Lionel Messi | PSG Watch

It's the fact that in big games it's Mbappé who makes the difference, not Messi

PSG were shite against Bayern, then Mbappé comes on and suddenly they're all over them
 
Acheron said:
On the world cup final I thought Mbappe was the best player on the pitch but Messi had an overall very good tournament. I don't rate him (Messi) as much as you do and I think is normal as he's an older player past his peak while Mbappe is still on the rise.
Click to expand...
Mbappe was anonymous till his penalty and even afterwards wasn't a constant threat though he had his moments.

As for you not rating Messi, it's because you support Madrid
 
giorno said:
It's the fact that in big games it's Mbappé who makes the difference, not Messi

PSG were shite against Bayern, then Mbappé comes on and suddenly they're all over them
Click to expand...
Galtier had planned to play defensively until Mbappe came on. It obviously did not work.
 
giorno said:
It's the fact that in big games it's Mbappé who makes the difference, not Messi

PSG were shite against Bayern, then Mbappé comes on and suddenly they're all over them
Click to expand...
Psg is all over the place tactically and finished second because Benfica were the better team. Messi needs someone like Mbappe who can make runs and find space. No one has more Assists in the CL than Messi, this season.
But Bayern is so much better than Psg. 3-0 coming up.
 
Andrade said:
It's definitely arguable that the height of club football is now superior in quality to the height of international football. If you watched the World Cup final then you know that this is far from a given: I can't recall a single CL final that was anywhere near that good. But it's arguable (only at the business end of the CL mind you: the early rounds typically have lots of club teams that are not very good).



However, the problem with superclubs in the Modern game is that they make football easier for the top players, not harder. One of the reasons Maradona was favourably compared to Pele despite being less successful at World Cups is because Pele was surrounded by World Class players whereas Maradona wasn't.



Messi has had great success at club level but bile-filled haters had always taken shots. 'It's because of Xavi and Iniesta' . 'Barcelona comfort zone'. 'System player.' 'Got to play with Neymar. Got to play with Suarez. Carried by Mbappe' etc etc.



Now at international level in this day an age, there is a a good chance that you will have worse teammates than at club level. Not the case in the past. When Messi was not successful with Argentina, the haters would point to this and say 'See? Can't do it without Barca/Xavi/Iniesta/the system etc.'



The funny thing is, now he has captained the the most successful Argentina team of all time, a team that you could argue has no world class players apart from him. Contrast that with the stacked teams that have been similarly successful in the recent past: Spain, France, Germany.



It's a monumental achievement that obliterates the notion that he was being carried by his teammates or the system or whatever.



And yet the haters don't concede and say 'yeah he's actually pretty good'. No they change tack. 'The World Cup doesn't mean that much. The CL Is clearly superior' 'record number of penaties' 'FIFA wants him to win and wants to give him all the awards'



Proving the time old adage that whatever the weather, 'haters gonna hate'.
Click to expand...

Probably the best post of the thread. Similarly the guy is having a go at the quality of the tournament by mentioning the quality of the sides Argentina had to beat.

Do you really think jm99 was saying the same thing when Madrid won a CL with a stacked team from front to back beating Roma, Wolfsburg, Man City (of 2015) and Atletico? Doubt it.

Was he saying the same thing when Portugal won the Euros beating the mighty Hungary, Iceland and Austria, Croatia, and of course the mighty Poland and Wales, with the only game against a stacked top quality side (France) being won without Ronaldo? Of course he wasn’t. So there’s a great irony in him accusing other people of hypocrisy.

Guys like him and BalanceUnAutreJoint just come off as the typical internet fanboys who are disappointed with the outcome and need to invent narratives with falsehoods to deal with it psychologically.
 
jm99 said:
Tbf Messi and Ronaldo are ridiculously durable, even by modern day standards. Apart from ronaldo's knee problems and Messi having a couple of injury ridden seasons they basically spent zero time injured bar the odd knock. Messi particularly due to his style of play deals with a lot of tackles and still didn't pick up many injuries,
Click to expand...
Messi has had more injuries than Cristiano.
 
FrankFoot said:
Yeah I think @jm99 it's missing the point.

Ronaldo and Messi in the 80s, would be a complete different thing comparing to their modern version, one wouldn't have the physique he had to dominate, because lack of modern medicine,diet, training, etc and the other guy probably wouldn't even be a footballer.

Now imagine a talent like Maradona with better nutrition, better medicine,legals PEDs, and sport psychologists...scary.
Click to expand...
I simply do not understand where you get this PED thing from. Do you have any evidence at all?

As for your later point, you don't need to imagine it because Messi fits the bill perfectly.
 
mshnsh said:
I simply do not understand where you get this PED thing from. Do you have any evidence at all?

As for your later point, you don't need to imagine it because Messi fits the bill perfectly.
Click to expand...

Professional footballers get all kinds of medication and substances for regeneration, supplement, performance enhancement, etc. The medical teams take care that it all remains within the doping rules. Much is allowed in small doses, some substances not at all.
 
Andrade said:
It's definitely arguable that the height of club football is now superior in quality to the height of international football. If you watched the World Cup final then you know that this is far from a given: I can't recall a single CL final that was anywhere near that good. But it's arguable (only at the business end of the CL mind you: the early rounds typically have lots of club teams that are not very good).



However, the problem with superclubs in the Modern game is that they make football easier for the top players, not harder. One of the reasons Maradona was favourably compared to Pele despite being less successful at World Cups is because Pele was surrounded by World Class players whereas Maradona wasn't.



Messi has had great success at club level but bile-filled haters had always taken shots. 'It's because of Xavi and Iniesta' . 'Barcelona comfort zone'. 'System player.' 'Got to play with Neymar. Got to play with Suarez. Carried by Mbappe' etc etc.



Now at international level in this day an age, there is a a good chance that you will have worse teammates than at club level. Not the case in the past. When Messi was not successful with Argentina, the haters would point to this and say 'See? Can't do it without Barca/Xavi/Iniesta/the system etc.'



The funny thing is, now he has captained the the most successful Argentina team of all time, a team that you could argue has no world class players apart from him. Contrast that with the stacked teams that have been similarly successful in the recent past: Spain, France, Germany.



It's a monumental achievement that obliterates the notion that he was being carried by his teammates or the system or whatever.



And yet the haters don't concede and say 'yeah he's actually pretty good'. No they change tack. 'The World Cup doesn't mean that much. The CL Is clearly superior' 'record number of penaties' 'FIFA wants him to win and wants to give him all the awards'



Proving the time old adage that whatever the weather, 'haters gonna hate'.
Click to expand...
Factos.
 
Zehner said:
Professional footballers get all kinds of medication and substances for regeneration, supplement, performance enhancement, etc. The medical teams take care that it all remains within the doping rules. Much is allowed in small doses, some substances not at all.
Click to expand...
Bit that does not equate to PED.
 
mshnsh said:
I simply do not understand where you get this PED thing from. Do you have any evidence at all?

As for your later point, you don't need to imagine it because Messi fits the bill perfectly.
Click to expand...

Tbh I would be quite surprised if any top athlete in any sport was 100% clean. Given the huge amounts of money in just about every sport and the fine margins between making it at the top level and not, people will try anything for an edge.

I'm sure I remember a survey of Olympic athletes and about 50% of them said they'd take something that would kill them in 5 or 10 years if it guaranteed a gold medal. PED use will be absolutely rife in top level sports, but for football it's probably limited to recovery and endurance more than anything else
 
Zehner said:
Professional footballers get all kinds of medication and substances for regeneration, supplement, performance enhancement, etc. The medical teams take care that it all remains within the doping rules. Much is allowed in small doses, some substances not at all.
Click to expand...

The tests can also only test for substances they know about, I'd imagine there's an absolutely massive market in substances that get around the tests and the like. Less so in football than sports like mma or boxing but certainly they'll still have some usage
 
Joel Miller said:
Probably the best post of the thread. Similarly the guy is having a go at the quality of the tournament by mentioning the quality of the sides Argentina had to beat.

Do you really think jm99 was saying the same thing when Madrid won a CL with a stacked team from front to back beating Roma, Wolfsburg, Man City (of 2015) and Atletico? Doubt it.

Was he saying the same thing when Portugal won the Euros beating the mighty Hungary, Iceland and Austria, Croatia, and of course the mighty Poland and Wales, with the only game against a stacked top quality side (France) being won without Ronaldo? Of course he wasn’t. So there’s a great irony in him accusing other people of hypocrisy.

Guys like him and BalanceUnAutreJoint just come off as the typical internet fanboys who are disappointed with the outcome and need to invent narratives with falsehoods to deal with it psychologically.
Click to expand...
Thanks man. I definitely agree that these guys would have been singing a different tune re Ronaldo and the 2016 Euros.
 
Andrade said:
Thanks man. I definitely agree that these guys would have been singing a different tune re Ronaldo and the 2016 Euros.
Click to expand...

They already do mostly and Ronaldo wasn't even the best player at the Euros.

They try to downplay Messi's team success while also ignoring his own dominant performances. Best player at the Copa in 2021 and best player at the WC in 2022.

I mean it's just silly at this point.

Also, we all know what they would say if Messi didn't even score in the WC final. The same old boring narratives how Di Maria somehow 'carries' him for Argentina. Pure drivel from them.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
They already do mostly and Ronaldo wasn't even the best player at the Euros.

They try to downplay Messi's team success while also ignoring his own dominant performances. Best player at the Copa in 2021 and best player at the WC in 2022.

I mean it's just silly at this point.

Also, we all know what they would say if Messi didn't even score in the WC final. The same old boring narratives how Di Maria somehow 'carries' him for Argentina. Pure drivel from them.
Click to expand...
Indeed. Furthermore, imagine if Messi got injured in the first 15 minutes of the final and Argentina went on to win without him behind a Di Maria goal.....
 
mshnsh said:
Bit that does not equate to PED.
Click to expand...

There is way too much money in modern Football to be 100% clean, you might also believe that nobody in the NFL/Rugby Union/Bodybuilding is taking roids.

Also the difference between PEDs and what is considered legal is very thin, and depends on the effectiveness/dose of the substance itself, which ends up making everything fall under the umbrella of "technicality", and clubs take advantage of this.

Again only a naive person would believe that one of the most corrupt sports in history it's 100% clean when it comes to drugs.
 
FrankFoot said:
There is way too much money in modern Football to be 100% clean, you might also believe that nobody in the NFL/Rugby Union/Bodybuilding is taking roids.

Also the difference between PEDs and what is considered legal is very thin, and depends on the effectiveness/dose of the substance itself, which ends up making everything fall under the umbrella of "technicality", and clubs take advantage of this.

Again only a naive person would believe that one of the most corrupt sports in history it's 100% clean when it comes to drugs.
Click to expand...

Tbf my only reason for thinking that PEDs will be slightly less used in football than other sports is that one of the things they do best is increase strength, obviously there are things for improving endurance and recovery and those will get some use, but strength not helping that much in football means PEDs have less benefit than in other sports
 
BalanceUnAutreJoint said:
You just know he's going to ghost the Bayern game next week, get booed by PSG fans every matchday until May and still collect his ballon d'or by a landside come September
Click to expand...

and It would be fully deserved. He’s having a great season in France and everyone and their mother knows the World Cup was always going to decide ballon d’or. Messi should be a heavy favorite
 
jm99 said:
I'm not even trying to make it about Messi vs Ronaldo. It's about the hypocrisy of fans. I'm not sure I remember so many of the Messi fans arguing the WC was the best measure of a player before this world cup, most of them had Messi as the GOAT and said subpar WC performances were irrelevant when you've played like he has at club level (and I agree with that, his performances at club leve are good enough to warrant that title, or be in the discussion), it's amazing how many of them that had Messi as the goat without a good WC performance, now believe that WC performance is the single best indicator of a players ability.

I guess we should hold onto Harry maguire, who cares if he's been shit at club level, he played well against some no marks in the world cup, the true highest level, definitely worth 90m
Click to expand...
You absolutely are.
 
Andrade said:
It's definitely arguable that the height of club football is now superior in quality to the height of international football. If you watched the World Cup final then you know that this is far from a given: I can't recall a single CL final that was anywhere near that good. But it's arguable (only at the business end of the CL mind you: the early rounds typically have lots of club teams that are not very good).



However, the problem with superclubs in the Modern game is that they make football easier for the top players, not harder. One of the reasons Maradona was favourably compared to Pele despite being less successful at World Cups is because Pele was surrounded by World Class players whereas Maradona wasn't.



Messi has had great success at club level but bile-filled haters had always taken shots. 'It's because of Xavi and Iniesta' . 'Barcelona comfort zone'. 'System player.' 'Got to play with Neymar. Got to play with Suarez. Carried by Mbappe' etc etc.



Now at international level in this day an age, there is a a good chance that you will have worse teammates than at club level. Not the case in the past. When Messi was not successful with Argentina, the haters would point to this and say 'See? Can't do it without Barca/Xavi/Iniesta/the system etc.'



The funny thing is, now he has captained the the most successful Argentina team of all time, a team that you could argue has no world class players apart from him. Contrast that with the stacked teams that have been similarly successful in the recent past: Spain, France, Germany.



It's a monumental achievement that obliterates the notion that he was being carried by his teammates or the system or whatever.



And yet the haters don't concede and say 'yeah he's actually pretty good'. No they change tack. 'The World Cup doesn't mean that much. The CL Is clearly superior' 'record number of penaties' 'FIFA wants him to win and wants to give him all the awards'



Proving the time old adage that whatever the weather, 'haters gonna hate'.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
jm99 said:
The tests can also only test for substances they know about, I'd imagine there's an absolutely massive market in substances that get around the tests and the like. Less so in football than sports like mma or boxing but certainly they'll still have some usage
Click to expand...


Higher likelihood that players In the earlier years of the sport used PEDs than now. Mainly because the surveillance wasn't as stringent and progressively more drugs have been banned over time.
 
BalanceUnAutreJoint said:
Might have something to do with his shameful CL exit vs Roma too no ??? While Ronaldo demolished PSG and Juventus ...
Click to expand...







Ronaldo hardly demolished PSG. Infact he was quite poor despite the goals he scored. Of all the players currently playing, no one produces as many "poor despite the goals" performances . The obvious reason being that his play outside scoring is mediocre.
 
jm99 said:
Tbh I would be quite surprised if any top athlete in any sport was 100% clean. Given the huge amounts of money in just about every sport and the fine margins between making it at the top level and not, people will try anything for an edge.

I'm sure I remember a survey of Olympic athletes and about 50% of them said they'd take something that would kill them in 5 or 10 years if it guaranteed a gold medal. PED use will be absolutely rife in top level sports, but for football it's probably limited to recovery and endurance more than anything else
Click to expand...

I agree, there's no way Cristiano managed to keep up with Messi without some extra push.

Was always wandering if he was taking something to enhance his performances. Glad to see I'm not the only one we're on the same page. ;)
 
Black Adder said:
I agree, there's no way Cristiano managed to keep up with Messi without some extra push.

Was always wandering if he was taking something to enhance his performances. Glad to see I'm not the only one we're on the same page. ;)
Click to expand...

I'm sure Messi under pep the notoriously anti drug coach never had any help from fuentes :smirk:

Nah but I'd imagine almost every top club will skirt the regulations when it comes to things to give players an edge
 
GinobiliTheGOAT said:
and It would be fully deserved. He’s having a great season in France and everyone and their mother knows the World Cup was always going to decide ballon d’or. Messi should be a heavy favorite
Click to expand...
Which is why a World Cup standout player won the ballon d'or in 2010 and 2014 right ?

mshnsh said:
Ronaldo hardly demolished PSG. Infact he was quite poor despite the goals he scored. Of all the players currently playing, no one produces as many "poor despite the goals" performances . The obvious reason being that his play outside scoring is mediocre.
Click to expand...
Of all the players who ever played the game, no one produces as many goals in big CL games either.
 
mshnsh said:
Higher likelihood that players In the earlier years of the sport used PEDs than now. Mainly because the surveillance wasn't as stringent and progressively more drugs have been banned over time.
Click to expand...

More surveillance doesn't mean shit.
There is way too much money on football now for teams to not try to drugs that are barely legal.

The difference between legal and illegal substances sometimes it's very technical, sometimes even depending on the dose for example.

One of the most corrupt sports in history, very naive to think that players aren't taking drugs that enhance endurance, resistance and regeneration, if some of these aren't considered officially PEDs it's a mere technicality.
 
jm99 said:
I'm sure Messi under pep the notoriously anti drug coach never had any help from fuentes :smirk:

Nah but I'd imagine almost every top club will skirt the regulations when it comes to things to give players an edge
Click to expand...

All that extra HGH :drool:
 
It’s mind boggling to me that there are people who still attempt to make a Messi Vs Ronaldo debate happen
 
FrankFoot said:
There is way too much money in modern Football to be 100% clean, you might also believe that nobody in the NFL/Rugby Union/Bodybuilding is taking roids.

Also the difference between PEDs and what is considered legal is very thin, and depends on the effectiveness/dose of the substance itself, which ends up making everything fall under the umbrella of "technicality", and clubs take advantage of this.

Again only a naive person would believe that one of the most corrupt sports in history it's 100% clean when it comes to drugs.
Click to expand...
I personally know 3 professional rugby Union players (premier league in UK) who tell me they're forewarned by 4 weeks ahead of doping tests which are more than enough time to get anything out of your system, non performance enhancing or otherwise.

Anyone who thinks the game would red flag it if Messi or Ronaldo tested positive, or that they and other elite players, all of them, are not on stuff, are lying to themselves imo.

Surprisingly they're only urine rather than hair tested. If professional sports truly wanted to catch dope cheats rather than token sacrifices it'd all be hair tests.
 
BalanceUnAutreJoint said:
Which is why a World Cup standout player won the ballon d'or in 2010 and 2014 right ?


Of all the players who ever played the game, no one produces as many goals in big CL games either.
Click to expand...

not since 2018, once he left the midfield in the world he was getting knocked out to the likes of Lyon and porto

and Messi’s WC was far better than anyones In 2014 or 2010 and with a worse team than either Of those teams WC winning and finalist teams.
 
BalanceUnAutreJoint said:
I mean if Ronaldo had Messi's PR he's surely getting that ballon d'or 2018 pretty easily let's be honest here
Click to expand...

Ronaldo had massive PR in 2013 too to the point they extended the voting, just come off it. The debate is long dead and buried and Ronaldo is very disappointing in WC’s
 
Messi's world cup win ended the Ronaldo vs Messi debate. Although Messi may not have been the best player at the world cup, it really doesn't matter. Only those who favor Ronaldo's football over others will consider him the GOAT, and there are millions of people who do. It is a beautiful sport and players like Ronaldo, Messi, Maradona, and Pele make it even more beautiful.
 
My point still stands, the Messi vs Ronaldo fanbois are up there with Marvel vs DC as some of the worst people on the internet.
 
FrankFoot said:
More surveillance doesn't mean shit.

There is way too much money on football now for teams to not try to drugs that are barely legal.



The difference between legal and illegal substances sometimes it's very technical, sometimes even depending on the dose for example.



One of the most corrupt sports in history, very naive to think that players aren't taking drugs that enhance endurance, resistance and regeneration, if some of these aren't considered officially PEDs it's a mere technicality.
Click to expand...

Again, where is the evidence?
 
BalanceUnAutreJoint said:
Which is why a World Cup standout player won the ballon d'or in 2010 and 2014 right







Of all the players who ever played the game, no one produces as many goals in big CL gams
Click to expand...







Don't worry, Ronaldo definitely will win the Camel d'or award for scoring a gazillion goals in the desert. His failure at United was due to Ten Hag and his failure at the World cup was due to FIFA.
 
mshnsh said:
Again, where is the evidence?
Click to expand...

Its just so unlikely that there isnt doping in the worlds biggest sport when its rife in others. Fuentes said Spain would lose their wc title if he told the truth. And then you had the madrid court ordering all the players blood bags be to be destroyed.
 
Gehrman said:
Its just so unlikely that there isnt doping in the worlds biggest sport when its rife in others. Fuentes said Spain would lose their wc title if he told the truth. And then you had the madrid court ordering all the players blood bags be to be destroyed.
Click to expand...

Plus Football is one of the most corrupt sports out there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.