Lionel Messi

UnofficialDevil said:
He was invisible last night, apart from missing a sitter that is.
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Messi scored 4 goals and had 5 assists this Copa America. Even though he was not in shape in the final and underperformed there, he still performed well in the other games and also won the Copa America golden ball.
I would say he performed pretty well, but often people just look at one game.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Messi has been awful in all of them. Barely hit the target in any. Strolled around and looked like a lost puppy. He topped it off with one of the worst finals performances from a truly great player with the one we've just seen.
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and still better than Ronaldo’s nations league finals performance and his finals in 2015 and 2016 were still better than any NT finals Ronaldo had.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Messi has been awful in all of them. Barely hit the target in any. Strolled around and looked like a lost puppy. He topped it off with one of the worst finals performances from a truly great player with the one we've just seen.
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Not sure if serious
 
dinostar77 said:
Messi still hasnt won a World Cup. Pele, Maradonna, Brasilian Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Beckenbauer etc all have.
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So what, maradonna never won a Copa either, R9 never won a CL

World Cup is awesome obviously but Messi has the better resume than all those players
 
Grande Messi. Breathtaking tournament. Better than the euros.
 
11101 said:
I don't think this really changes that does it? He still needs to be the catalyst in a world cup win to put that to bed. That's the level he's up against when it comes to who is the greatest player ever.
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nah, anyone with a pair of eyes can see Messi is the goat. His longevity and consistency is far better than those players of the past he’s compared with. Pele had Brazil winning world cups even when he couldn’t play didn’t due to injury.
 
If you add up all the minutes Messi has played it comes to around 100 full games less than Ronaldo, yet, he has almost the same goal-tally (despite playing further in midfield) and comfortably more assists. This is not a nothing stat. His goal and assist per game ratio is higher.

That aside, picking out his final (when playing injured) and then ignoring that he had 9 direct goal contributions out of 12 (5g, 4a), and the other two he made the key pass that led to the assist, is probably not very smart. Argentina wouldn't be in the final if Messi hadn't turned on God mode. Barcelona wouldn't have been anywhere near a breath away from winning La Liga last season if Messi didn't start playing like a Ballon D'or contender from December onwards, and Argentina wouldn't have even made a World Cup final if Messi hadn't been so influential in the first place.

Last night Brazil were comfortably a better side. Talk about this and that, but his character stood out last night.
 
Hoof The Ball said:
If you add up all the minutes Messi has played it comes to around 100 full games less than Ronaldo, yet, he has almost the same goal-tally (despite playing further in midfield) and comfortably more assists. This is not a nothing stat. His goal and assist per game ratio is higher.

That aside, picking out his final (when playing injured) and then ignoring that he had 9 direct goal contributions out of 12 (5g, 4a), and the other two he made the key pass that led to the assist, is probably not very smart. Argentina wouldn't be in the final if Messi hadn't turned on God mode. Barcelona wouldn't have been anywhere near a breath away from winning La Liga last season if Messi didn't start playing like a Ballon D'or contender from December onwards, and Argentina wouldn't have even made a World Cup final if Messi hadn't been so influential in the first place.

Last night Brazil were comfortably a better side. Talk about this and that, but his character stood out last night.
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The problem is that people don't care about context anymore in these debates. Many just look at the end result and start talking nonsense.
 
Truly feel sorry for grown men that can’t watch a football match without seeing it as some part of a narrative and analysis about something completely unconnected. It’s such a juvenile and pathetic attitude.

Back on topic… really good to see Argentina pick up a trophy, and pleased for Messi as I can’t imagine how players feel when they have to retire with a question mark in their mind (Read : Keane and the CL).

I haven’t watched as much of the Copa as usual but there have been a lot of decent games by the looks of it.
 
Daysleeper said:
nah, anyone with a pair of eyes can see Messi is the goat. His longevity and consistency is far better than those players of the past he’s compared with. Pele had Brazil winning world cups even when he couldn’t play didn’t due to injury.
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I do agree. Longevity and consistency are what set him apart to the rest. CR7 is the only one that can compare with Messi. Both are great great players.
 
Would you say he has a better international career than Ronaldo now?
 
Daysleeper said:
honestly yes, no other time in history had Argentina made so many finals in a row
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Well to be fair, I think reaching the Copa final in general, is not as impressive as reaching a Euro final given the Euro quality in general as well as the frequency of the Copa. That said, Messi did reach a couple of those Copa finals.

Where Messi truly has a edge over CR7 is in the World Cup, where he has reached a final.

That is why I am laughing at the C7 50cents army claims at Messi merely tie with CR7 on the international stage after the Copa win. Tied on the number of trophies maybe, but tied in terms of international career? Wait till CR7 reaches a World Cup final before we talk about tying. He has a good chance next year with an incredible Portugal squad
 
dinostar77 said:
Messi still hasnt won a World Cup. Pele, Maradonna, Brasilian Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane, Beckenbauer etc all have.
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While Cruyff, Platini, Zico, Eusebio, George Best, Di Stefano, Puskas, and C Ronaldo etc have not. You can't just cherry pick which players to compare him to.
 
Cal? said:
but let's not pretend his contributed much in the last 2 games of the competition.

Anyway, it's not about Messi, we can take it to that thread if you really want to argue who did less in their country winning the final.
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assisted the only goal, and assisted another goal which was disallowed. scored the first penalty.
 
Mr Smith said:
While Cruyff, Platini, Zico, Eusebio, George Best, Di Stefano, Puskas, and C Ronaldo etc have not. You can't just cherry pick which players to compare him to.
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Yes i can when unequivocally the two highest rated players in football history i.e. Pele and Maradona won the World Cup. If Ronaldo and Messi want to be associated in that company then they should help their nations win the WC.

Winning the WC is still the highest achievement in football. Destroying the opposition in a tournament and scoring one of the greatest goals of all time ala Maradonna is still a bar Messi is yet to get anywhere near. Messi has had a better supporting cast over the years with Argentina then Maradonna had in 86 and 90.

Maybe its a generational thing, for people like me Maradonna is on a pedestal that no other player will reach. For the generation before that it was Pele. The generation before that Di Stefano, the generation before that Stanley Matthews. The generations long after Messi and Ronaldo have retired will have their greatest ever players, Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Matthews will all be footnotes in history. People will move the debate onto who is better between the superstars of every generation as the decades pass and football evolves.
 
dinostar77 said:
Yes i can when unequivocally the two highest rated players in football history i.e. Pele and Maradona won the World Cup. If Ronaldo and Messi want to be associated in that company then they should help their nations win the WC.

Winning the WC is still the highest achievement in football. Destroying the opposition in a tournament and scoring one of the greatest goals of all time ala Maradonna is still a bar Messi is yet to get anywhere near. Messi has had a better supporting cast over the years with Argentina then Maradonna had in 86 and 90.

Maybe its a generational thing, for people like me Maradonna is on a pedestal that no other player will reach. For the generation before that it was Pele. The generation before that Di Stefano, the generation before that Stanley Matthews. The generations long after Messi and Ronaldo have retired will have their greatest ever players, Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Matthews will all be footnotes in history. People will move the debate onto who is better between the superstars of every generation as the decades pass and football evolves.
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Disagree with the first part, and agree with the latter.

I complete disregard this notion that you must win a specific trophy we be considered the greatest footballer of all time. It's a team sport which people keep forgetting. If a player was comfortably a better footballer than anyone you've ever seen but unlike his closest rival didn't play for a top team (like France 98 or Spain 08-12) then he should be considered as the 2nd best.. just for that reason? I know you'll say that Maradona won it with a shit team or something, but it's the logic that I disagree with. And agree that it is generational, one always holds the greats of the era they fell most in love with, as the greatest. There aren't many who can look beyond that. Hence, for the people that the glory days were the ones where Italian football ruled, nobody will touch Maradona, as his WC triumph rules over the multitude of achievements and consistency of the current greats. For those who find this era (younger usually) untouchable, Messi and Ronaldo are automatically the two best ever, as if nobody before has even existed, and only G+A/stats/Balon Dors are relevant.
 
mu4c_20le said:
This just about puts him level with Ronaldo, possibly slightly ahead depending on your level of bias. Maradona won a WC
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He’s far ahead of Ronaldo and always has been. Maradona is a debate. Vastly different circumstances they were operating in.
 
dinostar77 said:
Yes i can when unequivocally the two highest rated players in football history i.e. Pele and Maradona won the World Cup. If Ronaldo and Messi want to be associated in that company then they should help their nations win the WC.

Winning the WC is still the highest achievement in football. Destroying the opposition in a tournament and scoring one of the greatest goals of all time ala Maradonna is still a bar Messi is yet to get anywhere near. Messi has had a better supporting cast over the years with Argentina then Maradonna had in 86 and 90.

Maybe its a generational thing, for people like me Maradonna is on a pedestal that no other player will reach. For the generation before that it was Pele. The generation before that Di Stefano, the generation before that Stanley Matthews. The generations long after Messi and Ronaldo have retired will have their greatest ever players, Messi, Ronaldo, Pele, Maradona, Di Stefano, Matthews will all be footnotes in history. People will move the debate onto who is better between the superstars of every generation as the decades pass and football evolves.
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I can see both sides of this argument. On the one hand you’ve got to look at the whole career. Messi has undoubtedly been more consistent and played at a high level for longer than Diego (although Maradona’s consistency is underrated: he was brilliant for more than 10 years).

On the other hand, the World Cup is the biggest stage. Everyone and their grandmother watches it. Even Americans watch it!

If the question is ‘what did you do on the biggest stage when the lights were brightest and the pressure was at its greatest and the entire world was watching you?’ then you have to favour Maradona (and Pele) as the supreme exponents of this sport.
 
I don't think you could say one is better than the other internationally. Ronaldo is arguably better stats-wise but has played in weaker teams while Messi has made more finals but played with better players.

In terms of trophies they are equal (not going to count Nations League).
 
Cristiano slightly better than Messi in terms of internationals. Overall Messi clearly the better player, almost like Ruud Vs Henry...Ruud worked tirelessly to keep up with Henry by there was always gulf in class. When the dust settles and the hysterical fans have disappeared, normal football fans will probably forget CR and there will always be doubts about Messi, this man has never done it outside his comfort zone - not the hallmark of a true great.
 
Spoony said:
Cristiano slightly better than Messi in terms of internationals. Overall Messi clearly the better player, almost like Ruud Vs Henry...Ruud worked tirelessly to keep up with Henry by there was always gulf in class. When the dust settles and the hysterical fans have disappeared, normal football fans will probably forget CR and there will always be doubts about Messi, this man has never done it outside his comfort zone - not the hallmark of a true great.
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Nobody talks about trophies. Before all these title comparisons began, I barely knew how many WCs, ECs, CLs or whatever the greats had won or how their goal records looked like. What the young will do is to look for footage of the players and when that will earn Messi his rightful place among a very select few.
 
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