Lionel Messi

The fact that they collapse whenever Messi has a day off speaks worse about Barca than about Messi.

They're literally a one player team. Whenever he's having a day off or being rested they turn to shite.

Good luck for them his day offs are rare.
 
Tbf he will be 32 next month, naturally his cardio won't be as good. Ronaldo doesn't run anywhere near as much as he used to either.
Please don't mention you-know-who in this thread. I always get blamed for it.

Back on Messi, he was rested during the weekend and there should be no reason why he showed so much indifference towards the end of the game.
 
That's what @padr81 thinks.

Personally, I think a lot of managers are rather clueless. I can see a lot of people doing a better job than Tuchel has this season.

I think that too.

The answer is simple, go ahead and prove you know better than those at the top level. Until then... I'll continue assuming we know nothing
 
Go watch a replay of the game, Messi's head clearly dropped at 3-0 and since then he literally didn't touch the ball.

As @2mufc0 pointed out, he was never going to run around all game, but since Pep left he's definitely running less and less.

In these instances, Ronaldo can make himself a presence in the area when he's not receiving the ball as long as someone can put in a cross, he'll likely get something of a chance to impact the game. Messi, by comparison, won't do it for obvious reasons, he doesn't have that aerial quality to be a factor in the box on a cross, so he drops deep to receive it, but the opposition tonight covered all available options in the box for Messi and the rest is history.
 
That's what @padr81 thinks.

Personally, I think a lot of managers are rather clueless. I can see a lot of people doing a better job than Tuchel has this season.

Again making stuff up, you are getting good at it after years of trying to defend Ronaldo. I didn't say you know nothing (though I'm slowly starting to believe that given you Tuchel comment), I said you know less than Pep Guardiola.
 
Tbf he will be 32 next month, naturally his cardio won't be as good. Ronaldo doesn't run anywhere near as much as he used to either.
He was rested over the weekend.
Again making a mountain of a mole hill to support your argument. He played exactly the same, walk around got the ball and tried to make things happen. I'd love to see his running stats season by season because to me he looks the exact same Messi albeit less explosive when dribbling.
That is very debatable.
 
The fact that they collapse whenever Messi has a day off speaks worse about Barca than about Messi.

They're literally a one player team. Whenever he's having a day off or being rested they turn to shite.

Good luck for them his day offs are rare.

I think they'd struggle to qualify for the CL without Messi.

He papers over a lot of their cracks.
 
Roberto had a shooting chance in decent position and he decided to play a stupid pass to Messi.
That was Alba and that was offside anyways. Ref let Liverpool play on after the flag came up because they dispossessed Messi.
 
Again making stuff up, you are getting good at it after years of trying to defend Ronaldo. I didn't say you know nothing (though I'm slowly starting to believe that given you Tuchel comment), I said you know less than Pep Guardiola.
You don't think you could have done better than Tuchel? That squad and winning only Ligue 1 whilst capitulating against the worst United side for decades and failing to win either of the domestic cups?

Also, it is true that St Pep has a poor CL record since Xaviesta.
 
That was Alba and that was offside anyways. Ref let Liverpool play on after the flag came up because they dispossessed Messi.

To be fair, it happened with Roberto too near the end. Ball broke to him at the edge of the box and instead of shooting he fecked the pass to Messi.

The Alba one is just weird. You're one on one with the keeper. Put the ball in the net and let VAR decide if you were offside.
 
He needs to move on now, embrace a new challenge and play in another league, preferably the Premier League, and preferably for us. :)
 
He was rested over the weekend.

That is very debatable.

It's not really, it was plain to anyone watching the game. At 3-0 down, he picked up the ball at one stage and broke right through the heart of Liverpool, where Matip pulled him down and got a yellow. I'd say thats trying to make something happen. He bollocked up the following freekick. Every threat from Barca came through him. He was also the only one who chased back at the very end, when Fabinho broke and then hit the deck to end the game.
 
I think they'd struggle to qualify for the CL without Messi.

He papers over a lot of their cracks.

Honestly I agree. Where's the creativity coming from without Messi? Or the actual goalscoring? It's actually a harrowing thought.
 
To be fair, it happened with Roberto too near the end. Ball broke to him at the edge of the box and instead of shooting he fecked the pass to Messi.

The Alba one is just weird. You're one on one with the keeper. Put the ball in the net and let VAR decide if you were offside.
Alba even had another Barca player to his right in front of goal to pass it too if he wasn't up for the shot.

It's a bit of a "problem" for them in that they can't play normal football because getting the ball to Messi is such a priority.
 
You don't think you could have done better than Tuchel? That squad and winning only Ligue 1 whilst capitulating against the worst United side for decades and failing to win either of the domestic cups?

Also, it is true that St Pep has a poor CL record since Xaviesta.

Nope I couldn't nor could you. Could a top manager or another decent manager absolutely. I'd also say Pep has underachieved in the CL, particularly at City, but yet again you're running away from the original point. Messi didn't change his game one iota between 0-0 and 4-0. He still played the way he always does so your original comment was wrong.
 
Alba even had another Barca player to his right in front of goal to pass it too if he wasn't up for the shot.

It's a bit of a "problem" for them in that they can't play normal football because getting the ball to Messi is such a priority.

Agreed. Do they not realise how predictable they are? Like the opposition won't catch onto it?

Whenever Alba has the ball in a wide position his first thought is to look for Messi who is invariably at the edge of the box running in. For once I'd just love to see one of their full backs play the ball across the face of goal from a wide area instead of trying to find Messi every time.
 
It's not really, it was plain to anyone watching the game. At 3-0 down, he picked up the ball at one stage and broke right through the heart of Liverpool, where Matip pulled him down and got a yellow. I'd say thats trying to make something happen. He bollocked up the following freekick. Every threat from Barca came through him. He was also the only one who chased back at the very end, when Fabinho broke and then hit the deck to end the game.
Oh well, I don't really want to talk about this game any more, never thought I'd feel like this seeing Barca lose 4-0.

Hope you lot go 5-0 up in the first half on Sunday.
 
Nope I couldn't nor could you. Could a top manager or another decent manager absolutely. I'd also say Pep has underachieved in the CL, particularly at City, but yet again you're running away from the original point. Messi didn't change his game one iota between 0-0 and 4-0. He still played the way he always does so your original comment was wrong.
The fact remains that Messi very rarely does anything to turn a tie or a game when he's up against it. He'd be brilliant when Barca are in control, but do rescue a tie? Very rarely happens.

Anyway, like I said, good luck on Sunday.
 
Oh well, I don't really want to talk about this game any more, never thought I'd feel like this seeing Barca lose 4-0.

Hope you lot go 5-0 up in the first half on Sunday.

So do I but it wouldn't surprise me to see Liverpool do the double.

Also don't get me wrong, I'm not one of these people who puts Messi miles above R9, Maradona or CR7 either. I just post when I see some say something I disagree with, like saying Messi doesn't try or Ronaldo doesn't give shit and is all about himself or whatever when its clearly not true.
 
I think they'd struggle to qualify for the CL without Messi.

He papers over a lot of their cracks.

I know his haters will call us crazy but that's the shocking truth. Leads the league in goals and assists. This team would be on Sevilla level without him. Playmaker and top goalscorer Ind one person, that's just stupid. Despite Maradona and Pele's myth. No player will ever be able to carry a team on their own. Liverpool.won because it was.a great team against Messi and ter Stegen.
 
That was Alba and that was offside anyways. Ref let Liverpool play on after the flag came up because they dispossessed Messi.

Eh I’m talking about when they were 4-0 down and yes I know that was offside.
 
I know his haters will call us crazy but that's the shocking truth. Leads the league in goals and assists. This team would be on Sevilla level without him. Playmaker and top goalscorer Ind one person, that's just stupid. Despite Maradona and Pele's myth. No player will ever be able to carry a team on their own. Liverpool.won because it was.a great team against Messi.

I think given the state of Real currently Barca would probably be in a battle with them for 2nd or 3rd. Atletico would win the league comfortably though.
 
I understand his teammates were garbage and all, but my word some apologists on here! Their best player? Yeah, bravo! Alright, Pogba, that is all you need to do now - be our best player, and all will be forgiven.
 
This time is another big disappointment for Messi. Been playing so well throughout the tournament, even progress to semi this time, but bottle again big time after leading 3-0 .... typical Messi
 
They have excellent players too but it's became so much his team and the dependability on him so strong that once he does go away it will take some getting used to. They'd need to invest heavily and quickly and hope they nail 100% of the signings but they'd also be competing with Real Madrid and Premier League money.

The thing I will enjoy is seeing all the fanboys go away and go back to rooting for a different team in a different country since a lot of them can't go back to rooting for Madrid.
 
This time is another big disappointment for Messi. Been playing so well throughout the tournament, even progress to semi this time, but bottle again big time after leading 3-0 .... typical Messi

Barcelonas poor defense and midfield is not his fault. He should have scored or got some assists today though with the chances they had in the first half.
Still Barcelona just falling apart in the second half is the teams fault.

He is clearly not as good away from home though. Although I think he played fairly good today apart from wasting one very big chance.
 
My point wasn't that Maradona featured in a team that lost, but rather than Maradona, like any other top player in history had crucial games at the elite level whereby he not only didn't score, but didn't play particularly well at a time when they required him to do so.

Historical revisionism looks back on great players and forgets that even they at times "slipped tamely off into the night". Those playing now are judged in ways that those in the past are not, retrospectively.
There are degrees to this - losing a game of football isn't the issue, especially when the body of work is strong enough to put him in contention for a spot among the esteemed 3, but to be above them, it's times like these, when players like them showed up more often than not, that count.

It is not good to be on the end of so many tonkings where you, as the supposed greatest player of all time, had less impact on the game the more your team needed you.

i think with how his head dropped, it's just so polaric to Maradona, especially, who thrived in adversity not wilted under it.

You can argue that if the passes he laid on (which were sublime) had been converted, that this would be a different conversation, but they weren't and thus another avenue would be sought be the aforementioned where it wasn't with Messi. This conversation isn't about normal players, it's about glitches in the matrix, who do glitch in the matrix things in times of need.

There's no denying Messi's quality, but it isn't unique, and certainly not enough to put him above the other two, so then, more must be sought, and it's games like this, especially in composition, that really do start to formulate a picture.

I'm not missing the point. Does losing to Ajax cement Ronnies legacy? Nope, not a bit. And its happened many times in his career. Does having two complete non-events in his only CL appearances against competent teams cement Maradona's legacy? Not a bit.

It's a common thing to post about any footballer when things go wrong for the team but its not a bit true. Messi has saved plenty of games and let many more slip away, the same as every other top footballer.
Winning and losing in football is par for the course. How one loses or wins defines character and cements legacies. Messi looking startled and at a loss when his team are under the cosh in these kind of games when the chips are down is starting to look formulaic and predictable. It's not what you expect from one who people claim is the 'greatest' of them all. The only time you'd see Maradona look so forlorn is... well, I actually don't know. Win or lose, Maradona didn't do it meekly. In terms of strength of character, there isn't a contest to be had.

I shouldn't worry about it. In much the same way 20 years down the line Messi and Ronaldo's ECL failures will be at most tiny blips on two utterly spectacular careers. Legends will always have the dirt swept aside by the passage of time.
Well that's not true. Great players in teams that get smashed have it indelibly printed in their C.V. whether as an objective point in discussions, or, simply to try and place them in these imaginary tier lists.

Messi has won far more than he has lost, (but these CL hammerings are actually racking up now) so of course this won't define him, but it won't be swept under the rug either.

One game doesn't define a person's legacy.

Messi was their best player and all of their dangerous attacks came through him. If Alba or Suarez take their chance, Messi is being praised for making the difference.

His walking about is a problem, but he still created enough chances for them to win.
It certainly determines an order - just ask Baggio, who would've been hailed as something else entirely, and above Romario, but for one game. Or Ballack, or Cruyff, or Puskas, or Zico... the list goes on. but for the one game they lost, their elevation to a higher status was forsaken. Cruyff, the world cup winner, is spoken of in the same breath as Pele and Maradona, not as one of the next few after them.

We're talking the greats here, not normal players. One game can indeed take them up a notch or notches.
 
They have excellent players too but it's became so much his team and the dependability on him so strong that once he does go away it will take some getting used to. They'd need to invest heavily and quickly and hope they nail 100% of the signings but they'd also be competing with Real Madrid and Premier League money.

The thing I will enjoy is seeing all the fanboys go away and go back to rooting for a different team in a different country since a lot of them can't go back to rooting for Madrid.

I think the biggest problem is having Busquets around. He seemed to be totally dominated in midfield against every decent side they play since he is too slow. He is a bit like Matic these days.

Raketic has also declined and they could need to uppgrade him. Most of the defenders Barca have is also much better in attack then they are at defending. I think the spanish league being so poor these days is a problem for them. Playing in the premier league helps Liverpool since they get to play harder games more regulary in my view.
 
I think the biggest problem is having Busquets around. He seemed to be totally dominated in midfield against every decent side they play since he is too slow. He is a bit like Matic these days.

Raketic has also declined and they could need to uppgrade him. Most of the defenders Barca have is also much better in attack then they are at defending. I think the spanish league being so poor these days is a problem for them. Playing in the premier league helps Liverpool since they get to play harder games more regulary in my view.
Messi probably has two more years at god level (though his stamina and work ethic will decrease) they've got to start plotting the big pieces now. The last few transfers haven't been that good and a couple dramatically overpriced like Dembele and Coutinho. It's going to be hard to build the personnel AND THEN switch up the style of play/lose the dependency on Messi. It will be a process where they need to start buying well and soon.
 
I think they'd struggle to qualify for the CL without Messi.

He papers over a lot of their cracks.

You watch them when they rest him in the league and they even struggle to beat crap team and end up having to put him in. Not a crazy thing to predict they will be a top 4 La Liga team at best when he retires with that rate. Their dependence on him has reached awful level.
 
He is really a one man show. At CL semi final level it's not enough. How did they end up with such slow attacking line and midfield?
 
You watch them when they rest him in the league and they even struggle to beat crap team and end up having to put him in. Not a crazy thing to predict they will be a top 4 La Liga team at best when he retires with that rate. Their dependence on him has reached awful level.

Thanks to Valverde. But as I've said in other threads, LaLiga is a whole different, easier animal than the PL. Man Utd. is sadly facing a Top6 era, while the Top4 in Spain is a joke (Getafe 4th because Sevilla and Valencia are so unreliable).
 
Thanks to Valverde. But as I've said in other threads, LaLiga is a whole different, easier animal than the PL. Man Utd. is sadly facing a Top6 era, while the Top4 in Spain is a joke (Getafe 4th because Sevilla and Valencia are so unreliable).

We are worse then Messi-less Barca anyway. We couldn't even force them out of their second gear so don't put us in the same mine as them mate.

Valverde is an awful manager and I have said that loads of times. He's everything anti Barca and plays tactics that I have never seen Barca play with before.
 
Barcelonas poor defense and midfield is not his fault. He should have scored or got some assists today though with the chances they had in the first half.
Still Barcelona just falling apart in the second half is the teams fault.

He is clearly not as good away from home though. Although I think he played fairly good today apart from wasting one very big chance.

Well Messi has been so good this season so he should be the last one to blame when losing this. But then I grew so tired of same excuses again and again. All he need is to score or assist a goal then Barca is through, instead he miss again.
 
Can someone explain me, why he was walking up front with Suarez in offside instead of getting the ball in midfield after 3:0 or 4:0?
 
Is he still good enough to save us?

If so a million a week should do it.

Messi is smart enough to know bringing United back to the top is worth more than another la liga.
 
Can someone explain me, why he was walking up front with Suarez in offside instead of getting the ball in midfield after 3:0 or 4:0?

He pretty much gave up after Liverpool scored the second. He looked shell shocked after the first but things settled down a bit, he did put in two lovely passes to Suarez and someone else (sorry cannot remember who!) but apart from that Liverpool dealt with him easily. Soon as the second went in the camera went to him again and he was having Vietnam flashbacks, same with some of the other Barca players and I knew it was over.

He is a wonderful footballer no doubt and if he gets marked out of a game/has an off day like day there HAS to be players around him that can make up for it but quite simply there aren't. In answer to your question, it's almost like he knew it was over so therefore didn't really bother. Not just him in fairness, the entire Barca team seemed to throw in the towel at 2 nil but with Messi it does seem to be something he does on occasion. Just no fight in him tonight whatsoever, don't know whether there was a disagreement with the coach about tactics at half time but none of them looked happy.
 
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He was their best player imo

Don’t understand where all the hate is coming from. I guess that’s what happens when you’re that good. People literally expect you to win games.