Lionel Messi

VanKenny said:
Im more familiar with FIFA ratings. Currently, Messi is a 94, then CR7 a 93 and i think Neymar a 92, and maybe Hazard i dont remember.

It really should be Messi 94, then CR7 83, Neymar 82 etc. And pretty much thats how it should have been the last 10 years or so. Hes on a league of his own and nobody comes close.
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It should be 99 or 100 for Messi. I’m not familiar with FIFA rankings, but I assume 100 is the max.
If Messi is 94, what does it look like when a player is 97, for example? This is why these video game rankings are a joke. Who is the pokemon that gets ranked 100 and is the measuring stick for the others? How did they come to Leo at 94?
Assuming there is still room for improvement between 94 and 100, what do you have to do to achieve that? What else can you do as a player?
 
zkap said:
It should be 99 or 100 for Messi. I’m not familiar with FIFA rankings, but I assume 100 is the max.
If Messi is 94, what does it look like when a player is 97, for example? This is why these video game rankings are a joke. Who is the pokemon that gets ranked 100 and is the measuring stick for the others? How did they come to Leo at 94?
Assuming there is still room for improvement between 94 and 100, what do you have to do to achieve that? What else can you do as a player?
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Pay taxes, hidden game attribute in FIFA
 
zkap said:
It should be 99 or 100 for Messi. I’m not familiar with FIFA rankings, but I assume 100 is the max.
If Messi is 94, what does it look like when a player is 97, for example? This is why these video game rankings are a joke. Who is the pokemon that gets ranked 100 and is the measuring stick for the others? How did they come to Leo at 94?
Assuming there is still room for improvement between 94 and 100, what do you have to do to achieve that? What else can you do as a player?
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While I think he's the GOAT, the current Messi could be better in several ways, at least when taking into account the metric the game uses. His shot power isn't the strongest, he could be much quicker both in regards to acceleration and top speed (obviously his age needs to be taken into account, but the game doesn't differentiate by age, obviously players begin to deteriorate as they get older), there are better headers of the ball than him and better jumpers, to name a few.

The game uses a formula I believe, taking into account all the possible traits a player could have, to devise their rating. The ideal player would be perfect in every attribute, which obviously will most likely never happen in the history of the sport.
 
The GOAT. Just sucks that we made the CL finals with that Barca team around.
 
Womp said:
While I think he's the GOAT, the current Messi could be better in several ways, at least when taking into account the metric the game uses. His shot power isn't the strongest, he could be much quicker both in regards to acceleration and top speed (obviously his age needs to be taken into account, but the game doesn't differentiate by age, obviously players begin to deteriorate as they get older), there are better headers of the ball than him and better jumpers, to name a few.

The game uses a formula I believe, taking into account all the possible traits a player could have, to devise their rating. The ideal player would be perfect in every attribute, which obviously will most likely never happen in the history of the sport.
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I see your point, but I disagree.

The game does use a formula alright, and it’s one that sees Ronaldo as close to Messi as possible. The attributes you list are impossible to be topped by one player, as great heading and jumping requires height, which in turn compromises agility, balance and technique just like strength compromises speed. One player can’t have everything, which is why the perfect defender has VVD’s build while the perfect forward has Messi’s attriubutes.

I understand that the overall score is an accumulation of individual attributes, but this can’t be down to math. A player like Messi has many shortcomings - jumping, heading, strength, marking to name a few, but that’s only when looking at general attributes of a random player. By that metric, Messi should be docked points for not being as good a goalie as Ter Stegen. All the while his passing, vision, technique and accuracy blow everyone else out of the water. There’s no balance there as his rating suggests he can be improved upon, but I don’t see how. More shot power means more strength, which means more muscle, which means less speed, which means no Messi.
 
Weird there has been no mention of Messi's winner in the Atletico game - very important goal that
 
MalcolmTucker said:
Weird there has been no mention of Messi's winner in the Atletico game - very important goal that
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like I've said couple of pages ago, it takes something special for this thread to be bumped now because we became used to his briliance. I mean, this thread was untouched until november even after some superb displays in CL & La Liga and those were his first minutes after he recovered from injuries. we have much higher standards for him than for other players and that's perfectly normal. that's why that goal vs Atletico simply isn't something worth bumping this thread. I'd say most of us are simply waiting for another freekick brace or hattrick.

another thing that's never mentioned is that he'll turn 33 in couple of months. it is often mentioned how the other, superfit player is 34 and how incredible is that he's still scoring at that age, like his glory is being stolen by some 23 old player. we sometimes forget that Messi is also in those years yet despite often playing deeper than in his youth, magic is still there. dribbling is still there. those passes are still there. he's actually improving in certain aspects of his game, like free kicks, even at this age. that's what certain posters could never understand in that thread, actually believing all those things were just a matter of aesthetics, not the matter of ability and skill.
 
Bole Top said:
another thing that's never mentioned is that he'll turn 33 in couple of months. it is often mentioned how the other, superfit player is 34 and how incredible is that he's still scoring at that age, like his glory is being stolen by some 23 old player. we sometimes forget that Messi is also in those years yet despite often playing deeper than in his youth, magic is still there. dribbling is still there. those passes are still there. he's actually improving in certain aspects of his game, like free kicks, even at this age. that's what certain posters could never understand in that thread, actually believing all those things were just a matter of aesthetics, not the matter of ability and skill.
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True. Messi is also ageing, but I think he's maintaining his level and even improving on it, while Ronaldo is declining. This isn't odd, since a lot of Ronaldo's game is based on his physical attributes as he used his speed, strength and explosiveness to dominate defenders. Losing that over the years, which is inevitable even for Ronaldo, he doesn't have a lot to show these days. On the other hand, Messi has transitioned to a midfielder role to some extent and is pulling virtually all the strings in Barcelona's game from farther back than he used to play.

Ironically, the narrative would have you believe it's actually Ronaldo who is the transformation artist, while Messi is no longer the Playstation player he once was. I think the opposite is true and Messi is steadily maintaining an extremely high level, while improving certain aspects like free kicks. He can do that even as he gets older, because he has technique, passing ability, accuracy and vision superior to other players.
It's also a matter of perspective, one is more likely to notice Ronaldo's physique as he is taller and relies more on runs and headers, while Messi pulls off moves that aren't as physically demanding. The fact these moves are impossible to pull off for other players because they don't have Messi's ability is ignored because Ronaldo has abs so he's automatically ageing more gracefully.
 
VanKenny said:
Wow, i didnt see that one coming. Honestly i thought it would be someone like Iniesta, i was WAY off.
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Yeah, Iniesta won't have many MotMs in regular games, he was neither a goal or an assist-machine and him playing well usually meant that the whole team is playing well and the attackers are getting a great service throughout the game. His MotM record in big games is on another level though, he is well in consideration for being the best big-game player of all-time. When his team does not steamrolls its opponent, like Barcelona & Spain did in 90% of their games, he steps up to win it, when it does, he's happy to let other players have fun and boost their stats up.

Not only has he guided his side to victory in the likes of the Champions League, Euro's and World Cup, but he's also been named 'Man of the Match' in each final.
In 2010, Spain beat the Netherlands to win their first World Cup courtesy of a 116th minute winner from Iniesta. He produced a 'Man of the Match' performance in South Africa.
Iniesta wheels away in celebration after scoring in the World Cup final. Two years later, Spain won back-to-back European Championships. Iniesta got his hands on another European title, after thrashing their Italian counterparts with Iniesta masterminding their downfall, while also being named 'Player of the Tournament'. Barcelona's last Champions League triumph came in 2015. Iniesta's heroics in the middle of the park saw him pick up 'Man of the Match' honours.
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Add to that the screamer against Chelsea that sent Barcelona to the CL final, a game-changing performance as a sub in the 2006 CL final, usually incredible performances in El Clasicos...
 
zkap said:
It should be 99 or 100 for Messi. I’m not familiar with FIFA rankings, but I assume 100 is the max.
If Messi is 94, what does it look like when a player is 97, for example? This is why these video game rankings are a joke. Who is the pokemon that gets ranked 100 and is the measuring stick for the others? How did they come to Leo at 94?
Assuming there is still room for improvement between 94 and 100, what do you have to do to achieve that? What else can you do as a player?
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To be fair, if the rating is compiled by combining different attributes, that are the same for every player, today's Messi is going to score low in workrate/defensive contribution/heading, which is going to affect his final score. So, unless you intervene and manually change his rating to 98/99, he's going to have this (unfairly low) rating.
 
harms said:
To be fair, if the rating is compiled by combining different attributes, that are the same for every player, today's Messi is going to score low in workrate/defensive contribution/heading, which is going to affect his final score. So, unless you intervene and manually change his rating to 98/99, he's going to have this (unfairly low) rating.
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Workrates don't count towards rating, and players can get to 99 rating without stats in other key areas, overall rating depends on the position and international reputation of a player, some RB's saw their rating drastically changing without stat swaps just because they went from RB to RWB, and RWB rating puts more emphasis on offensive stats.

If Leo is 94 rated or Ronaldo 93 on their base cards is because EA knows that they'll have to release special cards (In Forms, Player of the Month, TOTY and TOTS) that will end up rising their rating to 99 anyway, so they want to release the best player at ~94 rating leaving place for another 5 cards to lure players into buying packs and keeping the market moving.

That has an effect in the appreciation people have about him too, most attackers would have maybe even 10 in forms if they played like Messi a bunch of games/season, at the end of the day that polarizes opinions from players/football fans and it ends up normalizing Leo's performances, that's just another notch on the constant underrating of his performances almost every week.

Matching a real life rating of a player to videogames was already a bad idea back in the 90's when the best player could get a 99 overall and it was over, now that there's other things at stake it's totally useless.
 
zkap said:
It should be 99 or 100 for Messi. I’m not familiar with FIFA rankings, but I assume 100 is the max.
If Messi is 94, what does it look like when a player is 97, for example? This is why these video game rankings are a joke. Who is the pokemon that gets ranked 100 and is the measuring stick for the others? How did they come to Leo at 94?
Assuming there is still room for improvement between 94 and 100, what do you have to do to achieve that? What else can you do as a player?
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It also depends on the position.

As a pure striker, Messi is only like a 93 because he doesnt have the height or strenght to play with CBs toe to toe, so he relies on his dribbling and genius mind to beat them.
As a winger, he doesnt have the perfect cross, and doesnt have the speed and acceleration of somebody like Mbappe (he used to but that was 10 years ago)
As a midfielder he lacks defensive contribuition and probably lacks the stamina needed to be running around for the entire game


So his best position is center forward, just behind the striker, but he still lacks a perfect right foot, top speed and acceleration, rarely pressures defense because he saves his stamina for attacking, he doesnt have the perfect free kicks, etc.

For Messi to be a 99, he would need to have everything at elite, GOAT level. His dribbling and speed is not the greatest of all time for example. Hes the best in the world, but still there is someone else that beats him on those attributes, and thats 2011 Messi. On free kicks, maybe Juninho beats him just by a small margin. On shooting i dont think there has been anyone better but there could be, as Messi isnt perfect here, he still misses quite a bit.

Anyway you get my point. For Messi to be 99 he would basically have to be the perfect player in every stat. He is currently the closest we have to perfect but still, there is room for improvement. A fusion of 2011 Messi and 2018/19 Messi would be the closest we can get to the perfect forward.


The problem isnt Messi being 94, the problem is the others being so close to him. They should be upper 80's at most.
 
Who cares about Fifa ratings. FM Ratings are way better, I'm pretty sure he's 199/200 on there.

Edit: On FM17 he's 200/200 :lol:
 
Ish said:
Anyone have a translation on everything he said during his win last night, in English please?
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He first thanked his teammates, family, friends etc and then he gave his speech.

"I remember my first Balon de Oro, i came here to Paris when i was just 22 years old, those were different times for me, i came with my three brothers, it was something incredible, and now 10 years later im in a very different moment of my personal life, its a very special moment as today i come with my woman and my three kids, accompanied with my brother and a nephew

As my woman was saying on her message, all this time i never stopped dreaming, never stopped wanting to grow as a player, to keep improving day to day, and above all that, to keep enjoying the game of football. Thank God that i can do what i started to love back when i was one or two years old, and hopefully God lets me have a few more years of enjoying this sport. I am aware of my age, so moments like this are enjoyed much more as the time for my retirement gets closer and closer, and that is tough. I repeat, even if i still have more years left of football, nowadays it seems like time flies and that everything happens way too fast. I just hope to keep enjoying Football, my family, my rivals and this life that i have"


I translated it myself from some newspaper so it may not be perfectly accurate but thats pretty much what he said give or take a few words.
 
Its crazy how this thread quickly died even after Messi won his 6th balon de or', its like he isnt even a part of football anymore, he does something amazing and everybody is like "Meh, its Messi".

I think we are witnessing the greatest of all time playing football, i encourage everyone to see as much games of him as possible while he is still at his best level, you will thank yourself in a few decades.
 
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VanKenny said:
Its crazy how this thread quickly died even after Messi won his 6th balon de or', its like he isnt even a part of football anymore, he does something amazing and everybody is like "Meh, its Messi".

I think we are witnessing the greatest of all time playing football, i encourage everyone to see as much games of him as possible while he is still at his best level, you will thank yourself in a few decades.
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It's crazy really. I wish, I was a Barcelona fan. I missed way too much of him live. Imagine living in Barcelona and having a season ticket every year to watch Messi make everyone else look like amateurs for 12 years.
 
Shamana said:
It's crazy really. I wish, I was a Barcelona fan. I missed way too much of him live. Imagine living in Barcelona and having a season ticket every year to watch Messi make everyone else look like amateurs for 12 years.
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You were you were a Barcelona fan?
 
I'm curious how long he will stay at this level. He is the type of player who should last until 40 in theory. Doesn't defend, doesn't move much off the ball so doesn't rely on pace, covers only about 7 - 8 km every game, greatest strenght is his game intelligence and passing. Mentally he might be exhausted in 2 or 3 years, that aspect shouldn't be underrated. Wonder why it's not common for 30+ players to take a season long sabbatical. I feel if Messi paused for 1 year at 34 he could come back at 35 and last at elite level until 40 with ease.
 
Cait Sith said:
I'm curious how long he will stay at this level. He is the type of player who should last until 40 in theory. Doesn't defend, doesn't move much off the ball so doesn't rely on pace, covers only about 7 - 8 km every game, greatest strenght is his game intelligence and passing. Mentally he might be exhausted in 2 or 3 years, that aspect shouldn't be underrated. Wonder why it's not common for 30+ players to take a season long sabbatical. I feel if Messi paused for 1 year at 34 he could come back at 35 and last at elite level until 40 with ease.
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I think he can play at a very very high level till 40. But going by his retirement comments I don't think he'll want to. I know he said being level on Ballon Dors hurt him but he just doesnt seem the type who wants all these goal records and what have you. For him it just seems a casual by product of elite level peformances.
 
VJ1762 said:
The GOAT. Just sucks that we made the CL finals with that Barca team around.
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Meh. It's an often quoted but poor excuse.

Other teams have won the champions league during the Iniesta and Messi years.
Outside of those years we didn't win much in Europe except a couple of fortunate final performances against Bayern and Chelsea.

The fact is that SAF only won 2 European cups in 20-25 years. It's something I accepted a long time ago - that SAF is the greatest domestic manager ever in England. But in Europe, for the funds and resources he had at his disposal - his record is not too hot.
 
Lay said:
Who cares about Fifa ratings. FM Ratings are way better, I'm pretty sure he's 199/200 on there.

Edit: On FM17 he's 200/200 :lol:
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Wait, what? When I played on FM17 against Barca, the one who caused me the most grief is Neymar instead of him.

Back on topic, he's now 2nd on the La Liga top scorer list this season despite missing the early parts (I think 3 weeks?) through injury. He also hits 80% of his shots on target.
 
VanKenny said:
Its crazy how this thread quickly died even after Messi won his 6th balon de or', its like he isnt even a part of football anymore, he does something amazing and everybody is like "Meh, its Messi".

I think we are witnessing the greatest of all time playing football, i encourage everyone to see as much games of him as possible while he is still at his best level, you will thank yourself in a few decades.
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Spot on! I live in Canada but made two separate trips to Spain in the past year just to see him. Was able to catch 6 Barca matches and it’s something I’ll never forget.
 
Crazy to hear him mentioning retirement, in any capacity, right now.

I see a lot of comments in here about what he does on a football pitch being taken for granted, but the reality is that for any true great in any sport, their base level is processed and assimilated, and their measure of greatness taken from what they do against those deemed to be their peers in the biggest, most important games on the grandest stages available to them.

Whether fair or not, the yardstick for players like Messi is more in performance in maybe 20 elite games in an international season, and perhaps 12 or so in a normal one. That's not to say the rest of the season, against opposition Barcelona/Messi are supposed to trounce don't count, but rather it's nothing that will earn plaudits in isolation without big performances in the aforementioned elite games.

All truly great sports people are measured by a different set of metrics to those outside the tier they reside in. It's definitely not Messi alone who is a victim of his own ability as we see it - obviously not to the same extent - with someone like Neymar, who, let's face it, has been solely reduced to what he does or does not do in the K.O. stages of the C.L. and any latterly stage for his country, since moving to P.S.G.

Being better than players you will always be better than does not capture the imagination in anything like the same manner as being the top dog against opponents who are being hailed as the next big thing or usurpers to the established order. The general public want to see gods collide in battles for the ages; I don't think it's a particularly bad thing, either.

Messi is accepted as peerless in La Liga - I think that's about the greatest acknowledgement that can be bestowed upon any great in any league. By proxy, and as a consequence, however, said player has to do extraordinary things (even for him) for acclaim on top of acclaim, rather than an accepted level of standardisation that renders their normal another players great, and their good another players performance of a season or even career.

Such is life. Heavy the head that wears the crown, and all that.
 
The reactions when he actually does retire will be crazy, I think. Human nature. You get used to something and only when it is taken away from you you learn to appreciate it. It was a similar story when R9 and Ronaldinho retired and it will be the same with Messi. Many casual football fans will watch compilations of him and they'll probably see many of his incredible but not sonpopular plays, especially in his later years, for the first time.
 
zkap said:
It should be 99 or 100 for Messi. I’m not familiar with FIFA rankings, but I assume 100 is the max.
If Messi is 94, what does it look like when a player is 97, for example? This is why these video game rankings are a joke. Who is the pokemon that gets ranked 100 and is the measuring stick for the others? How did they come to Leo at 94?
Assuming there is still room for improvement between 94 and 100, what do you have to do to achieve that? What else can you do as a player?
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He's be a few points higher if the team he plays for wasn't a complete mess. People seem to equate a players quality with how much well his team does in the CL these days. Put him in the Liverpool team and he'd have won the Ballon D'or by 200 points instead of just a few. FIFA is likely subject to the same stupid thinking.

If a player is the best playmaker AND best goalscorer in the world at the same time he should be higher than 94. It's like mastering football.
 
VanKenny said:
He first thanked his teammates, family, friends etc and then he gave his speech.

"I remember my first Balon de Oro, i came here to Paris when i was just 22 years old, those were different times for me, i came with my three brothers, it was something incredible, and now 10 years later im in a very different moment of my personal life, its a very special moment as today i come with my woman and my three kids, accompanied with my brother and a nephew

As my woman was saying on her message, all this time i never stopped dreaming, never stopped wanting to grow as a player, to keep improving day to day, and above all that, to keep enjoying the game of football. Thank God that i can do what i started to love back when i was one or two years old, and hopefully God lets me have a few more years of enjoying this sport. I am aware of my age, so moments like this are enjoyed much more as the time for my retirement gets closer and closer, and that is tough. I repeat, even if i still have more years left of football, nowadays it seems like time flies and that everything happens way too fast. I just hope to keep enjoying Football, my family, my rivals and this life that i have"


I translated it myself from some newspaper so it may not be perfectly accurate but thats pretty much what he said give or take a few words.
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This somehow makes me feel feelings.
 
Fortitude said:
Crazy to hear him mentioning retirement, in any capacity, right now.

I see a lot of comments in here about what he does on a football pitch being taken for granted, but the reality is that for any true great in any sport, their base level is processed and assimilated, and their measure of greatness taken from what they do against those deemed to be their peers in the biggest, most important games on the grandest stages available to them.

Whether fair or not, the yardstick for players like Messi is more in performance in maybe 20 elite games in an international season, and perhaps 12 or so in a normal one. That's not to say the rest of the season, against opposition Barcelona/Messi are supposed to trounce don't count, but rather it's nothing that will earn plaudits in isolation without big performances in the aforementioned elite games.

All truly great sports people are measured by a different set of metrics to those outside the tier they reside in. It's definitely not Messi alone who is a victim of his own ability as we see it - obviously not to the same extent - with someone like Neymar, who, let's face it, has been solely reduced to what he does or does not do in the K.O. stages of the C.L. and any latterly stage for his country, since moving to P.S.G.

Being better than players you will always be better than does not capture the imagination in anything like the same manner as being the top dog against opponents who are being hailed as the next big thing or usurpers to the established order. The general public want to see gods collide in battles for the ages; I don't think it's a particularly bad thing, either.

Messi is accepted as peerless in La Liga - I think that's about the greatest acknowledgement that can be bestowed upon any great in any league. By proxy, and as a consequence, however, said player has to do extraordinary things (even for him) for acclaim on top of acclaim, rather than an accepted level of standardisation that renders their normal another players great, and their good another players performance of a season or even career.

Such is life. Heavy the head that wears the crown, and all that.
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He was top scorer in Cl last season and 2nd highest CL topscorer of all time.
 
Fortitude said:
Crazy to hear him mentioning retirement, in any capacity, right now.

I see a lot of comments in here about what he does on a football pitch being taken for granted, but the reality is that for any true great in any sport, their base level is processed and assimilated, and their measure of greatness taken from what they do against those deemed to be their peers in the biggest, most important games on the grandest stages available to them.

Whether fair or not, the yardstick for players like Messi is more in performance in maybe 20 elite games in an international season, and perhaps 12 or so in a normal one. That's not to say the rest of the season, against opposition Barcelona/Messi are supposed to trounce don't count, but rather it's nothing that will earn plaudits in isolation without big performances in the aforementioned elite games.

All truly great sports people are measured by a different set of metrics to those outside the tier they reside in. It's definitely not Messi alone who is a victim of his own ability as we see it - obviously not to the same extent - with someone like Neymar, who, let's face it, has been solely reduced to what he does or does not do in the K.O. stages of the C.L. and any latterly stage for his country, since moving to P.S.G.

Being better than players you will always be better than does not capture the imagination in anything like the same manner as being the top dog against opponents who are being hailed as the next big thing or usurpers to the established order. The general public want to see gods collide in battles for the ages; I don't think it's a particularly bad thing, either.

Messi is accepted as peerless in La Liga - I think that's about the greatest acknowledgement that can be bestowed upon any great in any league. By proxy, and as a consequence, however, said player has to do extraordinary things (even for him) for acclaim on top of acclaim, rather than an accepted level of standardisation that renders their normal another players great, and their good another players performance of a season or even career.

Such is life. Heavy the head that wears the crown, and all that.
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In general you have a point but in this case it's in my opinion even simpler than that. Most have accepted Messi's level, he is above everyone currently and probably since the beginning of Football and he shows it on an almost weekly basis which means that there is no amazement anymore. It doesn't prevent us from enjoying his genius but there is nothing new to say, there is no conversation or debate that hasn't been settled a long time ago.
 
His retirement will leave a gap in Barca the size Fergie left us. No matter how well they prepare, just his presence at the club can't be replaced.

Imagine the impact he'd have if you were playing 5s at your local Goals and Messi stops by to watch. That's what his team mates feel even when he's not on the field.

GOAT
 
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