion (580%).
  • In 2000, the average value of an NFL team was $423 million, and in 2015, the average value was $1.965 billion. This is an increase of $1.542 billion (365%).
  • In 2000, the average value of an NHL team was $148 million, and in 2015, the average value was $505 million. This is an increase of $357 million (241%).
So these enormously increasing values are partly due to growing revenues from a bunch of passionate fans, whilst having their costs artificially restrained (player contracts, salary caps) through cartel practices, and because the league protects them from competition (restricting # of teams, # of teams in a local area, no promotion/relegation system). It's a great business to be in.

PS: I don't have exact figures for soccer team valuations, but by and large those have ballooned as well. I mean look at us, we were valued at 700-750m in the plc era and now reportedly Glazers' asking price is $4B. Look at these revenue figures 20 years ago, the numbers have easily increased 10 fold now. We are not poorly run as a business, we poorly run as a football club.
Click to expand...

You're welcome to your own opinion. Mine is based on working with many sporting organisations, including some you've mentioned. They aren't well-run businesses. They do operate in very lucrative markets, which allows them not to act like well-run businesses, and they know it. I would agree that United are not a poorly run business, nor are they the norm.
 
_00_deathscar said:
But it's hard to ignore the insane number of assists he's accumulated in that period too - I think there was a 2010s chart earlier and Messi leads anyone else in assists (even known playmakers like Ozil etc) by quite a large margin.
What was interesting in that chart, though, is that the only two player to appear in both are Messi and Suarez - and both (well obviously Messi he's #1 in both) are in the top 5.
Click to expand...
KDB assist rate is better and it doesn't look like he's slowing down either.
 
I still miss the younger more explosive Messi. Now he's basicly a goal scoring Xavi. Which is not bad, but the younger Messi was more mesmerizing to watch.
 
Shamana said:
I still miss the younger more explosive Messi. Now he's basicly a goal scoring Xavi. Which is not bad, but the younger Messi was more mesmerizing to watch.
Click to expand...
Watching any elite sports person adapt and modify their game for Father Time - whilst still being dominant - is a joy in itself though.

Without that explosiveness and the usual array of physical advantages, we get see how their minds work; how they compensate and what they focus on to bridge the gaps.

Remember when Giggs moved inside and there were question marks over whether he had the game to cope there? After a career as a blisteringly fast winger some said he would not function without it, but he transformed the perception doubters had of him and got to display a mind as sharp as feet used to be. Ronaldo coming back without his Fenomeno attributes and having no choice but to play as a conventional striker really enhanced his legacy because it showed what he was about on a more.. granular level.

I think navigating age and coming up smelling of roses is something we appreciate because it's the last dance for these greats and the one that really brings home how special they are.

The Messi you refer to, the 'Playstation' one was more taken for granted because his attributes were just ridiculous. I think the snapshot of that Messi will be told in the annuls of time via footage highlight reels but the full essence of the player really needs this portion of his career for the roundedness it gives his brilliance.

There's talk of him being more likely a spent force by his mid 30's than someone like C.Ronaldo, but I just don't see it. He's got years and years left, if he wants them, just in different roles that are reliant on different parts of his skillset. It's an interesting and curious journey in itself to watch him go through - a 40-year old Messi would be no worse than a prime Riquelme, for example, but I doubt he'll want to play into his 5th decade although the avenue for him to do so will be there.

Excuse my tangential post - just a stream of thoughts that come to mind after seeing your post!
 
What are you guys talking about, he still beats defenders for fun and his agility and explosiveness haven't faded to any noticeable degree. He's still pretty much the same player he was in 2011
 
Fortitude said:
Watching any elite sports person adapt and modify their game for Father Time - whilst still being dominant - is a joy in itself though.

Without that explosiveness and the usual array of physical advantages, we get see how their minds work; how they compensate and what they focus on to bridge the gaps.

Remember when Giggs moved inside and there were question marks over whether he had the game to cope there? After a career as a blisteringly fast winger some said he would not function without it, but he transformed the perception doubters had of him and got to display a mind as sharp as feet used to be. Ronaldo coming back without his Fenomeno attributes and having no choice but to play as a conventional striker really enhanced his legacy because it showed what he was about on a more.. granular level.

I think navigating age and coming up smelling of roses is something we appreciate because it's the last dance for these greats and the one that really brings home how special they are.

The Messi you refer to, the 'Playstation' one was more taken for granted because his attributes were just ridiculous. I think the snapshot of that Messi will be told in the annuls of time via footage highlight reels but the full essence of the player really needs this portion of his career for the roundedness it gives his brilliance.

There's talk of him being more likely a spent force by his mid 30's than someone like C.Ronaldo, but I just don't see it. He's got years and years left, if he wants them, just in different roles that are reliant on different parts of his skillset. It's an interesting and curious journey in itself to watch him go through - a 40-year old Messi would be no worse than a prime Riquelme, for example, but I doubt he'll want to play into his 5th decade although the avenue for him to do so will be there.

Excuse my tangential post - just a stream of thoughts that come to mind after seeing your post!
Click to expand...

Has nothing to do with Messi and of course Ronaldo really regressed after his injuries, but occasionally he was still able to run at incredible speed. Saw a video recently of an 30+ year old and clearly overweight Ronaldo outpacing his defenders in the Brazilian league and allegedly clocking 36 kmh top speed. Looked really funny how a thick guy like him still managed to outrun his marker.

Never mind, I found it:

 
giorno said:
What are you guys talking about, he still beats defenders for fun and his agility and explosiveness haven't faded to any noticeable degree. He's still pretty much the same player he was in 2011
Click to expand...

He plays differently though. Relies less on his acceleration when dribbling - still magnificent, obviously. He still has this incredible burst of pace in him but he's using it less often nowadays - probably does that in order to prevent injuries.
 
Zehner said:
He plays differently though. Relies less on his acceleration when dribbling - still magnificent, obviously. He still has this incredible burst of pace in him but he's using it less often nowadays - probably does that in order to prevent injuries.
Click to expand...
Uh, not really, no. He still relies on it a lot
 
giorno said:
What are you guys talking about, he still beats defenders for fun and his agility and explosiveness haven't faded to any noticeable degree. He's still pretty much the same player he was in 2011
Click to expand...
He really really isn't. As great as he currently is, this is something that's easily noticeable. Messi isn't the same player anymore but the way he plays at this ridiculous level still is incredible.
What he used to do between 3-4 players was mind boggling, he cannot and doesn't do that anymore.
 
Shamana said:
I still miss the younger more explosive Messi. Now he's basicly a goal scoring Xavi. Which is not bad, but the younger Messi was more mesmerizing to watch.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I miss that Messi. Still he is awesome player to watch but peak Messi was so much more fun with insane dribbling, always making defenders look like pub level players.
 
Zehner said:
Has nothing to do with Messi and of course Ronaldo really regressed after his injuries, but occasionally he was still able to run at incredible speed. Saw a video recently of an 30+ year old and clearly overweight Ronaldo outpacing his defenders in the Brazilian league and allegedly clocking 36 kmh top speed. Looked really funny how a thick guy like him still managed to outrun his marker.

Never mind, I found it:

Click to expand...

He did have his moments with the pace in his final years, but it was very fleeting and no longer came with that multi-directional unpredictability (as in, if he was going to run hard, it'd usually be in a straight line with as few twists and turns as possible) and also the angst that he was about to blow his knee out by pushing his body like that. Strange times!

It took a lot of courage for someone with all those injuries to do testy things like that, I felt. He never gets enough credit for his mental strength post-severe injuries, for my liking!

Nice clip, btw.
 
giorno said:
Uh, not really, no. He still relies on it a lot
Click to expand...


He still does but from watching him play nowadays I'm under the impression that he relies much more on his anticipation and close control. He tries to set defenders on the wrong foot and uses many small body feints as well as his incredible balance and upper body strength when dribbling multiple opponents. You rarely see him flying past defenders as he used to do at full speed, IMO.
 
kouroux said:
He really really isn't. As great as he currently is, this is something that's easily noticeable. Messi isn't the same player anymore but the way he plays at this ridiculous level still is incredible.
What he used to do between 3-4 players was mind boggling, he cannot and doesn't do that anymore.
Click to expand...
He does that constantly. His dribbling numbers this season are more or less what they've been his entire career

What's changed is the team around him
 
Messi still has good acceleration but his top speed isn't anything special anymore. He used to dust them and never get caught, but people can catch him now which is the difference.

Still though in a tight pocket of space there isn't many better.
 
Adam-Utd said:
Messi still has good acceleration but his top speed isn't anything special anymore. He used to dust them and never get caught, but people can catch him now which is the difference.

Still though in a tight pocket of space there isn't many better.
Click to expand...

Messi's top speed never was impressive, his ball handling is what put him above anyone else, it's just tremendous.
 
adexkola said:
Yeah I've always got that impression as well... damage is done before it becomes a footrace.

Or he's running at a bamboozled defense and at that point speed matters less than being able to move with his turns and feints
Click to expand...
He's never been "about" top speed but I don't remember anybody ever catching him once he's off on a run put it that way.

Watch the link below and you'll see what I mean, it's the little steps that don't give a super fast impression but he's definitely accelerating well.

 
Adam-Utd said:
He's never been "about" top speed but I don't remember anybody ever catching him once he's off on a run put it that way.

Watch the link below and you'll see what I mean, it's the little steps that don't give a super fast impression but he's definitely accelerating well.

Click to expand...


Oh he wasn't slow by any means but a lot of forward could run faster than Messi. None of them were even close to having the ball control he had though.
 
Oly Francis said:
Oh he wasn't slow by any means but a lot of forward could run faster than Messi. None of them were even close to having the ball control he had though.
Click to expand...
That's the most impressive thing. The way he was still able to still dribble and control the ball with such efficiency while running at his top speed.
 
The sight of Messi in full flow is one of the most beautiful sights in all footy for me...

His running has an almost frantic quality due to his short legs, there's almost a violence in how hard and fast his steps batter the pitch - yet complete control, while causing utter chaos.

It's like a force of nature - a sperm beating all the others to the egg.

I can hear 'Flight of the Bumblebee' when he's in full flow (btw, that would make a great soundtrack to a Messi dribbling compilation!).
 
Adam-Utd said:
He's never been "about" top speed but I don't remember anybody ever catching him once he's off on a run put it that way.

Watch the link below and you'll see what I mean, it's the little steps that don't give a super fast impression but he's definitely accelerating well.

Click to expand...

I'd also add the way he also shifts his body to put himself between the ball and the defender made it tough for them to stop him.
 
Scores 4 goals in a game, 2 of which would probably be career highlights worthy for 99 per cent of professional footballers, and not so much as a peep on here.

The most insane sign of his genius remains how hes normalised his greatness to this extent.
 
2mufc0 said:
As a player he is model but can't do it all the time, there are behind the scenes dressing room videos showing some of his team talks, they don't look inspiring at all.
Click to expand...

Hearing an “inspiring” team talk Mighty Ducks style will work approximately twice. Barcelona are a winning machine and they’re pros, they don’t need that all the time.
 
Donaldo said:
Scores 4 goals in a game, 2 of which would probably be career highlights worthy for 99 per cent of professional footballers, and not so much as a peep on here.

The most insane sign of his genius remains how hes normalised his greatness to this extent.
Click to expand...

Sky losing La Liga might have a lot to do with it as well....
 
kouroux said:
I'd also add the way he also shifts his body to put himself between the ball and the defender made it tough for them to stop him.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, plus it’s all relative to the ball, his movement, so the defenders usually have no fixed destination they’re trying to reach. Messi isn’t a sprinter, but he has the fastest step in football and a way to make every step that step!!
 
Donaldo said:
Scores 4 goals in a game, 2 of which would probably be career highlights worthy for 99 per cent of professional footballers, and not so much as a peep on here.

The most insane sign of his genius remains how hes normalised his greatness to this extent.
Click to expand...
feck sake. I was planning on watching the match and then we had a power outage in our area for a blown fuse or something :mad:
 
Donaldo said:
Scores 4 goals in a game, 2 of which would probably be career highlights worthy for 99 per cent of professional footballers, and not so much as a peep on here.

The most insane sign of his genius remains how hes normalised his greatness to this extent.
Click to expand...



Best of the bunch
 
He's just incredible. At this point in time you could probably say that his finishing is even more impressive than his dribbling and passing.

If the Ballon D'Or wasn't about trophies but was actually awarded to the best player, he probably had 10+ already. I hope we'll see another player of his calibre after he retired but I'm not sure that will be the case.
 
RIP?
Really poor level throughout the game. Nothing doing either with dribbling or passing, didn't even get in position to shoot. Walked around the whole match. Lost most of his duels.

(Since this can be misconstrued, I meant RIP to the Messi who looks a level above on the pitch)
 
He obviously has declined and lost pace.

Messi of a few years ago scores 2 goals today IMO. Real were too open at the back for that not too happen
 
A clear loss of pace. 2010/11 Messi would have absolutely flown past today's Real.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.