Lionel Messi

[RedDevilCanuck]

How much has HGH helped elevate Lionel Messi's performance level? A controversial one I know. Now we all know he took HGH and doctor supervision from the ages of 13-17. From I've read Barcelona have declined to comment on whether Messi still takes HGH for his condition. We also know that athletes sometimes use a theraputic use exemption to use banned substances to gain an athletic advantage. Messi does seem to have incredibly developed thighs and very dense bones/tendons and extra HGH could make him super human in this respect. I don't think it's a coincidence the best player of all time was treated with HGH as a youth.

Then there's the Spanish Court ordering the destruction of blood testing from Operation Puerto as a whole other side to Spanish sport doping. Doping doctors have been linked to top Spanish clubs and Bayern IIRC.

My personal opinion is Messi and Barce have benefited from performance enhancing substances. But I also think it would be naive to believe most professionals in a billion pound industry aren't trying to get an edge using similar tactics.

Good post. I've often thought this.

I've thought about it with Ronaldo too. Went from skinny lanky 18 year old to body builder.

Both players rarely get injured and play almost every game.

We dont have concrete evidence and even if they are on HGH chances are most star and even average players are on it.

 

[TysonFury]

The greatest player I have ever seen.

 

[LoveFootball]

So after "he can't head the ball", or "he can't score from outside of the box", "can't perform without Xavi and Iniesta", "he can't perform outside of the Barca comfort zone", .....the new stick to beat Messi with is "HGH give him advantage over other players"?

Is it that hard for some to admit that he's simply a gift from the gods of football?

 

[Moonred]

Argue ? Why do Messi fans always want to argue their opinions on everyone else .

You can't do it as it's just opinions no amount of pointless "facts" is ever going to change the opinion of any other sane person .

I think Ronaldo is better and nothing will change that . The only fact Im interested in Messi is why he got a pass for doing drugs

He is laughing at the stupidity of a poster who claimed Messi doesn’t score goals from outside the box. As it turns out he does and does it more than anyone else.
Your subjective opinion has no bearing on the truth aka ‘fact’. It doesn’t change who you prefer (that’s your call) but if you manufacture facts out of your arse which when refuted will be a cause for laughter.

 

[Hala Madrid]

Well, first of all,

So after "he can't head the ball", or "he can't score from outside of the box", "can't perform without Xavi and Iniesta", "he can't perform outside of the Barca comfort zone", .....the new stick to beat Messi with is "HGH give him advantage over other players"?

Is it that hard for some to admit that he's simply a gift from the gods of football?

Ronaldo is also a gift from the proverbial football God's, same as Maradona and Pele; nevertheless, that argument is very valid... don't let your admiration for a player cloud your sense of reasoning

 

[Cal?]

Europe's top five leagues in 2018-19:

Most goals - Messi
Most assists - Messi
Most dribbles - Messi
Most chances created - Messi
Most free-kicks scored - Messi
Most key passes per 90 mins - Messi
Most goals from outside the box - Messi

He missed three weeks through injury.

Source: @FootballFactly

Perhaps he could try not bottling the CL at the QF stage for a change.

 

[africanspur]

Perhaps he could try not bottling the CL at the QF stage for a change.

Wow he must be superhuman if he regularly bottles the CL QF and still has 4 CLs! Imagine if he wasn't such a bottler.

 

[Cal?]

Wow he must be superhuman if he regularly bottles the CL QF and still has 4 CLs! Imagine if he wasn't such a bottler.

1 he got without playing a single game from QF onwards
1 after the scandal of Stamford Bridge

But the key point is his continual failure to deliver in recent years.

 

[17Larsson]

1 he got without playing a single game from QF onwards
1 after the scandal of Stamford Bridge

But the key point is his continual failure to deliver in recent years.

Where he then scored in the final, and with a header? Both of which he seems to be rubbish at?

Come on, your anti Messi wumming used to be better than this

 

[Cal?]

Where he then scored in the final, and with a header? Both of which he seems to be rubbish at?

Come on, your anti Messi wumming used to be better than this

One header against United over a decade ago doesn't make him a good header of the ball.

I'm not anti-Messi at all, in fact I think he's the 2nd best player ever in the history of the game.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

1 he got without playing a single game from QF onwards
1 after the scandal of Stamford Bridge

But the key point is his continual failure to deliver in recent years.

He was the main reason Barcelona won the domestic double last season. He continues to perform more consistently than anyone over a 38 game league season.

Real Madrid win CL after CL yet very rarely win La Liga. Maybe if Ronaldo performs better in La Liga then Real would had won more in recent years.

For Ronaldo the key point is his continual failure to deliver in recent years.

 

[17Larsson]

One header against United over a decade ago doesn't make him a good header of the ball.

I'm not anti-Messi at all, in fact I think he's the 2nd best player ever in the history of the game.

You're constantly in this thread criticising him. It's predictable and boring at this stage

 

[Cal?]

He was the main reason Barcelona won the domestic double last season. He continues to perform more consistently than anyone over a 38 game league season.

Real Madrid win CL after CL yet very rarely win La Liga. Maybe if Ronaldo performs better in La Liga then Real would had won more in recent years.

For Ronaldo the key point is his continual failure to deliver in recent years.

Every game is not equal, winning CL knockout games against the likes of Juve and Bayern count for a lot more than trashing Eibar & co.

 

[Cal?]

You're constantly in this thread criticising him. It's predictable and boring at this stage

The fact I think he's the 2nd best player ever does not mean he's beyond criticism like his fanbase seem to think.

 

[17Larsson]

The fact I think he's the 2nd best player ever does not mean he's beyond criticism like his fanbase seem to think.

Keep fighting that injustice

 

[Mick321]

Why is everything "bottled" or "choked" nowadays?

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Why is everything "bottled" or "choked" nowadays?

They are pathetically overused phrases on the Caf. Someone doesn’t score a goal, or win a match or win the league - they’ve bottled it.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Every game is not equal, winning CL knockout games against the likes of Juve and Bayern count for a lot more than trashing Eibar & co.

Yet in the league Messi did it a lot more than Ronaldo did, more consistently as well.

Its just a lame excuse for you to use because you have nothing else to argue as to why Ronaldo is better.

A handful of games a season does not make a player better. Look at Modric last season. He performed better in the WC and CL yet he is not better than Messi or Ronaldo.

For your logic of Ronaldo being the best ever, you don’t use the same logic for players such as Pele who is the only player to win 3 World Cups. Ronaldo could only dream of that. You can’t use team success as a barometer to judge a player as being better than another.

In Messi and Ronaldo’s careers, Messi has better individual stats in almost every category.

 

[Cal?]

Yet in the league Messi did it a lot more than Ronaldo did, more consistently as well.

Its just a lame excuse for you to use because you have nothing else to argue as to why Ronaldo is better.

A handful of games a season does not make a player better. Look at Modric last season. He performed better in the WC and CL yet he is not better than Messi or Ronaldo.

For your logic of Ronaldo being the best ever, you don’t use the same logic for players such as Pele who is the only player to win 3 World Cups. Ronaldo could only dream of that. You can’t use team success as a barometer to judge a player as being better than another.

In Messi and Ronaldo’s careers, Messi has better individual stats in almost every category.

The World Cup has more to do with where a player was born. If Messi or Ronaldo were born in Spain, they’d likely have won multiple WC.

 

[IFC 1905]

The World Cup has more to do with where a player was born. If Messi or Ronaldo were born in Spain, they’d likely have won multiple WC.

Firt time I agree with CAL?

 

[adexkola]

Why is everything "bottled" or "choked" nowadays?

One day I'll make a thread called "Tired trope or actual fact" with the terms "bottled/choked" being the next topic of discussion after the term " pragmatic".

 

[mshnsh]

Ronaldo didn't just have 'injuries or niggles'. He had two career threatening injuries. The fact that he got back to the level he even did (one of the best strikers in the world) speaks to the absolute talent he had to begin with prior to his injuries.

Also, 1998 should really have cemented Ronaldo's legacy. He was 21 at the time. But y'know, weird circumstances around that.

With regards to youngest Balon d'Or winner ever - didn't Ronaldo win it at 20 (i.e. performances aged 19?). Doesn't seem likely.

To directly compare the 2 players at 20 yrs, just go on YouTube and watch their videos vs top 4 in Spain 2007/8 for messi and 1996/7 for Luis ronaldo.The top 4 in Spain 96/7 were real Madrid, Barcelona, betis and deportivo league corona while in 07/08 the top 4 were real Madrid, Villarreal, Barcelona, and atletico madrid.You will have your answer.

I have watched them live and also watched the videos to refresh my memory and am in no doubt that messi was easily more talented.Better dribbling, better vision as can be seen with the assist to bojan and henry but playing deeper than ronaldo by 30 yards.

 

[mshnsh]

if you look at clips of messi 10 yrs old he was already doing the same thing as now. If the worlds greatest footballer was jacked up on Growth Hormone im sure it would have been revealed by now

Messi played for a team in Argentina in the late 80's.They lost a single game in 5 years and messi was the undisputed star.

HGH was medical therapy for his deficiency and nothing more.People who say otherwise should know that GH does not give you otherworldly close control, vision, technique , the ability to find the corners on your finish.The attributes that define messi.

 

[mshnsh]

One header against United over a decade ago doesn't make him a good header of the ball.

I'm not anti-Messi at all, in fact I think he's the 2nd best player ever in the history of the game.

Yet in the league Messi did it a lot more than Ronaldo did, more consistently as well.

Its just a lame excuse for you to use because you have nothing else to argue as to why Ronaldo is better.

A handful of games a season does not make a player better. Look at Modric last season. He performed better in the WC and CL yet he is not better than Messi or Ronaldo.

For your logic of Ronaldo being the best ever, you don’t use the same logic for players such as Pele who is the only player to win 3 World Cups. Ronaldo could only dream of that. You can’t use team success as a barometer to judge a player as being better than another.

In Messi and Ronaldo’s careers, Messi has better individual stats in almost every category.

The thing with Cristiano and the UCL is that non of his performances are actually memorable even when he scores.

As an example, last season vs psg he wasn't good at all but scored 3 easy/lucky goals,was good vs juve but apart from his overhead kick the rest of the performance wasn't really "I was blessed to be there",was poor vs Bayer and liverpool and did not even score to conceal the poor performances as he usually does.

In 16/17 UCL, he was not good against any of the teams in the knock outs but poached some goals to conceal otherwise poor performances.

 

[Semiarty]

Could someone please embed this picture since I can't?
https://i.imgur.com/i1ZFRtg.png

Player Chances Created Per 90
Lionel Messi 3.85
Ousmane Dembélé 3.12
Santi Cazorla 2.95
Sofiane Boufal 2.88
Joan Jordán 2.86

Player Goals Scored Per 90
Lionel Messi 1.28
Luis Suárez 0.84
Ousmane Dembélé 0.78
Wissam Ben Yedder 0.75
Iago Aspas 0.70

Player Assists Per 90
Cristian Tello 0.87
Lionel Messi 0.77
Arturo Vidal 0.56
Brais Méndez 0.51
Santi Cazorla 0.45

Shamelessly stolen from reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/aaic4r/oc_la_ligas_top_contributors_on_offense_at_the/

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Good post. I've often thought this.

I've thought about it with Ronaldo too. Went from skinny lanky 18 year old to body builder.

Both players rarely get injured and play almost every game.

We dont have concrete evidence and even if they are on HGH chances are most star and even average players are on it.

Yes I don't think PEDs in sport is limited to the best. But a therapeutic use exemption almost gives carte blanch to give yourself a bit of a boost with that drug. Even if the footballers don't dope, it might be in the clubs interest to dope them medically through doctors who prescribe medicine's that enable them. The footballer might be clueless about it

So after "he can't head the ball", or "he can't score from outside of the box", "can't perform without Xavi and Iniesta", "he can't perform outside of the Barca comfort zone", .....the new stick to beat Messi with is "HGH give him advantage over other players"?

Is it that hard for some to admit that he's simply a gift from the gods of football?

I tend to believe in cause and effect over 'god given'. I always considered Messi the best but I don't think it's a coincidence that the best player in the world has been using HGH and quite probably still uses HGH. Not that that alone made him great but I'd have loved to have seen Riquelme and Cazorla on steroids.

Messi played for a team in Argentina in the late 80's.They lost a single game in 5 years and messi was the undisputed star.

HGH was medical therapy for his deficiency and nothing more.People who say otherwise should know that GH does not give you otherworldly close control, vision, technique , the ability to find the corners on your finish.The attributes that define messi.

Stronger more flexible tendons that HGH provides would improve control and technique

 

[Cal?]

The thing with Cristiano and the UCL is that non of his performances are actually memorable even when he scores.

As an example, last season vs psg he wasn't good at all but scored 3 easy/lucky goals,was good vs juve but apart from his overhead kick the rest of the performance wasn't really "I was blessed to be there",was poor vs Bayer and liverpool and did not even score to conceal the poor performances as he usually does.

In 16/17 UCL, he was not good against any of the teams in the knock outs but poached some goals to conceal otherwise poor performances.

Not the thread for it

 

[K2K]

Not the thread for it

This

 

[Ish]

Yeah, take it to the Messi v Ronaldo thread.

 

[Tommy]

From WhoScored's team of the year:

One player sticks out a bit, eh?

Can see the breakdown by league here.

 

[RedNed77]

From WhoScored's team of the year:

One player sticks out a bit, eh?

Can see the breakdown by league here.

Yes, Neymar as a central midfielder.

 

[Tommy]

Yes, Neymar as a central midfielder.

Garth Crooks level of daftness, but hey, I'd pay to watch that team

 

[Culero]

Not synthetic and likely overdosed HGH we don't. And who says he stopped taking HGH as a kid? From what I've read Barce declined to comment on whether Messi still has a therapeutic use exemption for HGH.

Bullocks, do you know of any clinical evidence or evidence relating to Messi? Synthetic hGH is made via genetic engineering (started in the 1980s) and the synthetic form of hGH has a sequence identical to the naturally occurring 22 kDa hormone. There is no biological difference in their effects.

Messi did not use HGH as a performance enhancer. Messi was using a prescribed treatment, monitored by physicians, in order to overcome a medical condition. The result is that he's followed the growth of a normal human being, fourteen years after the treatments were made possible. Messi is around 5'7" which is near average for an Argentinian male. At the time Messi was diagnosed, he was only 4'2", nothing magical about growing to normal height and weight. Heck using hGH as a therapeutic agent as long as you have an TUE (therapeutic use exemption) is allowed by FIFA. A therapeutic use exemption (or TUE) is granted for a player's use of a banned substance when that substance is considered medically necessary. If you check section 46 of FIFA's anti-doping code, there are provisions for TUEs. You would need a waiver for this however there is no evidence Barcelona used this exemption.

He's used hGH to grow into his normal growth curve like any other child, his ability on the ball isn't helped by this treatment. End off.

 

[Luke1995]

Another good performance against Getafe. It was a quiet game by him but still the best player on the pitch. January usually is a great month for him

 

[Tommy]

How many players do you need to beat with one ball?

 

[MuranoLover]

How many players do you need to beat with one ball?

Just wow

 

[mav_9me]

Just wow

When I saw that live I was like who is he passing to? Then I realized.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

How many players do you need to beat with one ball?

Simply the goat.

 

[Zehner]

@Peyroteo would say the run was better than the pass

 

[Adisa]

The goat. Not even up for discussion.