Lionel Messi

I_live_cement said:
Imagine being this deluded.
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You say that but there is absolutely nothing you can say that can discredit anything I just said.

Because that is not even touching on the mental side of the game the thing that makes MJ and Brady the GOATS in their respective sports. The things Messi obviously does not have, the constant final losses and things like choking a 3-0 lead and then a 4-0 lead are testament to that.

I can already assume you and other Messi Fan girls will say "tHe mEnTaL pArT dOeS nOT mAttEr bEcAuSe bLaH bLah bLAH"
 
SportingCP96 said:
You say that but there is absolutely nothing you can say that can discredit anything I just said.

Because that is not even touching on the mental side of the game the thing that makes MJ and Brady the GOATS in their respective sports. The things Messi obviously does not have, the constant final losses and things like choking a 3-0 lead and then a 4-0 lead are testament to that.

I can already assume you and other Messi Fan girls will say "tHe mEnTaL pArT dOeS nOT mAttEr bEcAuSe bLaH bLah bLAH"
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Are you 10? Get a grip ffs. :rolleyes:
 
SportingCP96 said:
You say that but there is absolutely nothing you can say that can discredit anything I just said.

Because that is not even touching on the mental side of the game the thing that makes MJ and Brady the GOATS in their respective sports. The things Messi obviously does not have, the constant final losses and things like choking a 3-0 lead and then a 4-0 lead are testament to that.

I can already assume you and other Messi Fan girls will say "tHe mEnTaL pArT dOeS nOT mAttEr bEcAuSe bLaH bLah bLAH"
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I just don't understand this reasoning. Is it always Messi's fault when his team chokes when he does his job of scoring goals and creating chances? Ronaldo did his job last year in the CL, but it's not his fault that Juventus were schooled by a youth side in Ajax. It's not Messi's or Ronaldo's job to lead the defense.
 
Shamana said:
I just don't understand this reasoning. Is it always Messi's fault when his team chokes when he does his job of scoring goals and creating chances? Ronaldo did his job last year in the CL, but it's not his fault that Juventus were schooled by a youth side in Ajax. It's not Messi's or Ronaldo's job to lead the defense.
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Yes and no because if you have a 3-0 lead and a 4-0 lead as an example you as "the best player in the world" should take the game by the scruff of the neck and end any possibility of an embarrassment like the ones that happened. Back to back the same result and its also the body language he begins to sulk and waddle around the pitch. That to me though is not even my biggest Jibe. After losing a penalty shootout in a final for your country where you missed the penalty that causes your team to lose you then quit from your national team and say "feck it I quit". I don't care what anyone says that is weak and shows a lot about his mental fortitude. Not everyone is born with that mindset I mean look at Brady who is not even the most talented QB ever but he is undoubtedly the best QB of all time and it all stems from his mental fortitude.

Messi is fecking brilliant and a joy to watch but to me he is the second best.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Yes and no because if you have a 3-0 lead and a 4-0 lead as an example you as "the best player in the world" should take the game by the scruff of the neck and end any possibility of an embarrassment like the ones that happened. Back to back the same result and its also the body language he begins to sulk and waddle around the pitch. That to me though is not even my biggest Jibe. After losing a penalty shootout in a final for your country where you missed the penalty that causes your team to lose you then quit from your national team and say "feck it I quit". I don't care what anyone says that is weak and shows a lot about his mental fortitude. Not everyone is born with that mindset I mean look at Brady who is not even the most talented QB ever but he is undoubtedly the best QB of all time and it all stems from his mental fortitude.

Messi is fecking brilliant and a joy to watch but to me he is the second best.
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It's fair enough, but this mythical player who scores the winning goals in every single knock-out simply doesn't exist.
 
Shamana said:
It's fair enough, but this mythical player who scores the winning goals in every single knock-out simply doesn't exist.
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He does not but do you think Messi gets no blame in a 3-0 and 4-0 lead being lost in back to back seasons? I think it is being very generous.
 
Shamana said:
I just don't understand this reasoning. Is it always Messi's fault when his team chokes when he does his job of scoring goals and creating chances? Ronaldo did his job last year in the CL, but it's not his fault that Juventus were schooled by a youth side in Ajax. It's not Messi's or Ronaldo's job to lead the defense.
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It is idiotic logic.
 
adexkola said:
I'm not arguing with you. You think Ronaldo inspired Portugal to a Euro win from the sideline and that's a level of delusion I don't care to dip into this morning.
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Answer this. Don't give me a long answer just say yes or no.. Would Portugal have been In the final without Ronaldo? If the answer is no then what you just wrote should be thrown in the garbage because you proved my point. If you say yes then the only deluded one is you.
 
SportingCP96 said:
He does not but do you think Messi gets no blame in a 3-0 and 4-0 lead being lost in back to back seasons? I think it is being very generous.
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Not if he's done his job. If Barcelona's defense turn into a joke it's not the team's nr 10's fault. This player that deliver's the CL on a platter every year doesn't exist. It took Ronaldo 5 years to win the CL with Real Madrid despite making 2 consecutive finals and winning one with Man Utd just before. Is that because Ronaldo bottled it or because it took time for Real Madrid to become a great team?
 
SportingCP96 said:
Answer this. Don't give me a long answer just say yes or no.. Would Portugal have been In the final without Ronaldo? If the answer is no then what you just wrote should be thrown in the garbage because you proved my point. If you say yes then the only deluded one is you.
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Do you think Argentina would have made it to a WC Final without Messi?
 
Shamana said:
Do you think Argentina would have made it to a WC Final without Messi?
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He had a grand Toal of 0 goals and I believe 1 assist in the knockout games so it can be argued yes thus the quality of Argentina.

Ronaldo got Portugal out of the group stage* R16 goal came from his deflected shot* Scored the Penalty and inspired his teammates in the QF shootout something Messi knows nothing about think 2016* Scored in the Semifinal and his shot led to Nani goal for the 2-0 as well*

So let me get this straight he was the main reason they even crawled out the group stage and then the main reason they crawled to a final. Woah well look at that.

Also you never answered my question;)
 
SportingCP96 said:
He had a grand Toal of 0 goals and I believe 1 assist in the knockout games so it can be argued yes thus the quality of Argentina.

Ronaldo got Portugal out of the group stage* R16 goal came from his deflected shot* Scored the Penalty and inspired his teammates in the QF shootout something Messi knows nothing about think 2016* Scored in the Semifinal and his shot led to Nani goal for the 2-0 as well*

So let me get this straight he was the main reason they even crawled out the group stage and then the main reason they crawled to a final. Woah well look at that.

Also you never answered my question;)
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Which question is that?
 
Shamana said:
Not if he's done his job. If Barcelona's defense turn into a joke it's not the team's nr 10's fault. This player that deliver's the CL on a platter every year doesn't exist. It took Ronaldo 5 years to win the CL with Real Madrid despite making 2 consecutive finals and winning one with Man Utd just before. Is that because Ronaldo bottled it or because it took time for Real Madrid to become a great team?
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So Ronaldo has not constantly taken his team on his back in the CL? Would Messi have scored the 95th min penalty vs Juve a few years ago? or would he choke?

If Barca was down 2-0 vs a defensive team that is hard to break down like atletico would Messi then go and score a hat trick to win them the tie? Ronaldo has done it on 2 separate occasions.

Back to back season a 3-0 and 4-0 lead was lost an Messi was no where to be found. You are trying to hard to defend him.
 
Shamana said:
Which question is that?
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Does Portugal make the final in the Euro without Ronaldo? I mentioned all his goals and chances created from him from group stage to the Semis in the last post.

Yes or no?
 
SportingCP96 said:
Does Portugal make the final in the Euro without Ronaldo? I mentioned all his goals and chances created from him from group stage to the Semis in the last post.

Yes or no?
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Or more like does Portugal make it to the Final if we'd still be using the old rules? :lol:
 
SportingCP96 said:
Does Portugal make the final in the Euro without Ronaldo? I mentioned all his goals and chances created from him from group stage to the Semis in the last post.

Yes or no?
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No, they probably wouldn't. Nobody is denying Ronaldo's greatness. I am just saying that this flawless mythical player who wins every game on his own doesn't exist.
 
Shamana said:
No, they probably wouldn't. Nobody is denying Ronaldo's greatness. I am just saying that this flawless mythical player who wins every game on his own doesn't exist.
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Mate I agree with that its all context I am saying in terms of the 3-0 lead and 4-0 lead choked saying Messi does not take blame in that is very generous and naive. Obviously him or no player cant decide every tie its not realistic but as Ronaldo did last year vs Atletico I don't think Messi has the extra layer of skin to lead a team back from a tie like that.

Also the question was not even meant for you it was the other poster who claimed Ronaldo had no part tp play in Portugal winning the Euro. I thought you were him until I saw the name just now:boring:
 
SportingCP96 said:
Mate I agree with that its all context I am saying in terms of the 3-0 lead and 4-0 lead choked saying Messi does not take blame in that is very generous and naive. Obviously him or no player cant decide every tie its not realistic but as Ronaldo did last year vs Atletico I don't think Messi has the extra layer of skin to lead a team back from a tie like that.
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Messi has his share of the blame, but he was last years CL topscorer. He can't score a brace or hattrick in ever single knockout tie. To win every single title every single year.

Messi probably probably couldn't score a hattrick like Ronaldo's last year because he's a miget playing long balls into the box isn't going to work for him.
 
Shamana said:
Messi has his share of the blame, but he was last years CL topscorer. He can't score a brace or hattrick in ever single knockout tie. To win every single title every single year.

Messi probably probably couldn't score a hattrick like Ronaldo's last year because he's a miget playing long balls into the box isn't going to work for him.
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Ronaldo did it for 3 years straight on route to a CL 3 peat so it can be done;):D:devil:
 
Argentina doesn't pass the group stages in 2014 if not for Messi. Sure he was relatively modest the rest of the way but just getting them past the group stages and he did half the part at least. Hell, Argentina doesn't make the last World Cup without Messi's heroics against Ecuador. Argentina without Messi won just 7 points in 8 matches, a rate good enough for 8th place in conmebol, however, with him they won 21 in 10 games rate good enough for a second place, 3 points behind Brazil.

Only a blind fan could deny the impact Messi had for Argentina in the last 10 years.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Ronaldo did it for 3 years straight on route to a CL 3 peat so it can be done;):D:devil:
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There is no doubt that Ronaldo is the CL knockout all-time great. But it still took him 5 years to win it for Madrid. There are many factors to a team sport.
 
Shamana said:
There is no doubt that Ronaldo is the CL knockout all-time great. But it still took him 5 years to win it for Madrid. There are many factors to a team sport.
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I agree with that I am not denying it.
 
Anyone know what's up with his injury, again not involved in Barca 18 tonight. Pretty sure he was training a few weeks back so must've suffered a setback.
 
SportingCP96 said:
New league new team new coach new tactics in a team that is not attacking at all. This season already at 6 in 4 games and I would bet he gets a minimum of 40.

Messi has played a safe career in Barca and until he proves to be the same player outside of them and the Spanish league this convo is Pointless. He hasn’t shown it and he won’t. Ronaldo will be 38 and still bang in 25 goals a season 2 completely different animals

One played his whole career in 1 team and his best period was in the greatest team of all time with arguably a top 3 coach of all time.

Ronaldo dominated England wins a CL there. Goes to Spain dominated Spain and wins a FOUR CL there including a 3 peat with him being the MAIN reason for said accomplishment. He then moves to get another league and team and I would bet my bottom dollar he wins another CL with Juve. Unparalleled.

Ronaldo in Portugal? The same animal he is at club level and will break the all time goals record with over 100 something goals. Ohh and he was the main reason Portugal step foot in a second ever European final and wins a unprecedented Trophy in the history of Portugal. He was also one of the main reasons they got to there first ever final with a tender age of 19.

This in fact is tedious and is the definition of murder with words, Messi will go down as the second best players of this generation and that is a great feat in general so hats off too him.
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See, all these things have happened already and still, the vast majority of football fans thinks that Messi is the better player. There is not really a representative survey around of cpurse but so far every piece of evident, poll and so forth points in that direction. Why would that change after both have retired? What makes you believe that once both players hung up their boots a sudden shift in public perception will happen?

If you ask me most people simply don't judge players the way you do. They watch them with their eyes and build their opinions. Titles and all that stuff matters but not with the priority you assign it. You not only have to look at what they achieved but how they did it. And having watched both play during their primes, Messi simply edges it. 'Edges' is IMO even the wrong term since it's a comfortable margin. Even if Cristiano's title cabinet might be a little more glorious (which in itself is a debatable statement) that's not enough to make up the distance Messi is in front purely lookibg at the footballer. And it seems that the majority of fans thinks like me.

I even expect this general tendency to become more significant once Messi retires. Look at the reactions to the (semi-) retirements of Robben, Iniesta etc. People dig up their best plays, create hour long compilations and so forth. The prime example of that is R9. When he retired people remembered how good he used to be. It'll be the same with Messi. People are so used to him doing things no other player is capable of day by day they don't really value it anymore. But once that is taken from them, it'll begin to settle in. Of course that is also true for Cristiano but honestly, does anyone here really believe that CR7s career highlights and best plays/goals etc. are as impressive as the stuff of legend Messi has produced?

So I think you are fighting a lost battle. It's already been decided who's career will be revisioned more kindly in the history books and there's little Cristiano can do about that.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Yes and no because if you have a 3-0 lead and a 4-0 lead as an example you as "the best player in the world" should take the game by the scruff of the neck and end any possibility of an embarrassment like the ones that happened. Back to back the same result and its also the body language he begins to sulk and waddle around the pitch. That to me though is not even my biggest Jibe. After losing a penalty shootout in a final for your country where you missed the penalty that causes your team to lose you then quit from your national team and say "feck it I quit". I don't care what anyone says that is weak and shows a lot about his mental fortitude. Not everyone is born with that mindset I mean look at Brady who is not even the most talented QB ever but he is undoubtedly the best QB of all time and it all stems from his mental fortitude.

Messi is fecking brilliant and a joy to watch but to me he is the second best.
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Messi is undeniably the better and more talented player but Ronaldo is the better leader and likes to be the star and centre of attention. I think what you mentioned is also pretty telling of Messi's "weakness" and that's his mental strength. One thing I also do notice is that Ronaldo seems to get more enjoyment when he plays for Portugal, he relishes the challenge and pressure and step up whenever it matters, but Messi doesn't seem to enjoy playing for Argentina, he sulks and strolls around when the chips are down.

Maybe the Argentina fans can chip in, there must be some underlying issues going on with the Argentina national team for how such a generation of talented players who play so well for their club, turned to shit when they play for their country. Aguero is the best striker in the EPL and has consistently delivered for City but he also doesn't do as well for his national team.
 
Foxtrot said:
Messi is undeniably the better and more talented player but Ronaldo is the better leader and likes to be the star and centre of attention. I think what you mentioned is also pretty telling of Messi's "weakness" and that's his mental strength. One thing I also do notice is that Ronaldo seems to get more enjoyment when he plays for Portugal, he relishes the challenge and pressure and step up whenever it matters, but Messi doesn't seem to enjoy playing for Argentina, he sulks and strolls around when the chips are down.

Maybe the Argentina fans can chip in, there must be some underlying issues going on with the Argentina national team for how such a generation of talented players who play so well for their club, turned to shit when they play for their country. Aguero is the best striker in the EPL and has consistently delivered for City but he also doesn't do as well for his national team.
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I think it's true that Messi is not as much a natural leader as Zidane fx and maradonna when he played. But he's had the pressure of being expected to be the GOAT in every mattch and every season and score a about a goal a game. And he has pretty much delivered for over a decade. The same with Ronaldo. That's really requires insane mental strength. But for me he is more the team's magician than the captain. He is naturally a shy introverted natural genius.
 
SportingCP96 said:
Yes and no because if you have a 3-0 lead and a 4-0 lead as an example you as "the best player in the world" should take the game by the scruff of the neck and end any possibility of an embarrassment like the ones that happened.
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This isn't basketball, my man...it's not 5v5. A single player's impact on a football field is far more limited on the overall flow of the game than it is with a game that has less players on the field. This just sounds like a straw man's argument to try and change the overall narrative that Messi will be remembered as the best player of his generation and CR7 will be second in most people's minds. It's not even about the trophies, or the stats (which Messi will eclipse CR7 in by the end of their respective careers whether you want to talk goals, assists, FKs scored, etc), it's just about being able to see a talent greater than the other on a game-by-game basis. Messi simply impacts the game more than CR7 but neither can be held responsible for how their team chokes and allows silly goals in.
 
Hopefully the Ballon d'Or goes the same way. He was a level above anyone else last season.
 
harms said:
Hopefully the Ballon d'Or goes the same way. He was a level above anyone else last season.
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Its not based on a season its based on a calender year. Excellent up until the CL semi's, his team since has gone off the boil, lost the Copa del Rey, Messi had a pretty poor Copa (one goal - a penalty), he's been injured for the start of this season.

You can still make a case for him but I think VVD would be a reasonable winner given Liverpool's excellent form this year. He deserves it as much as Modric did IMO.
 
harms said:
Hopefully the Ballon d'Or goes the same way. He was a level above anyone else last season.
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I'm not sure anyone in Argentina or in Liverpool agrees with this statement. As usual he failed to deliver in CL in an important away game, as usual he failed to deliver for his national team.
 
Oly Francis said:
I'm not sure anyone in Argentina or in Liverpool agrees with this statement. As usual he failed to deliver in CL in an important away game, as usual he failed to deliver for his national team.
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He was Barcelona's best player by a mile, BTW who really failed to deliver was VVD in Barcelona, he was awfull in two of three goals.
 
Oly Francis said:
I'm not sure anyone in Argentina or in Liverpool agrees with this statement. As usual he failed to deliver in CL in an important away game, as usual he failed to deliver for his national team.
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Yeah, he really should've swapped positions with Pique and cleared that corner from Arnold. If I'm not mistaken he also still hasn't found a cure for cancer yet, the lazy little shit. I bet he won't prevent Trump's re-election either. Such a disappointment.
 
Zehner said:
Yeah, he really should've swapped positions with Pique and cleared that corner from Arnold. If I'm not mistaken he also still hasn't found a cure for cancer yet, the lazy little shit. I bet he won't prevent Trump's re-election either. Such a disappointment.
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Do not forget global warming.
 
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