Off course player preference is very subjective but I do find it hard to understand why people go for the Mbappe/Ronaldo route when their game is based on power and pace when you could sit back and watch the magic of true artists at work. Machines vs magicians is a no contest for me. Mbappe is obviously a great player but he's never going to reach the heights Messi has/did because he's just not that type of player. He may have that x factor but he's missing the y, z that players like Messi, Maradona, Pele, Best, Zidane and R9 had that made them so special.
But that’s not related to me assessing said run and assist. I want to see Messi/Argentina in the mud - my post history is consistent on that regard. I’m a fan of Mbappe - to me he could be the legend killer - and I want to watch him holding Messi’s carcass on the biggest stage. Break his spine like Bane did Batman and toss him to the bushes while majority of redcafe panics and doesn’t know what to do. I dream of it. I need it in my veins.
None of that matters in regards to what I’m said about that specific run though. Gvardiol was hilariously bad there. I just don’t think much of it.
For the record, I think Messi might indeed be the best of all time and I’ve said this before.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
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What are you even saying here and why are you saying it? (legitimate asking to make sure I’m not misunderstanding your post)Mbappe is special and a magician in his own right - as was Ronaldo - and contrary to what people on this board will have you believe - there's a lot more to their game than "pace and power". Weird that on an enthusiast football forum we're still having these diminutive, borderline dismissive description of players.
It's OK if you prefer Messi's attributes over theirs. I don't think he's more of a "magician or artist" than them because of it. I just think Messi is better.
I also never said Mbappe will reach whatever heights you think Messi has reached. I do think that Mbappe's own story is incredible. He's 23 with a chance of winning a second world cup as a core player for his national team. Messi hasn't reached THOSE heights.
Mbappe is special and a magician in his own right - as was Ronaldo - and contrary to what people on this board will have you believe - there's a lot more to their game than "pace and power". Weird that on an enthusiast football forum we're still having these diminutive, borderline dismissive description of players.
It's OK if you prefer Messi's attributes over theirs. I don't think he's more of a "magician or artist" than them because of it. I just think Messi is better.
I also never said Mbappe will reach whatever heights you think Messi has reached. I do think that Mbappe's own story is incredible. He's 23 with a chance of winning a second world cup as a core player for his national team. Messi hasn't reached THOSE heights.
What’s your point?
Listening to Piers Morgan trying to make the case for Ronaldo as GOAT, bringing nonsensical arguments you'd expect from Ronaldo PR teams and those who suck him off in the media. Dude literally said Messi has had to play with world class players surrounding him at Barcelona his whole career while Ronaldo had to do it with nothing around. What the hell is wrong with idiots like these? Ronaldo has literally played with multiple Ballon D'or winners surrounding him for feck sakes.
The nerve to pretend that Ronaldo didn't play in a stacked Real Madrid team surrounded by elites of the elites at their craft is incredibly astounding
Imagine you're Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Casemiro, etc, listening to these PR7 fanboys in the media dismissing you to hype their boy.
Those are the same argument the CR7 cultists sprout here. But in actual fact, CR7 played with 3 ballon dor winners (Kaka, Modric and Benz) while at Madrid. He also had the better managers, including 3 all timers (SAF, Anchelotti and arguably Mou) and another potential all timer in Zidane.
in comparison, Messi only truly had an all timer manager in Pep. CR7 cultists here once rebuked me that valverde > prime mou, says a lot about them
beautiful, im crying
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That question would be best posed to the post I replied to. Something about Machines vs Magicians, pace and power and Mbappe reaching Messi heights. Topics I hadn't touched upon. Here:
Oh I get you Mbappe has a lot of ‘Magic’ himself.
I’ve only seen him play live once and I’m bloody glad I have. I can’t believe though that it was a game at Tannadice.
only saw him once too, he scored a hat-trick in the first 20 minutes and then Barca just passed it around for the remaining 70
You seem to forget that he's 35.
You’ve never seen Messi do better than that? Top speed wasn’t particularly impressive, he didn’t even do his usual slalom, he just changed pace a couple times and body feint/checked him once. I’m not saying it would be easy to stop - I’m saying most defenders would have fouled him before it got to what it go to, hence why it was comical to me.
Whatever bias you might think I hold, I don’t think that’s among the most impressive things I’ve seen Messi do, but alas
He's the best player I've ever seen in my lifetime. And its not even close. I remember 2011 and the feeling of impossibility of United doing anything with him in the Champions League final. He's a pleasure to watch.
Me: I don't think that was that crazy. I've seen him do better
Redcafe:
Justified
I think it's pretty obvious what I'm saying. You seem to be suggesting by your legend killer comment that Mbappe could go on to be the greatest player ever and I'm saying personally for me not in a million years. I've been bored to death with the Messi v Ronaldo comparisons for years now just as I am when people are comparing Mbappe with Messi. Technically neither are in the same ball park as Messi and what keeps the conversation going is "stats" and that Mbappe is now going for his second WC where you seem to forget that Mbappe is playing in a stacked team and he isn't the sole reason they're the current world champions.
Mbappe is special and a magician in his own right - as was Ronaldo - and contrary to what people on this board will have you believe - there's a lot more to their game than "pace and power". Weird that on an enthusiast football forum we're still having these diminutive, borderline dismissive description of players.
It's OK if you prefer Messi's attributes over theirs. I don't think he's more of a "magician or artist" than them because of it. I just think Messi is better.
I also never said Mbappe will reach whatever heights you think Messi has reached. I do think that Mbappe's own story is incredible. He's 23 with a chance of winning a second world cup as a core player for his national team. Messi hasn't reached THOSE heights.
Players like Mbappe and Ronaldo as great as they are are just that, great players but are still a tier below the true greats as I've already mentioned and to knock Messi to bump up Mbappe is pretty crass in my opinion. Why so anti Messi if I may ask?
This started even before MSN. There was a la liga game in 2012 where Messi scored a hattrick and then in the 90th minute, he dribbled the entire defence and they brought him down. He had the chance to score a 4th and make it 4-1 to barcelona but he gave the penalty to Ibrahimovic. Messi has always given away penalties to teammates even if he has a chance to score a hattrick.
I'm certain if messi was obsessed with records, he would have destroyed any hope Ronaldo had to be compared to him Stat-wise.
For that post, I was specifically talking about the best player of the world cup award.
Should he win the world cup, will be back to back international titles too. I believe thats not something pele or maradona did?
I just watched Argentina 1986 WC matches against England, Belgium, Germany. Messi is not playing at Maradona's level regardless of what happens. Maradona was running that team, all over the place, instrumental everywhere. He even defends. Messi is picking spots of brilliance here and there.
Furthermore, stop obsessing with stats. You can't just say 5 goals without qualifying that 3 are pks. All pks were valid, except the one against Poland which was missed, but they are still pks and most of the credit goes to the players involved in winning them.
That's not to say Maradona was better than Messi. Obviously Messi is not in his prime but Maradona in 1986 WC was far superior to Messi in 2022 WC.
As for the interminable goat argument..who the feck knows?
Furthermore, stop obsessing with stats. You can't just say 5 goals without qualifying that 3 are pks. All pks were valid, except the one against Poland which was missed, but they are still pks and most of the credit goes to the players involved in winning them.
That's not to say Maradona was better than Messi. Obviously Messi is not in his prime but Maradona in 1986 WC was far superior to Messi in 2022 WC.
As for the interminable goat argument..who the feck knows?
Messi is arguably the best player ever, but I want to talk about something a bit negative.
Now that Lionel Messi has finally put on some truly legendary performances at the World Cup at the age of 35, can we admit that some of his fans have had to engage in mental gymnastics to defend his past performances at the tournament? It's hard to deny that his previous World Cup appearances were not up to the standard we would expect from a player of his caliber, and many people have made excuses for him. But now that he's finally shown us what he's capable of on the world's biggest stage, perhaps it's time to acknowledge that his past performances were not up to par and that we may have been too quick to make excuses for him.
In particular, trying to sell his performance in 2014 as some kind of "greatest of all time" achievement was especially bothersome. And yes, I've even seen someone compare his performance to Maradona's in 1986, which is just ridiculous.
Now that Lionel Messi has finally put on some truly legendary performances at the World Cup at the age of 35, can we admit that some of his fans have had to engage in mental gymnastics to defend his past performances at the tournament? It's hard to deny that his previous World Cup appearances were not up to the standard we would expect from a player of his caliber, and many people have made excuses for him. But now that he's finally shown us what he's capable of on the world's biggest stage, perhaps it's time to acknowledge that his past performances were not up to par and that we may have been too quick to make excuses for him.
In particular, trying to sell his performance in 2014 as some kind of "greatest of all time" achievement was especially bothersome. And yes, I've even seen someone compare his performance to Maradona's in 1986, which is just ridiculous.
First time I saw him live was on the same pre-season tour, but at Murrayfield against Hibs in 2008. He played RW and scored a hat-trick in the first half and was subbed to save further embarrasment.I’ve only seen him play live once and I’m bloody glad I have. I can’t believe though that it was a game at Tannadice.
Also think Mbappe is nowhere near Messi or even Neymar/young Cristiano in terms of ability. What made Mbappe stand out at such a young age is that he was very mature in terms of both physique as well as football brain and composure. But technique rarely improves drastically beyond the age of 20 or so and Mbappe's isn't on the same level. His pace is a weapon but not the game changer many think it is. People love speed as evidenced by Tsu's comments but it is bordering obsession these days and very overrated - probably because it's a quality everybody can recognize, even without paying attention to the details. Messi's assist was outrageous partly because of the fact that he didn't need to outpace Gvardiol, not besides it. There's no way Mbappe could've overrun Gvardiol in the same situation with that little space inbehind and he wouldn't be able to reproduce the technique and anticipation required to beat him there.
It's a bit sad but right now we seem to be entering a phase of football in which there's no "all time great" player currently active. I'm rooting for a prodigy to come through. Maybe Endrick turns out to be one.
I don't think 2014 was considerably worse than this tournament. It's just that he scored in the knockout phases (penalties, mind) and people have lower expectations now because he's older. Team success clouds the judgment..
I wasn't. I meant legend killer as in burying Messi and his hopes and dreams of a world cup this tournament - in the final.
Good thing I didn't compare Mbappe to/with Messi nor did I say they are in the same ball park technically. Also, Messi hasn't exactly played with bums throughout his career. He has had good to world class supporting casts, and I never thought of him as "the sole reason" for any of his achievements - hardly a stick to hit Mbappe with, especially when, again, I wasn't comparing Mbappe to Messi.
You're entitled to your preferences and tiers. Just a bit odd to quote me with them to make distinctions between "great players" and "true greats" when 1. it is not a discussion I was having nor am I interested in having (I don't think Messis come around often, similarly, I don't think Ronaldos and Mbappes do either - they're all just great to me). 2. I said Messi might indeed be the best ever.
I don't know how saying Messi is the best ever or that "I don't think of him as more of an artist or magician than others - just better" - is knocking Messi to bump up Mbappe? How did you even reach that conclusion?
I do think diminishing Ronaldo and Mbappe to "pace and power" and "machines" is quite crass. Why so pro-Messi?I can think of Messi as the best and still be quite appreciative of other players and want to see them winning
Agreed , most who are shocked by the performances are the people who thought he was finished (Usually ignoring his Copa performances and saying things like "UBEReats league!")
Mbappe is close to young Cristiano talent wise don’t know how you can say he isn’t. Pace is never overrated it’s a bloody Sport, Pele was fast, R9 was rapid, Maradona Best Messi Ronaldo Ronaldinho Neymar all had good pace too.
what comments have I made here regarding ability, technique and/or pace directly comparing Messi to Mbappe and/or saying they're in the same ball park? Thread is reaching bizarro land.I said I've seen Messi do better than what he did against Gvardiol before, and that I thought Gvardiol was kinda comical and should have fouled him before it got to what it got to.
Then I said I hope Mbappe kills Messi's dreams of winning a world cup in the final. How we got to whatever it is that you guys are talking about, I do not know.
I said I've seen Messi do better than what he did against Gvardiol before, and that I thought Gvardiol was kinda comical and should have fouled him before it got to what it got to.
Then I said I hope Mbappe kills Messi's dreams of winning a world cup in the final. How we got to whatever it is that you guys are talking about, I do not know.
I said you overrated pace:
You’ve never seen Messi do better than that? Top speed wasn’t particularly impressive
As if "speed" was a means in itself, not to an end.
Don't think so. Cristiano is technically superior to Mbappe. I'd be surprised if Mbappe ever reaches the level Cristiano had between 2008 and 2013.
I think speed is one of the things to look at when examining a run, no? How did I overrate it? I wasn't specifically fixated on it and mentioned other things. I even said I don't think it would be easy to stop (the implication being his close control since speed wasn't particularly impressive), just that the defender should have fouled him - he had ample opportunity to do it.
I've switched allegiance
Messi is the best player ever
Messi is the best player ever
Nah, not really.
I was actually talking about the World Cup Golden Ball which he was referring to.
Otamendi has been quality in both the Copa and WC now so I have faith in him. I'm more worried about how the full back will deal with Mbappe.
It's even more wild because Wayne's original tweet was in 2012, where Messi was already several years well into being the best in the world, and now here we are a decade on from that.
Messi obviously the quiet people are always the best drunks
Fair point.
If you managed to get him properly drunk, he could turn out to be a right laugh.
(Or a total psycho - but that too would be interesting to witness.)
(You wouldn't get Ronaldo shit faced, so that angle goes straight out the window with him.)
You really underrate Mbappé’s whole game, almost snobbish because he’s so fast. He’s a good footballer to go with being one of the quickest players of all, he didn’t want to be a striker because he wants to contribute to all parts of the game, unlike Ronaldo in his development and intentions. Mbappé is already a far better passer than Cristiano for example, the dribbling of Mbappe is as good as young Cristiano’s was.
And also he achieved more than Ronaldo and Neymar as a teenager, he scored 6 goals for Monaco in the Champions League at just 18, won the World Cup with a starring role at 19.
I really would like to know how Mbappe could kill the legend that is Messi even if France (if they get through against Morocco) go on to win the tournament. Many people seem to be judging Messis whole career on whether or not he lifts the trophy which is a pretty scandalous statement.
No it's not a stick to beat Mbappe with but you where using it as a yard stick to beat Messi with.
You really have to ask that? This all stems from your initial comment on wanting to see Mbappe break Messis back, metaphorically speaking. To me these type of comments leave little doubt in their interpretation which to me is pretty strange given what Messi has achieved in the footballing world and what Mbappe has yet to achieve. Each to their own I suppose.
He’s not technically superior for me at best marginally if at all, probably only thing young Cristiano had over Mbappe was long range shooting everything else Is pretty equal for me.
He’s also not far off Ronaldos 09-11 level as it is, he went super sayain though after, but maybe lost a bit all round excitement, that level stats wise may be above Mbappe but who knows he’s still younger than the age Ronaldo was when he left to Madrid.