A joy to watch.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Can still produce the magic moment but winning this tournament requires far more than moments.
Wait I thought this fella was a washed up bottler who doesn't show up for the big moments? 
Argentina are too reliant on Messi to win this tournament. As they have always been. As good as Messi is he can’t make Argentina beat better functioning teams every match throughout the KO stage.
Was collecting the ball in his own half like a deep lying playmaker. He has to do it all himself. Magical player.
Different standards for Messi. He's set that standard to be fair, but, the requirements for him to be seen to be having a good game are astronomically high. I'm not sure even now people really have clocked on how difficult it is to have his scoring rate with some of the positions he takes up in games. I guarantee it that if Benzema, Lewandowski, Haaland and Ronaldo spent as much time as deep as Messi does their scoring statistics would take a much bigger hit than Leo's has. Argentina were shite vs Saudi and even a disallowed goal and assist plus scored penalty wasn't enough to convince people Messi was decent. Crazy times.
He’s a one off it’s actually crazy that people think Ronaldo is on the same level, I think it’s consequence of this generation we are in, critical thinking is at an all time low.
Messi is an elite playmaker and elite scorer, we might not have that type of player for a very long time.
Much better 2nd half, but Argentina just look worse off compared to the other top sides.
Enzo needs to start
Hahahaha butthurt all of them. Love to see them suffer now.Why do I have the feeling that many in here couldn't wait for something like this to happen?
Calm down lad, make a brew and climb back into your Messi bed spread.
I’m sure a load of the games you posted were group matches, and then you’ve padded the very top games by including fecking Leipzig, Napoli, Dortmund and Lyon. That alone tells a desperate story.
Maybe try listing some of his actually biggest games, because that’s what we’re debating here, not the fecking group matches in the Champions League.
Like Liverpool away in 2019. Or 2018 vs. Roma away. Or the Juve ties in 2017.
Or any of his Bayern spankings. Like the 2020 tie in Lisbon.
Or his 4-1 spanking at home to PsG in 2021.
Or Madrid 3-1 in 2022.
Basically, most of his big CL knockout stage moments since 2017. He spent many years as the best player on the planet, and that Messi would surely have turned many of those games since 2017 (Bayern aside) into his side’s favour, but arguing he hasn’t been shite or invisible in the very biggest games & moments for a few years now is daft to say the least.
But hey man, he scored in the groups v. Leipzig, thus making me the moron.
This post is riddled with selection and confirmation bias.
While I do think Messi had some on and off performances, your selection of what you call "biggest games" is just taking the games Barcelona lost and blame it on Messi.
Why do you mention Liverpool away when he was great in the home game for exemple? Wasn't that game a big game? Why mention AS ROMA without mentionning the Chelsea game when he scored 2 goals and gave an assist in the 2nd leg? Are any of the game Barcelona won (before eventually loosing) not big games? Any game in the final stage of the CL is big until the next.
What it means is Messi was unable to single handedly carry Barcelone. Yes, it's true he couldn't. Would prime Messi have been able to turn these games? Some maybe, but probably not that many because the team was very disfunctionnal.
Also, I do think that Messi never really had the ability to change and boost the moral of his team when things go wrong, he wasn't a leader and was bad at doing that (I say was because it seems to me it changed a bit with Argentina recently). He never was able to do what Benzema did for Real Madrid last season for exemple, being the last man on the pitch believing his team can win and communicate this hope to his teamates.
Messi is now both the oldest player in World Cup history to have a goal and an assist in a match as well as the youngest (2006).
... And, 4 days later, Messi just showed why these fellas will have to keep on waiting for a while longer.
GOAT person doing GOAT things.
Brilliant goal at a time when it looked like things were going tits up for Argentina. Saved their skins yet again.
However this team isn't achieving anything at WC 22. They are dreadful.
However this team isn't achieving anything at WC 22. They are dreadful.
Happy to see United fans finally coming to the light 
GOAT.
The pressure on this man is immense, keep it up Leo.
GOAT.The pressure on this man is immense, keep it up Leo.
I've always felt the best argument you could really make for Cristiano was that they were equal players in the biggest games they played, which is a ton of them, because against elite teams, having an aerial presence made him as good a player as Messi.
Doesn't make him the player Messi is, but definitely something for the argument that he is at his tier all-time but below, and above the previous best players in the world, Zizou and Brazilian Ronaldo.
In the biggest matches (against elite teams), Messi has seperated himself, when you look at goal contributions (without starting to get into his higher match rating and more man of the match awards):
Against the Top 3 (all time), Messi is at 40 goals and 16 assists in 61 appearances vs Ronaldo's 30 goals in 7 assists in 71 appearances.
In finals (all time), Messi has 32 goals and 15 assists compared to Ronaldo's 20 goals and 2 assists.
In international major tournament finals, Messi has 2 goal contributions to Ronaldo's 0.
I don't believe anyone actually thinks CR7 is better than Messi, I think they know deep down inside he's not, but they prefer him for one reason or another and lie to themselves over it.
I think that there is even a debate is to the credit of CR7’s marketing team. They invented narratives on why CR7 is comparable or better than Messi, and the average fans who do not watch them both constantly, but read it from the newspaper, online or in forums will lap it up.
Ultimately, you need to justify with a ton of “whys” and be quite selective on your criterias for the CR7 side whereas one just needs to watch to know messi is better.
Heck even based on key stats, messi is better with the exception of goals because he is 2 years younger than CR7 hence less games.
Agreed.
It's also partly about the social media generation and increased importance of lookism. Many youngsters would like to associate themselves with Ronaldo due to his image, looks, so called BS leadership qualities etc. rather than just footballing abilities, so coming from a non-objective reference point when comparing Ronaldo with Messi.
To Sayros's point, I don't think even the most hardcore Ronaldo fans deep down believe that he's better. You'll find situations where fans will shout about how their favorite is the greatest, in declamatory fashion, while not actually believing it themselves. Almost as if convincing others will affirm what they're trying to convince themselves.
I don't think anyone actually believed that Van Nistelrooy was a better player than Henry when United fans were almost unanimously declaring him better, but nobody following the team during that tempestuous period of the United vs Arsenal rivalry was ever going to admit or argue that Henry was better.
That is a great goal and great moment for him in WC. If they loss/draw, they will be out of WC, so the goal is very important for the team.
Argentina though still look underwhelming, but if they still manage to qualify as group winner, they might still have chance to go as far as semi and face Brazil there.
Argentina though still look underwhelming, but if they still manage to qualify as group winner, they might still have chance to go as far as semi and face Brazil there.
For watchers of football, yes possibly. For non-watchers who gets flooded by “CR7 is GOAT” social media feed, they truly believe he is the greatest.
I mean a recent online survey showed had him, not Pele, as the player who has won the most World Cup says it all. Its not even non-watchers in this case, but a lack of football knowledge
You nailed it, though. Those can't tell you what a 4-4-2 formation is. I don't think the opinions of those who don't actually watch the sport matter. It's akin to me declaring that my friend's neighbor is the greatest hockey player ever - ahead of Gretzky - when I can't tell you the first thing about the NHL.
Hmm, that's genuinely surprising to me. Not Messi's record being so good, but Cristiano's not being right up there.
Cristiano took til his 27th game to score in the CL apparently, which makes sense as he was a proper winger for us and also he took 4 full seasons and until he was 21 to become a world class player whereas Messi was that by 19 and the end of his 2nd season I think, as I recall him being only an occasional bench option for Argentina in 2006 seeming ludicrous at the time as he was a terror as a dribbler and overall talent (even pressed back then) despite not being a great goal scorer. But he was still at the level of say an absolute peak Joe Cole if god had given him pace, even at 19.
Anyways, it's not that close, as Messi was the best passer in the world, at least among attacking players, for a long time, and Cristiano really was just goals and then some other positive qualities but nothing else you'd write a poem about.
Side note, Di Stefano's CL goalscoring record is incredible considering he must have had defensive responsibilities a fair amount, even if he was on a team with much more talent than their opponents.
I think it's the media and casual fans' obsession with goals.
In the truly insane part of me that I normally confess only to therapists, I think a goal is technically giving the ball away back to the opponent.
But yeah, it was mainly Cristiano scoring every week and Madrid vs Barca marketing hype that turned it into a debate I think, so I guess I sort of agree.
Some interesting question for the thread:
1) Who would you rather have at LW? Peak Messi or peak Cristiano? I don't think there's a definitive answer.
2) I think I once started a thread that asked how many Messi clones (at his peak) would you have in your World Class 11 and I came to believe it was 5, as he wouldn't get in at RB, both CB spots, goalkeeper or DM, and I went with Cristiano on the left for some aerial threat and help defensively on set pieces, but he just shaded LB for me in a pure tiki-taka system, especially if I had 3 proper defenders and a DM next to him.
3) In a Cristiano-X-Messi frontline, who would have been the GOAT 9 between them. Alternatively, in a Cristiano-Messi-X frontline, who would you want on the right?
The whole Messi vs Ronaldo thing seems to run on a gamebby game basis while they are on their last legs and have been for some time. Watch Ronnie score a goal in his next match and this thread will be full of people declaring him the greatest ever and vice versa when Messi scores a goal again. Portugal can go very far in this WC though imo. Their squad is strong.
Opposition fans clamouring for photos to catch the moment their own country were put to the sword
this, i think the debate is over despite what they do now. Both great but past their prime. Messi is still a joy to watch because he can give you the unexpected.
great great pictureOpposition fans clamouring for photos to catch the moment their own country were put to the sword
From those I've seen, Henry. Stretches the pitch, giving Messi space and an option in behind, while being the perfect compliment for Ronaldo with his penchant for drifting to and running the left channel coupled with his disinterest in taking up traditional positions in the box enabling Cristiano to do so.
I think the GOAT 9 for those 2 would have been prime Suarez to be honest, worked extremely hard , was unselfish (mostly) and extremely creative (plus scored boat loads of goals).
He's not very liked on here for obvious reasons but I would say he's pretty much the best example of a modern day striker.
If Ronaldo scores a goal like that and an important goal like that, idiots like Piers Morgan would be writing about it on Twitter for days to mock United. And if Ronaldo does score a goal like that, you just know Morgan will do that.
Interesting topic. To compliment Messi you need someone who can both finish the chances he creates and also link up with him with those quick combination passes. To compliment CR7 you need someone to put it on a plate for him for his superior off the ball. Offensively the obvious choice IMO will be Van Basten, who was a Benzema on steroids. However you need someone with high workrate to cover both messi and cr7 laziness and I am not so sure if both benzema or Van Basten can do that
Rooney in all combinations.
Suarez