Great player, but he has not done enough on the world stage for me. One of the best definitely, but surely he has to win a World Cup with Argentina to go down as the best?
Lionel Messi - Performances
- Thread starter Rado_N
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I don't care who the greatest is, and most of us wouldn't have a clue anyway, but regarding that bit - Of course not.
I only caught the tail end of Maradona's career so i cant say if he was better or not (in the bits i saw Messi is better), equally its amusing how anyone can say hes better than Pele and then say in the same sentence they never saw Pele play 
He is right up there now though, has to be. Better than anyone in the last 25 or so years that ive watched football. Not too long ago plenty of people thought he was abit overrated and it was Guardiola's team that made him shine. Looks like it was the opposite.
The only player ive seen come close is fat Ronaldo for all of about 2 years.
He is right up there now though, has to be. Better than anyone in the last 25 or so years that ive watched football. Not too long ago plenty of people thought he was abit overrated and it was Guardiola's team that made him shine. Looks like it was the opposite.
The only player ive seen come close is fat Ronaldo for all of about 2 years.
I think it's because of this haste to either crown people or bash them. I don't understand It to be honest, and it does happen both ways. All I can say is that he's the best I have seen and very comfortably, and I find it hard to imagine anyone better.I only caught the tail end of Maradona's career so i cant say if he was better or not (in the bits i saw Messi is better), equally its amusing how anyone can say hes better than Pele and then say in the same sentence they never saw Pele play
He is right up there now though, has to be. Better than anyone in the last 25 or so years that ive watched football. Not too long ago plenty of people thought he was abit overrated and it was Guardiola's team that made him shine. Looks like it was the opposite.
The only player ive seen come close is fat Ronaldo for all of about 2 years.
ThanksNot too shabby a game:
vs. Bayern:
Funny part is, apparently some who "watched the match" thought he did feck all for 77 minutes
boggles the mind. You missed the through ball to Neymar, whichhe miscontrolled and Neuer cleared I must admit after yesterday I am prepared to rank him higher than certain players in the GOAT list.. that is what we need from Lionel, more career defining moments to embellish what is already one hell of a legacy. Banging goal after goal in La Liga doesn't equate to all time greatness, it is these huge magical moments on the big stage which help to compare one footballing giant to another.
I do not think he needs to win a world cup, keep doing this on the Champions League stage.. and just put in a solid performance next world cup, doesn't even need to be a finalist - he's already done that, just look like the Messi who plays for Barca and leave behind some magic moments on the international stage too.
His career might mirror that of Di Stefano, the greatest club footballer of all time. I can see him winning 5 CL's.
I do not think he needs to win a world cup, keep doing this on the Champions League stage.. and just put in a solid performance next world cup, doesn't even need to be a finalist - he's already done that, just look like the Messi who plays for Barca and leave behind some magic moments on the international stage too.
His career might mirror that of Di Stefano, the greatest club footballer of all time. I can see him winning 5 CL's.
for feck sake. watching his highlights... he makes everyone else look like like a pub player.
Without the WC he might be forever regarded as 3rd best behind Pele and Maradona though, which is nothing to be ashamed of. But he does have the potential to challenge those two, just need more big stage career defining moments.
Yes but on the other hand Maradona doesn't have the greatest club career to fall back on and yes I am aware of his greatness with Napoli and Pele's brilliance with Santos, but winning 5 CL's in the modern era if he did get to that stage and being instrumental in most of them, with a legacy of magic moments in these elite european games..
He would have a great shout. I am not saying he is past them yet based on one game, but we should keep an open mind for now... he clearly is intent on providing a few more surprises and I wouldn't put it past him to blow our minds alot more than he did last night. His dribbling last night was so good and in such a big game, mixing elements of the younger Messi with the wiser head of the past few years.. if he can maintain this until 32 years of age, then wow...
I have been dying to see a performance like that from Leo at this stage of a top competition and it was so good to see. Some posters on here get criticised for favouring older players but it is not true, produce the goods and the player in question will get the praise they deserve and he was majestic last night - pleasure to witness him in action.. literally leapt off the sofa after both goals.
Messi does have better club career than anyone, judging by his goals, assists, performances, consistency and trophies won over the years, but is that good enough to challenge Pele and Maradona I doubt so (for example even Ronaldo has been brilliant in his club career in terms of goals and consistency, but to go ahead of Pele you need to match both his club and international career, which is equally brilliant, and Maradona who creates legacy in both club and international stage by single-handedly leading his side, which is not the strongest, to ultimate glory)
When people rate GOAT they will point at everything from club football to biggest stage to discuss their legacy. Even Zidane and Fat Ronaldo has WC under their belts. Messi himself knows he need this one too, it's the only piece missing.
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He's the greatest of all time, and he doesn't need a World Cup to prove it. Don't see how people are still debating it, maybe a couple of decades down the line everyone will look back and just see how ridiculously good he was, because there will never be anyone like him again (or Ronaldo imo) for a long time...
I know Messi is great but that's just getting abit too far there. Imagine 50 years from now how would you convince your grandkid that Messi is definitely better than Pele and Maradona and it shouldn't be worth a debate?
How can Maradona be considered GOAT if he doesnt have Champions League? Messi doesnt need WC just like Maradona doesnt need CL to be considered GOAT.
Got up at 4:30 AM in the freezing cold to watch the Barca/Bayern match. His performance made it worthwhile. That second goal was just ridiculous. He is a level above the best players in the world. Astonishing.
There's no doubt he's the best, last night showed how he excels at everything attacker should have.
He is the most talented human alive. Football's the toughest, largest talent pool in the world and this guy is above everyone - by some margin.
So good that I spunked by 10,000th post on him.
So good that I spunked by 10,000th post on him.
There's some good stuff being written about him online today (Barney Ronay is, as always, well worth a read) and one of the adjectives that really struck a cord with me was "minimalist". Everything he does is so stripped down and simple. The least possible amount of movements to achieve a specific goal.
I've always thought step-overs were a pointless bit of ostentation at the highest level. Might be handy beating a pub footballer but no elite defender should fall for something so obvious. Am I right in thinking that Messi doesn't do step-overs at all?
I've always thought step-overs were a pointless bit of ostentation at the highest level. Might be handy beating a pub footballer but no elite defender should fall for something so obvious. Am I right in thinking that Messi doesn't do step-overs at all?
the people saying he did nothing for the first 77 minutes ... seriously, do they even like football?
I watched the game on DVR yesterday, and he had a great outing, but you would think he played by himself against the entire Bayern team judging by the comments on here.
Whatever happened to accurate and moderate praise?
Whatever happened to accurate and moderate praise?
Define accurate and moderate? Does that mean praise that exactly matches your own opinion?
It was a brilliant individual performance, against a very good team in a really high profile game. Including two superb goals and a quality assist (would have had more assists if it wasn't for Nueur's brilliance)
If that doesn't deserve hyperbole, I don't know what does.
Messi is that good that I can honestly, hand on heart say I've seen better from him. On the regular.
He's put in better performances but rarely against such high quality opposition. If only because he rarely plays such high quality opposition.
Yeah I've never seen him do one.
No player ever does that, ever.
If a performance like that got moderate praise then I guess we're never going to be amazed.
Occasionally he does, or variations thereof, the difference is that when he does it he actually fools the defender more often than not. True to his style it's all purely functional, "minimalist" as well (more a step-over rather than step-overs, if you see what I mean). See around 1:00 in this vid (and sorta again on 1:12) which, by the way, is a very lovely vintage performance worth watching the whole six-seven minutes of.
He's always had some trickery (in general) in his locker when dribbling, by the way, but it's all done in such a low-key way that it's barely noticeable unlike the usual flash that tends to come with it. Some examples from this season,
@adexkola I see what you mean, of course he's had many more games where he was a far more of a constant threat or literally running the game for long periods, but given the stage and the opponents what he did over 90 minutes wasn't exactly a common occurence (very high level of ball control, chance creation and finishing), so definitely extremely praise-worthy. I do, however, not at all understand why so many are suddenly so hyperbolic with stuff like "best of all-time" (which is way too soon to even begin to call, in my opinion, and feels completely knee-jerk to say after the 1st leg of a two-legged tie anyway) or even the stuff like "clearly the best player in the world, a level above" etc. when that's not really something that needed saying after this particular game, but rather for his entire season so far which has been outstanding.
The small dribblers tend to be minimalist due to their agility(baggio, maradona, iniesta). He doesn't do them cause it doesn't take much effort for him to change direction and speed. Btw many top class footballers have been done by a step over.
Not really. Alfredo Di Stefano is considered by a few to be the greatest ever, despite playing for 3 national teams, he never played in a World Cup.
I've found that you lose a bit when you're watching a game after reading all sorts of conclusions about it from other people. If you'd watched that live and in the moment, maybe you'd have felt differently?
Probably not , seeing as fat Ronaldo and Ronaldinho managed to successfully do it at the top level
This is the conclusion I came to. I was expecting more.
As someone else pointed out, Messi might do a stepover (singular) before changing direction and that's fine but doing a string of them seems completely unnecessary to me, no matter who does them or did them in the past. The fact that Messi obviously doesn't see the need to do them either, would confirm my theory.
Agree with that and on Ronay. There is nevertheless a difference between the pointless Robinho/Denilson execution of the stepover and the way Ronaldo did it. With him, it was more about the shimmy and the dropped shoulder, with the stepover thrown in almost incidentally at times, to throw the defender off balance.
Now there's a technique I'm a big fan of!
I saw some old footage of Dennis Law absolutely rinsing someone near the half way line with a little drop of the shoulder that is glorious to watch. Tried digging it out a few times on youtube but not joy, more's the pity.
Not really an overdose of stepovers but he still does them from time to time. I felt bad for Scholesy there
edit: I thought the vid contained a step over but it's more the style of dribbling you mentioned preferring.
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will argentina ever put him above maradona, or is that just not done?
the two big differences is that maradona played in argentina for a huge club -boca juniors- and that he won a world cup
that's why he will alwats be regarded as the best of them two, at least by the most of the ones that are old enough to see them both play
It's impossible to imagine a player than Messi. How is that even possible? I can't get my head around such a possibility.
not a necessity but if you can execute them like this man, very effective tool to have in your locker. Can't stand skills without a purpose or lack of effect but the likes of Ronaldinho, Ronaldo.. even Zidane and Di Stefano would pull off step overs and do it to bamboozle the opposition.
Messi doesn't need it, no one does but if used properly it can be devastating.
Football is going to be boring after Messi and Ronaldo retire, the best player in the world would have to endure the "he's good but he's nothing compared to Messi and Ronaldo".
The world needs to end the day Messi retires I don't think I'll be able to cope.
The world needs to end the day Messi retires I don't think I'll be able to cope.
tbf the next bpitw could be a lot better than ronaldo but not even close to messi