Just because they lost their first game doesn't take away the fact they remain one of the favorites for the competition and I fully expect them to get through the group.
Lionel Messi | PSG Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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Oh ya. That is why I think too. I am just pointing out that Argentinian team is not a weak team. Messi may or may not do well in the tournament, but blame cannot be put on team mates every time.
I don't think that is actually being said?
Just that their squad isn't the best?
Which it quite obviously isn't?
Well today is a day that Messi did ok/well and he somehow is getting the blame for "bottling it"
If Messi wasnt Argentina's best player today I would love to know who was better?
Ah I thought you were saying that Reddit was a bad place to discuss soccer due to the fact that there are strange fanboys there and that it's wrong to accuse people of being like that on here because it's more informed / balanced.
That's my bad.
I personally think the soccer discussion here is usually of a much higher quality due to the fact the mods clamp down on the fanboy/ WUM nonsense.
Why will Argentina be considered as favorites if their squad was not good. Again, we are comparing Argentina with another current day NT and not to peak Brazil or peak Italy or France or something. Given the teams out there this WC, Argentina is one of the strongest ones.
Because they have over performed relative to the sum of their parts recently? Team work / harmony with a dash of emotion with it being Messi's last dance etc?
Also I didn't say it wasn't good (relative to SA) just that it's not anywhere near the best in the tournament.
I would argue that Brazil and France are easily the best "teams/squads" out there personally with any one of England/Spain/ Argentina or maybe even Germany not far behind.
I would also first and foremost praise Saudi Arabia for their performance today , then I would start assigning blame to the management and a couple of the players (Di Maria, De Paul and Parades for example) for their performance before I even got around to getting on Messi's back personally.
Who are all these good Argentina players? What's their names? Apart from the 2 old guys?
I would argue that they have only had one world class (and that's debatable due to his defensive deficiency/ contribution) player in Messi in their starting 11 today.
Maybe people could make a a case for Lautaro ,Romero and Dibu Martinez but I don't think they are at that level yet (and most likely won't reach that status).
The wide players today could be regarded as good technically but physically past it.
The midfield is more Henderson/ Wijnaldum than Kross/ Modric.
I don't rate Otamendi or the full backs highly either to be honest.
I don't think it's revisionism either , just look at the lineup.
He's been pretty good this season, but he played very poorly.
He's obviously not as good as he was in 2019, but there were reports he was dealing with a muscle problem, no?
That said, he's had these performances too many times at the World Cup where he's a peripheral figure.
He's obviously not as good as he was in 2019, but there were reports he was dealing with a muscle problem, no?
That said, he's had these performances too many times at the World Cup where he's a peripheral figure.
looked injured to me. If Saudi played like they Did today against peak messi it would have been about 10-0 at half time
Just to get into Messi's nerves
Then don't?Haven't watched, so can't really say anything about his performance yet.
Thanks for proving my point
You could argue that Romero and the keeper are good. L. Martinez too. But I do think they've been massively overhyped due to the run. Someone laughed at Messi naming England as one of the favourites. But their squad has thrice the quality Argentina do who are mostly about being solid and working hard. It's not to say that they don't have good players just that the favourites is completely at odds with the personnel. Let's see if how they respond to that loss.
I think overhyped is a good description. They were obviously shocked after scoring 4 offside goals in a row, but SA were very solid. But I just can't see all the quality in that Argentina squad. WC not over yet, but 2018 was his last chance I'd say. Messi himself looked a bit too sluggish but he's old now, but so did the rest of the team.
What exactly is the proof of Messi not been at the very highest level for a good few years now?
Is it the fact that he was the top goalscorer in LaLiga 2020/2021 with 30 goals in 34 games which was 7 goals ahead of Benzema?
Is it his overwhelming first place rating at whoscored.com in CL 2020/21 AND in the 6 big leagues.
Is it his 12 goals and 6 assists in 18 CL-games during the three last seasons.
Is it that he has the highest rating at sofaScore and whoscored.com in CL this season and that he has the by far best rating in all the 6 big leagues in Europe and a way way better rating than Neymar and Mbappé?
Is it that he was Top scorer (4), top assistprovider (5) and winner of the best player award in Copa America 2021?
Is it that he just have scored 12 goals and have 3 assists for Argentina in his last 7.5 games?
Messi is for sure not the player he once was but to say that he is not at the very highest level is just bullocks. It is the same delusion that makes some think that Ronaldo no longer is a top class player.
He's not been very good in big games for some time now. And yeah he is on his last legs. Ronnie isn't at the top anymore just because he scored a penalty just now.
Ronaldo isn't a top class player right now, just an average striker these days, maybe above average still, but i think this time he is kinda done.
Messi for sure offers more, and in your typical league game, he still is class, i wouldn't expect too much from him if Argentina gets to the knock-outs though.
It’s him being invisible to shite in big games (at the very highest level), for a few years now.
feck me man, that’s not even slightly controversial or debatable.
Insulting another member
Absolutely ridicolous statement! Messi dominated Copa america 2021. Top scorer, most assists, best player awards. If we take opta stats he has the second best rating in CL 2019/2020. Best rating in CL 2020/2021. 8th best rating in CL 2021/2022. Best rating so far in 2022/2023.
So he has been invisible to shite in big games for a few years now? WTF are you talking about:
Was Messi invisible and shite against Man City 2016/2017
Was Messi invisible and shite against PSG 2016/2017
Was Messi invisible and shite against Juventus 2017/2018
Was Messi invisible and shite against Chelsea 2017/2018
Was Messi invisible and shite against Tottenham 2018/2019 (by far the best individual game in Cl ever)
Was Messi invisible and shite against Lyon 2018/2019
Was Messi invisible and shite against Man United 2018/2019
Was Messi invisble and shite against Liverpool 2018/2019
Was Messi invisble and shite against Dortmund 2019/2020
Was Messi invisible and shite against Napoli 2019/2020
Was Messi invisible and shite against Juventus 2020/2021
Was Messi invisible and shite against PSG 2020/2021
Was Messi invisble and shite against Man City 2021/2022
Was Messi invisble and shite against Leipzig 2021/2022
If you compare Messi anno 2012/2013 with 2021/2022 Messi has declined. Saying that he has been invisible and shite in big games for a few years now is just half-whitted. You are a feckin moron.
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No they aren't anywhere near their prime. They are still top top players though. Ronaldo is rightly ditched by Man Utd. Doesn't fit Ten Hags playing style at all. Still Top 5 scorer in the world for sure If you just were looking for goals. Nunez, Haaland and Mitrovic the only ones ahead, wouldn't trade Ronaldo for anyone else if we were just counting goals. I have always hold Martial high (in contrary to this forum) but he will never score as many goals as Ronaldo. Ronaldos drout will not last forever.
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Which games are you talking about?
Calm down. No need to call somebody a moron.
People got waay ahead of themselves putting this Argentina team as a favourite. Prime Messi couldn't win the World cup with a good to great supporting cast, he needs to pull off a miracle here with this lot.
As a Barca fan, I never doubted Leo in our colours but with Argentina.. idk.
As a Barca fan, I never doubted Leo in our colours but with Argentina.. idk.
City 2nd leg last season. Real Madrid both games last season. Juventus both games this season. He was fairly average against Saudi Arabia mostly after the 1st 30 min, but so was the whole team tbf.
Calm down lad, make a brew and climb back into your Messi bed spread.
I’m sure a load of the games you posted were group matches, and then you’ve padded the very top games by including fecking Leipzig, Napoli, Dortmund and Lyon. That alone tells a desperate story.
Maybe try listing some of his actually biggest games, because that’s what we’re debating here, not the fecking group matches in the Champions League.
Like Liverpool away in 2019. Or 2018 vs. Roma away. Or the Juve ties in 2017.
Or any of his Bayern spankings. Like the 2020 tie in Lisbon.
Or his 4-1 spanking at home to PsG in 2021.
Or Madrid 3-1 in 2022.
Basically, most of his big CL knockout stage moments since 2017. He spent many years as the best player on the planet, and that Messi would surely have turned many of those games since 2017 (Bayern aside) into his side’s favour, but arguing he hasn’t been shite or invisible in the very biggest games & moments for a few years now is daft to say the least.
But hey man, he scored in the groups v. Leipzig, thus making me the moron.
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He missed a penalty and killed his team's momentum.
Mitrovic? What about Lewandowski or Kane?
It’s also a frankly hilarious example to bring up, a game in which he had a decent enough second leg but was so absolutely shite in the first home leg along with his side and got spanked 4-1 at home & which ultimately lead to them getting thrown out of the tournament again.
But he did play well in a group match vs. Leipzig recently so…
Exactly the same as last year against Real Madrid. He hasn't performed on the biggest stages for years now.
Both he and Ronaldo still got some moments of brilliance but are way past it.
And what of Ronaldo’s horrific form this season?
Scored every goal for Barca during the tie but that missed penalty was bad. Dembele effed up momentum a lot more than Messi did
Calm down lad, make a brew and climb back into your Messi bed spread.
I’m sure a load of the games you posted were group matches, and then you’ve padded the very top games by including fecking Leipzig, Napoli, Dortmund and Lyon. That alone tells a desperate story.
Maybe try listing some of his actually biggest games, because that’s what we’re debating here, not the fecking group matches in the Champions League.
Like Liverpool away in 2019. Or 2018 vs. Roma away. Or the Juve ties in 2017.
Or any of his Bayern spankings. Like the 2020 tie in Lisbon.
Or his 4-1 spanking at home to PsG in 2021.
Or Madrid 3-1 in 2022.
Basically, most of his big CL knockout stage moments since 2017. He spent many years as the best player on the planet, and that Messi would surely have turned many of those games since 2017 (Bayern aside) into his side’s favour, but arguing he hasn’t been shite or invisible in the very biggest games & moments for a few years now is daft to say the least.
But hey man, he scored in the groups v. Leipzig, thus making me the moron.
solid post to be honest
Agree there. The screamer was nice too. The missed pen and a very good chance ruined it a bit though.
At Psg he is is surounded with world class players while at Argentina he is not. And yes he has declined, no doubt about it. But he can still provide some magic and his playmaking skills are world class. That said, I dont see Argentina among the top 5 favorites in this tournament.
Well football is a team effort and some of the versions of Barcelona Messi has played on has gone from worlds best team to not even top 10 in Europe. A huge rollercoaster of a ride. With coaches as Koeman, Setien, Martino etc and gross management of the clubs officials. Even in those dark times he produced great numbers. That said, off course he has had his bad moments, despite beeing the best footballer of all time.
Calm down lad, make a brew and climb back into your Messi bed spread.
I’m sure a load of the games you posted were group matches, and then you’ve padded the very top games by including fecking Leipzig, Napoli, Dortmund and Lyon. That alone tells a desperate story.
Maybe try listing some of his actually biggest games, because that’s what we’re debating here, not the fecking group matches in the Champions League.
Like Liverpool away in 2019. Or 2018 vs. Roma away. Or the Juve ties in 2017.
Or any of his Bayern spankings. Like the 2020 tie in Lisbon.
Or his 4-1 spanking at home to PsG in 2021.
Or Madrid 3-1 in 2022.
Basically, most of his big CL knockout stage moments since 2017. He spent many years as the best player on the planet, and that Messi would surely have turned many of those games since 2017 (Bayern aside) into his side’s favour, but arguing he hasn’t been shite or invisible in the very biggest games & moments for a few years now is daft to say the least.
But hey man, he scored in the groups v. Leipzig, thus making me the moron.
Messi sure scores outside the box a lot.
Looked better after he dropped a bit deeper in the 2nd half.
He's holding up his end of the bargain and doing everything he can. He needs better players around him. Giving in to the inevitable comparison, it is right now the opposite of Ronaldo at Portugal where he has match-winners all around him to carry his ego.
We're looking at 2 goals, 1 assist in 2 games. Crazy to think that if his Saudi goal and assist weren't a hairline fraction offside we could be looking at 3 goals and 2 assists in 2 games.
Argentina have at times looked very poor collectively but there's no doubting his influence, even in the first game.
Argentina have at times looked very poor collectively but there's no doubting his influence, even in the first game.