Lionel Messi

Peyroteo said:
Barcelona clearly have a mentality problem and there is lack of leadership in the dressing room. Not just Messi's fault, the likes of Alba spent halftime at Anfield crying for 15 minutes while they were still only 1-0 down. Pique should be the cool head at the back but he becomes passive instead and doesn't comunicate. The body language of the players when they're in trouble in a big tie has been appalling, it's like they're defeated even though it's all still to play for.

If they had a Puyol there that doesn't happen. They might lose anyway but never like that where the team just crumbles completely.

Pretending that this is all irrelevant and the mental aspect of football has no impact on the game is plain wrong. As is putting the blame for Barcelona's problems all on Messi. He's the captain but he's never been that kind of captain and they should have found someone with those characteristics after Puyol and Xavi left.
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Xavi wasn't a "guts" captain, even in his last years the club was sunk in apathy (Roura and Martino seasons), and everyone in this thread seems to forget that the Roma fiasco happened with guys like Iniesta at the captaincy and Mascherano with his "cojones", his way of dealing with the NT situation post-netherlands in the 2014 WC wasn't the best for a captain either.

Thing is, this squad is depleted of emotion to overcome things, as we say in Spain they've already "done it all", from huge comebacks, to trebles, world cups, euros, leagues, copa runs... they just don't have in them the guts to throw a last hail Mary and fight a game to the end, when things go south you can read in Alba, Piqué or Busquets that "can't be happening to us, we're great, this is unfair" look, obviously Messi isn't going to be the one to bite their heads off, because it's neither his personality nor what the team needs from him.

We have a leech as president, non-respectable figures at the DoF sections (Pep Segura was there because of his connections, Robert wasn't some kind of commanding figure, and Abidal played with half of the roster but wasn't a leader), we have dull managers like Valverde (good at treating players, but lacked a spine) and Setien (who doesn't have the cache or the charisma to do a Luis Enrique and try to take the reins of the squad). Players get all of that, and the core that's been commanding our dressing room for years will remain complacent until someone unroots them from the club.

And regarding captancies, someone mentioned Ramos in this page, he gets a lot of praise because he's a charismatic guy in a team that has won 4 UCL titles but as captain material goes he's not top 5 in Spain, look at him "commanding" in the 2018 WC, leading by example... on how to screw up, or how he's got himself ejected in key games like vs Barcelona, the Ajax chapter, his desire to take penalties in the past when other strikers (like Benzema) could've used the moral boost of scoring. He's a primadonna, but he's not a better captain than, say, Navas, Koke, Joaquin, Soriano, Cazorla, Morales or Coke.

What we need is simple, we needed De Ligt to start phasing out Pique, we need to start saying goodbye to Busquets and build the team around FDJ as our DM, we needed a reliable striker to start eating Luis Suarez minutes and instead Suarez got Injured and we sold a forward, and we need a proper world class LB that can lock that wing up both in attack and defense. Not only are those positions key gameplay wise, they're also crucial in order to inject some new blood in the team.
 
DVG7 said:
I’ll never understand the need for someone like messi to want more money. He simply doesn’t need it. He could have retired at 25 and been set for life, his kids too. Why the hell do athletes always want more?
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When you gain so much, you want some more.

At least that's the main understanding of capitalism.
 
meamth said:
When you gain so much, you want some more.

At least that's the main understanding of capitalism.
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Basically greed. It is not a given, but most are drawn to making a lot.
It is like a drug or addiction eventually. Football is mine, but do not want more from the current United.
Some people are more down to earth and they probably enjoy life more overall. Spend time with your wife, kids, pets. Do simple fun things. Not focused on massive expensive things and celebrity lifestyle and changing your golddigger wife every year.
I will try to be the same when it comes to United. Seeing Liverpool though makes it very hard. Brings out the worst of us for sure.
 
Oly Francis said:
Maked sure THAT doesn't happen in his locker room at half time when you're only down 1-0 in CL for starters.
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Unbelievably churlish to blame Messi for this. Surely when professional players are this emotionally fragile at this level, you should be looking at the manager.
 
Paul_Scholes18 said:
Basically greed. It is not a given, but most are drawn to making a lot.
It is like a drug or addiction eventually. Football is mine, but do not want more from the current United.
Some people are more down to earth and they probably enjoy life more overall. Spend time with your wife, kids, pets. Do simple fun things. Not focused on massive expensive things and celebrity lifestyle and changing your golddigger wife every year.
I will try to be the same when it comes to United. Seeing Liverpool though makes it very hard. Brings out the worst of us for sure.
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Or it could mean these type of individuals are just binded by their unlimited ego.

Micheal Jordan, Lebron, CR7, Federer, etc.

Always competing to be the best/richest/goat, they cannot stop.

Legacies, riches and fame are their drugs.

If I were them, I would be like old Bruce Wayne, have a mansion somewhere on the hill, have a fancy butler, buy some toys, and bring back girls whenever i want to. :lol:
 
Scenes when Juve sign him and it’s Messi upfront with Ronaldo at long last!
 
Bwuk said:
Scenes when Juve sign him and it’s Messi upfront with Ronaldo at long last!
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He won't go anywhere. Everytime there's an issue within at Barcelona as there should be given how the club is run, people think Messi is leaving. As a captain, he's raising his voice and that's normal.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
I'd love to see that, but there's no way Juve can afford both wages.
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Would be fun for a bit, but also incredibly silly. The Italian league at the top end would become a complete farce. Would be more interesting if he went to Inter. But like I said, don't believe any of this talk. He'll be Barcelona for a number of years IMO before he moves possibly back to Argentina.
 
Oly Francis said:
And yet, had Messi's salary been lower, the club might have had the means to buy Neymar back last summer, who knows. Don't try to turn that into a black or white situation, the board making mistakes doesn't mean Messi's wage doesn't prevent Barcelona from buying even more players.
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They didn't. They couldn't sign Neymar last summer because they blew over 200m on De Jong and Griezmann

Messi's wages take up 1/5 of their wage bill. They don't really have any financial problems or restrictions
 
People criticizing Messi and co. for earning that muchnare so short sighted, IMO. It's not about greed, it's about insisting on your fair share of the money the club is making with you. When clubs are willing to pay that much, there's a reason for it: They're making more profit than it costs them.

Messi isn't playing for an NGO but a business that last year had a revenue of almost a billion.
 
Zehner said:
People criticizing Messi and co. for earning that muchnare so short sighted, IMO. It's not about greed, it's about insisting on your fair share of the money the club is making with you. When clubs are willing to pay that much, there's a reason for it: They're making more profit than it costs them.

Messi isn't playing for an NGO but a business that last year had a revenue of almost a billion.
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That's conclusively untrue. Many sports organisations are poorly run financially, and stars becoming bigger than the people running the organisation and creating a false sense of priorities has been a significant cause of many of the declines of the bigger sports organisations. Hence the prior discussion about Wade and Jordan, and there's examples of this across every sport.

It's hard to decide how much Messi is worth. The idea that they know how much an individual player is worth commercially - their contribution to sponsorship revenue, viewing figures, brand value etc. - is fictional. It's based on very flawed models. And a lot of the decisions made in sports are still about personalities in a negotiating room, and appearances, rather than the flawed econometric models they're using in the first place. They aren't good examples of well-run businesses, in general.

All businesses make bad decisions, sports organisations make them more often than other businesses with the same resources, and the decision to make in this case is very complicated with a lot of unknown factors. It would be entirely reasonable in that scenario for them to make the wrong decision, in at least one of these negotiations. And then it snowballs from there. Messi has no idea how much he's worth either. He just knows that other players in his team get x amount, other superstars in other teams get x amount, Barcelona are bringing in x more this year than last year, and he's still excelling while other players are getting worse. Anyone in that situation would want more money, not because they want the money, but they want the club to demonstrate they value them, it's about the principle. But none of that is based on strong financial logic, that's just not the environment they exist in.
 
Brwned said:
That's conclusively untrue. Many sports organisations are poorly run financially, and stars becoming bigger than the people running the organisation and creating a false sense of priorities has been a significant cause of many of the declines of the bigger sports organisations. Hence the prior discussion about Wade and Jordan, and there's examples of this across every sport.

It's hard to decide how much Messi is worth. The idea that they know how much an individual player is worth commercially - their contribution to sponsorship revenue, viewing figures, brand value etc. - is fictional. It's based on very flawed models. And a lot of the decisions made in sports are still about personalities in a negotiating room, and appearances, rather than the flawed econometric models they're using in the first place. They aren't good examples of well-run businesses, in general.

All businesses make bad decisions, sports organisations make them more often than other businesses with the same resources, and the decision to make in this case is very complicated with a lot of unknown factors. It would be entirely reasonable in that scenario for them to make the wrong decision, in at least one of these negotiations. And then it snowballs from there. Messi has no idea how much he's worth either. He just knows that other players in his team get x amount, other superstars in other teams get x amount, Barcelona are bringing in x more this year than last year, and he's still excelling while other players are getting worse. Anyone in that situation would want more money, not because they want the money, but they want the club to demonstrate they value them, it's about the principle. But none of that is based on strong financial logic, that's just not the environment they exist in.
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Very good post, much more detailed than mine. Of course it may be a mistake by Barcelona to pay him that much, they may have estimated his market value too highly etc. However, my point was that it is not despicable or greedy from a player to demand more when the club is makimg fortunes in revenue. It's not like he is taking away money from the poor, he's negotiating with one of the biggest players in a multi billion euro industry.
 
Zehner said:
People criticizing Messi and co. for earning that muchnare so short sighted, IMO. It's not about greed, it's about insisting on your fair share of the money the club is making with you. When clubs are willing to pay that much, there's a reason for it: They're making more profit than it costs them.

Messi isn't playing for an NGO but a business that last year had a revenue of almost a billion.
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Why did he dodge his taxes then?
 
meamth said:
Or it could mean these type of individuals are just binded by their unlimited ego.

Micheal Jordan, Lebron, CR7, Federer, etc.

Always competing to be the best/richest/goat, they cannot stop.

Legacies, riches and fame are their drugs.

If I were them, I would be like old Bruce Wayne, have a mansion somewhere on the hill, have a fancy butler, buy some toys, and bring back girls whenever i want to. :lol:
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Yeah I think someone like Ronaldo probably look at Messi. Does he earn more than me? If so he wants to earn more etc.
Think those big stars like Neymar, Messi Ronaldo might think like that.
 
giorno said:
They didn't. They couldn't sign Neymar last summer because they blew over 200m on De Jong and Griezmann

Messi's wages take up 1/5 of their wage bill. They don't really have any financial problems or restrictions
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Exactly. The Griezmann signing is what ended any chance of a Neymar deal going through.
 
Amongst the silly links of him leaving from The Sun I always thought he would go to City and Ronaldo would come back to Old Trafford in their late years. Of course the Sun says we are trying to sign him and Oo wee that would be glorious. Make it easier to attract players for sure
 
harms said:
I've heard about Ter Stegen, Griezmann and De Jong, I think, telling the management that the training regime was far too lenient. Last season Marca had compared the amount of rest days players were getting — in November Barca had 26 and Real Madrid had 17, and after that the gap kept growing.
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Sounds like the complaints from Bayern players concerning Ancelotti. Interestingly, both Ancelotti and Valverde are known for their man management. I hope the soap opera at Barcelona continues. The issues have definitely been magnified because of their poor form. When Messi refused to be substituted in Luis Enrique's first season, positioning LE to sub off Neymar instead, it went relatively under the radar. If that was to happen now, it would be portrayed as Messi wanting to join City
 
He's on what? $50m/year including bonus? That's nothing in the business world, for one of the greatest "entertainer" of all time. And he has only few years left on the tank. As much as I "dislike" him, that's not greedy.
 
Isotope said:
He's on what? $50m/year including bonus? That's nothing in the business world, for one of the greatest "entertainer" of all time. And he has only few years left on the tank. As much as I "dislike" him, that's not greedy.
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Thing is, as much as him being one of the goat, is he even comparable to Ronaldo's level of physical ability?

Ronaldo is a freak in that aspect, pretty much like Zlatan.

Messi, however, might not have this quality and to spend a tonne of money to lead United team, it's a huge gamble.

Imagine paying 32 year old Scholes that amount of money to be the main player for us.

He could well be in the down curve, but at least I think Ronaldo cam maintain that level of physical dedication. Messi, not so much, imo.
 
meamth said:
Thing is, as much as him being one of the goat, is he even comparable to Ronaldo's level of physical ability?

Ronaldo is a freak in that aspect, pretty much like Zlatan.

Messi, however, might not have this quality and to spend a tonne of money to lead United team, it's a huge gamble.

Imagine paying 32 year old Scholes that amount of money to be the main player for us.

He could well be in the down curve, but at least I think Ronaldo cam maintain that level of physical dedication. Messi, not so much, imo.
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Hah? I was talking about people claiming he's greedy demanding that salary at Barca.
And there's zero chance he wants to come here anyway.
 
The money we invest in him will be repaid in 2 years from sales and the aftersale of him to USA, no doubt about that.

Messi..come on, lad, we need you.
 
Sign him and feed him whatever Park was eating so We'll have a Messi with three lungs. Soon after, sign Ronalso and that's ManUnited future sorted.
 
Isotope said:
He's on what? $50m/year including bonus? That's nothing in the business world, for one of the greatest "entertainer" of all time. And he has only few years left on the tank. As much as I "dislike" him, that's not greedy.
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Football leaks revealed he's around 100M/year. Meaning he gets 1/10th of Barcelona's budget. The draft of the contract that was released included a 70M bonus if he was to stay until 2021 (on top of the 63,5M signing bonus he got). His fixed salary alone is supposed to be 70M/y.
 
mav_9me said:


https://www.football365.com/news/li...rd-goals-per-game-ronaldo-romario-pele-puskas

Read those two.
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There's no doubt about Messi's goalscoring greatness, but I find this a bit misleading. The catch is that to arrive at this conclusion...
So, to outshine Messi over an 11-year period, we had to go looking for the absolute best strikers in the game at their peak and combine them.
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...they count only one season per player (so no wonder you need 11 players to surpass Messi's 11 seasons). But the greatest scorers had multiple seasons on that level, and can hold their own against Messi individually - from a pure goalscoring standpoint only, of course.

For example: In 11 consecutive seasons between 66/67 and 76/77, Müller scored 464 goals in 470 games for Bayern (0.99 gpg). 532 in 532 when including NT games, which drags Messi's average down a bit.

But anyway, Messi's combination of volume scoring and creative genius is almost unprecedented, except perhaps for Pele. I also suspect Puskas may be underrated from this point of view, but there's little footage of his prime in the 50s.
 
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Synco said:
There's no doubt about Messi's goalscoring greatness, but I find this a bit misleading. The catch is that to arrive at this conclusion...

...they count only one season per player (so no wonder you need 11 players to surpass Messi's 11 seasons). But the greatest scorers had multiple seasons on that level, and can hold their own against Messi individually - from a pure goalscoring standpoint only, of course.

For example: In 11 consecutive seasons between 66/67 and 76/77, Müller scored 464 goals in 470 games for Bayern (0.99 gpg). 532 in 532 when including NT games, which drags Messi's average down a bit.

But anyway, Messi's combination of volume scoring and creative genius is almost unprecedented, except perhaps for Pele. I also suspect Puskas may be underrated from this point of view, but there's little footage of his prime in the 50s.
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Excellent point you make. I did not realize that. Thanks.
 
Yeah, would be interesting to see the best 11 ever individual seasons by any player (can be repeated) vs Messi's 11 seasons. To make it a bit more relevant id only use the big 4 leagues though.


edit: however, that 91 goals season record will be quite hard to break
 
MuranoLover said:
The money we invest in him will be repaid in 2 years from sales and the aftersale of him to USA, no doubt about that.

Messi..come on, lad, we need you.
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Except we don't. Messi is not Maradona. He cannot single-handedly improve weak teams. Case in point - Argentina National Team, which has not won anything, with Messi.

So, even if Messi wanted to come play for us, in the current shit form of ours, it would be a total waste for all parties involved.

Yes, we are fecked.
 
VanKenny said:
Yeah, would be interesting to see the best 11 ever individual seasons by any player (can be repeated) vs Messi's 11 seasons. To make it a bit more relevant id only use the big 4 leagues though.


edit: however, that 91 goals season record will be quite hard to break
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Just from a goalscoring perspective, Ronaldo in his peak 11 seasons and Muller as well probably have a claim (probably even better than Messi actually).

But it's hard to ignore the insane number of assists he's accumulated in that period too - I think there was a 2010s chart earlier and Messi leads anyone else in assists (even known playmakers like Ozil etc) by quite a large margin.
What was interesting in that chart, though, is that the only two player to appear in both are Messi and Suarez - and both (well obviously Messi he's #1 in both) are in the top 5.

He's tailed off a bit in the last couple of seasons, but I don't think it's quite appreciated just how good Suarez is/was in the 2010s as a whole - but specifically since his last full Ajax season all the way upto about two seasons back.
The comparisons with Aguero etc are not worthy, IMO - he's head and shoulders better. Lewandowski matches him as a striker alone, but Suarez is far, far better rounded (and these days a bit more rotund).
IMO quite clearly the best striker in the world since the original Ronaldo.

Others like Henry, Shevchenko, Lewandowski, Eto'o, Aguero etc are a clear step (or two in some cases) below.
 
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Oly Francis said:
I've never said they were robbing their clubs, but I can say that with salaries like that, they're hindering their clubs abilities to rebuild a team. Now obviously the board is to blame as well because they wasted a fortune on Dembele and Coutinho and it didn't pay off. But surely, giving Messi 100M/year doesn't help.
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This is a really dumb take. Messi is the number one reason why Barcelona tops the revenue tables amongst clubs globally, of course he's going to be compensated for it. Because, if Barca don't pay 20 other clubs will line up to sign him up.

If you want to talk about finances, Barca have fecked with Dembele, Coutinho and Griezmann. 430 million Euros in transfer fees, and Dembele has been a non-factor, Coutinho is on loan at Bayern Munchen and Griezmann is not pulling any trees. And they still have no replacement for Suarez. Atrocious squad building.

Madrid are much savvier in the market these days it seems.
 
_00_deathscar said:
Just from a goalscoring perspective, Ronaldo in his peak 11 seasons and Muller as well probably have a claim (probably even better than Messi actually).

But it's hard to ignore the insane number of assists he's accumulated in that period too - I think there was a 2010s chart earlier and Messi leads anyone else in assists (even known playmakers like Ozil etc) by quite a large margin.
What was interesting in that chart, though, is that the only two player to appear in both are Messi and Suarez - and both (well obviously Messi he's #1 in both) are in the top 5.

He's tailed off a bit in the last couple of seasons, but I don't think it's quite appreciated just how good Suarez is/was in the 2010s as a whole - but specifically since his last full Ajax season all the way upto about two seasons back.
The comparisons with Aguero etc are not worthy, IMO - he's head and shoulders better. Lewandowski matches him as a striker alone, but Suarez is far, far better rounded (and these days a bit more rotund).
IMO quite clearly the best striker in the world since the original Ronaldo.

Others like Henry, Shevchenko, Lewandowski, Eto'o, Aguero etc are a clear step (or two in some cases) below.
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I fully agree with this about Suarez

Btw Neymar doesn't make those charts because he hasn't played in enough games, on a per game basis he'd make the top 5 in both too
 
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