Lionel Messi - Performances

He has carried Barcelona this season imo.

Similar to the 2012-2013 season, but to a greater degree.

He's their entire attack. Without him, they'd be completely fecked.
 
Messi may be better than most of the greats I named, that doesn’t mean he is way better and a level above.

Pele is the only player to win 3 World Cups, Charlton the main reason England won in 66, Maradona the main reason Argentina won the World Cup. Di Stefano the main reason Real won the first 5 European Cups. To say Messi is a level above these players is debatable. Better maybe, another level arguably not.

Also you say players can train all they want and would never be as good as Messi. Yet no one is born to be able to play football or any sport for that matter. Natural talent is a myth. Messi has had to train and practice just as much as any professional, some people are just more intelligent and faster learners than others in some areas.
Natural talent is most definitely not a myth. Of course he has to train for it. But the natural talent is obvious. Ronaldinho in 05 or 2006 said he wasn't even the best player in Barcelona, when people were saying he's one of the best ever, referring to 18 year old Messi at the time. No amount of training can put you to that level. Not everyone is equal and it's all a matter of dedication. That is a myth. Some people are naturally talented and of course still have to train, but they will get to the top much easier, and in messi's case, he's the most naturally talented player ever, a pure footballer so to speak. That is stuff you can't train.
 
You can't say he's a level above all the other all time greats when he plays the way he does for Argentina, he is phenomenal obviously.
 
Natural talent is most definitely not a myth. Of course he has to train for it. But the natural talent is obvious. Ronaldinho in 05 or 2006 said he wasn't even the best player in Barcelona, when people were saying he's one of the best ever, referring to 18 year old Messi at the time. No amount of training can put you to that level. Not everyone is equal and it's all a matter of dedication. That is a myth. Some people are naturally talented and of course still have to train, but they will get to the top much easier, and in messi's case, he's the most naturally talented player ever, a pure footballer so to speak. That is stuff you can't train.

It is not about natural talent, because people do not have an evolutionary gene that allows them to be able to kick a ball around.

Some people are born to be able to learn faster than others. It is nothing to do with being born knowing how to play football.
 
It is not about natural talent, because people do not have an evolutionary gene that allows them to be able to kick a ball around.

Some people are born to be able to learn faster than others. It is nothing to do with being born knowing how to play football.

I think you're arguing the same point really, just THT68 doesn't like it being called natural talent and bosnian_red does.

I think talent is simply the proclivity to learn a skill faster, you're not saying Messi could learn any skill faster than anyone else are you?
 
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It is not about natural talent, because people do not have an evolutionary gene that allows them to be able to kick a ball around.

Some people are born to be able to learn faster than others. It is nothing to do with being born knowing how to play football.

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting he'd have been this good regardless of what field he chose because of his learning ability?
 
It is not about natural talent, because people do not have an evolutionary gene that allows them to be able to kick a ball around.

Some people are born to be able to learn faster than others. It is nothing to do with being born knowing how to play football.
From what I've experienced along the years that only holds true as long as one of the two actually got some sort of brain damage. A fully functional brain of let's say a healthy trucker got pretty much the same potential as that of a scientist. What defines the difference between them are their subconscious learning strategies and those strategies can be aquired. Some peoples' brains just learn to use them naturally because of beneficial environmental influences (visual, auditory and kinesthetic experiences) while others start habituating less effective strategies. I'm currently helping dyslexic kids below the age of 10 to aquire helpful learning strategies and some of them improved dramatically after just 2 hours of training. I believe pretty much every person on the planet with a healthy brain can learn to use it more effectivley.

I believe talent is a very real thing and that it's mostly biological as well as to some degree psychological. There are people who's sense of balance is naturally superior to others but as long as that person doesn't develop an interest in gymnastics and got the fitting (subconscious) motivational strategies as well as a decent kinesthetic learing strategy, he propably won't benefit much from it. The combination of fitting (supportive of each other) biological and psychological traits makes what I'd call talent. In the case of Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo it's a rare combination that's different for each of them but can be very successfully aplied in the context of football.
 
It's crazy how he scores so many goals not being in the box that much

He seems to always enter the attacks late after being involved in the buildup from midfield

Barca will be in a lot of trouble the day he retires
 
It's crazy how he scores so many goals not being in the box that much

He seems to always enter the attacks late after being involved in the buildup from midfield

Barca will be in a lot of trouble the day he retires

Without doubt. Without Messi Barca are like any other team.
 
It's crazy how he scores so many goals not being in the box that much

He seems to always enter the attacks late after being involved in the buildup from midfield

Barca will be in a lot of trouble the day he retires

He's irreplaceable like Ferguson, all you can do is hope you get the next best thing.
 
You can't say he's a level above all the other all time greats when he plays the way he does for Argentina, he is phenomenal obviously.

How would you say he plays for Argentina? Because every time I watch him, he has to play deeper and carry a bunch of failures to victory.

And I know, individually they look like a great team at least attack wise, but every game is just Leo and 10 statues watching him play football.
 
How would you say he plays for Argentina? Because every time I watch him, he has to play deeper and carry a bunch of failures to victory.

And I know, individually they look like a great team at least attack wise, but every game is just Leo and 10 statues watching him play football.

Every time? Failures ? Yeah players on that team have let him down but he has also let them down. This idea that Leo has always been the sole warrior for Argentina (a team with a majority of world class players) isn't true. It has happened many times but it isn't always the case.

If you think Messi has been as good for the NT then you are insulting his club performances.
 
He already has a bit. His decline is still up in the universe but compare him to Messi of 4-5 years ago he has declined a bit especially in dribbling
He has declined a bit, but his way of playing hides it. Even if he doesn't have the same dribble or speed anymore, he still finds the spaces to run into and still has the killer pass, still great.
 
I'm not sure what you mean. Are you suggesting he'd have been this good regardless of what field he chose because of his learning ability?

From what I've experienced along the years that only holds true as long as one of the two actually got some sort of brain damage. A fully functional brain of let's say a healthy trucker got pretty much the same potential as that of a scientist. What defines the difference between them are their subconscious learning strategies and those strategies can be aquired. Some peoples' brains just learn to use them naturally because of beneficial environmental influences (visual, auditory and kinesthetic experiences) while others start habituating less effective strategies. I'm currently helping dyslexic kids below the age of 10 to aquire helpful learning strategies and some of them improved dramatically after just 2 hours of training. I believe pretty much every person on the planet with a healthy brain can learn to use it more effectivley.

I believe talent is a very real thing and that it's mostly biological as well as to some degree psychological. There are people who's sense of balance is naturally superior to others but as long as that person doesn't develop an interest in gymnastics and got the fitting (subconscious) motivational strategies as well as a decent kinesthetic learing strategy, he propably won't benefit much from it. The combination of fitting (supportive of each other) biological and psychological traits makes what I'd call talent. In the case of Messi or Cristiano Ronaldo it's a rare combination that's different for each of them but can be very successfully aplied in the context of football.

No one is born to be able to play a sport, sports are not built into human evolution and biology sk to suggest they are born able to kick a ball around is absurd.
 
A headless hen in a hurry would see this little guy is pretty good at football.
 
No one is born to be able to play a sport, sports are not built into human evolution and biology sk to suggest they are born able to kick a ball around is absurd.
Again,

Are you suggesting he'd have been this good regardless of what field he chose because of his learning ability?
 
:lol: You should try watching Argentina from time to time, he's the one who carries the team every match.
I do, he's great but nowhere close to what we've seen at Barca. Certainly not near the consistency.
How would you say he plays for Argentina? Because every time I watch him, he has to play deeper and carry a bunch of failures to victory.

And I know, individually they look like a great team at least attack wise, but every game is just Leo and 10 statues watching him play football.
Even his level drops, everyone's level drops in that team for whatever reason. He's great for them but hardly out of this world. Certainly not near the levels of being the a level above the best players to have ever played the game.
 
Thank feck for Youtube.

I can show my kids that I was fortunate enough to watch both Messi and Ronaldo play in their primes against each other while at their absolute peaks.
 
He has declined a bit, but his way of playing hides it. Even if he doesn't have the same dribble or speed anymore, he still finds the spaces to run into and still has the killer pass, still great.
Yeah he's definitely a touch slower much like Aguero is these days. Still phenomenal footballers. He's going to go on a while.
 
I do, he's great but nowhere close to what we've seen at Barca. Certainly not near the consistency.

International football by it's very nature is inconsistent. Think about it, it's different squads that you'll meet up with once every 3 or 4 months whereas at club level you're playing and training with the same players every single day.

I wouldn't really say he's inconsistent for Argentina either. He's always the one that does something to win them the match. He obviously isn't the player he is at Barcelona but what I say above should be factored in as well as quality of teammates. They wouldn't be at the World Cup if it wasn't for him. They wouldn't have reached the last final or the last two Copa finals.
 
You can't say he's a level above all the other all time greats when he plays the way he does for Argentina, he is phenomenal obviously.
If it wasn't for him Argentina wouldn't even play in Russia, without him we lost every single game playing horrible.
 
No one is born to be able to play a sport, sports are not built into human evolution and biology sk to suggest they are born able to kick a ball around is absurd.
Not saying he's "born to play football". That would be ridiculous. Still I believe his biological traits like a low center of gravity, muscular structure, sense of balance etc. in that exact composition are an integral part to his capabilities as well as his limitations as a player. I doubt someone with the built of Drogba would be able to replicate Messi's playstyle to the same degree of effectiveness simply because of physical limitations like inertia.
 
International football by it's very nature is inconsistent. Think about it, it's different squads that you'll meet up with once every 3 or 4 months whereas at club level you're playing and training with the same players every single day.

I wouldn't really say he's inconsistent for Argentina either. He's always the one that does something to win them the match. He obviously isn't the player he is at Barcelona but what I say above should be factored in as well as quality of teammates. They wouldn't be at the World Cup if it wasn't for him. They wouldn't have reached the last final or the last two Copa finals.
Some players do maintain their standards especially those fortunate enough to play for a national team that's made from a dominant club. What we can say from Messi and Ronaldo is that a team has a huge impact on the performance levels of a star regardless of how good they are or perceived to be.
 
He's the best player ever. He typically plays well against everyone. He'd never scored against us before this year.

As for overly defensive, you can certainly say that about many Chelsea games recently but not the ones against Barca.

Certainly less defensive than before but Chelsea still didn't open up quite like they do against teams in the PL. Hazard and Fabregas were nowhere to be found.