Let’s talk DM

Still think Martinez should be tried there in pre season IF we can get the deal done in time
 
ThemanGiggsy said:
You beat me to it. absolutely no chance it happens, but he is crazy athletic, has great pace, and has an eye for a pass
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We need to sell Bailly while his stock is high after today's game. He's never going to be fit enough to challenge for a position. Could have been good but the best ability is availability and he just doesn't stack up in that regard. Would highly disagree he has an eye for a pass too! Nothing in his passing stats besides basic pass completion to support this.
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
We need to sell Bailly while his stock is high after today's game. He's never going to be fit enough to challenge for a position. Could have been good but the best ability is availability and he just doesn't stack up in that regard. Would highly disagree he has an eye for a pass too! Nothing in his passing stats besides basic pass completion to support this.
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Yeah a good pre season and we just might convince someone to sign him permanently
 
Kostov said:
Imagine that, we end up paying 50m pounds for a CB and we need him at CDM where by most accounts he is not very good.
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Says who, He played there 15 times under Ten Hag and he found him to be very good. It was only when he had to move him to CB that he found that he was even better. He has also played at LB. We need a couple of Utility players who can slot into a few positions.
 
Martinez is coming here due to his versatility to play positions like LCB, LB and CDM.

We will use him until we go full out on a CDM next season.
 
Bestietom said:
Says who, He played there 15 times under Ten Hag and he found him to be very good. It was only when he had to move him to CB that he found that he was even better. He has also played at LB. We need a couple of Utility players who can slot into a few positions.
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Did he? I’’ve read couple of posts on here who claimed that he wasn’t very good. And as you can imagine if he was a 50m pound worth of CDM he would have played regularly in front of Edson Alvarez in a position that is much more crucial in football.
 
Kostov said:
Did he? I’’ve read couple of posts on here who claimed that he wasn’t very good. And as you can imagine if he was a 50m pound worth of CDM he would have played regularly in front of Edson Alvarez in a position that is much more crucial in football.
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Check his stats on Wilkapedia. Read them fully.
 
A dm is only needed is EtH wants a dm. If we get de jong he's perfectly capable of playing the busquets role, martinez is capable of playing a more defensive dm role and then garner can also play that role, so I don't see it as a must have. It seems eth wants a holding midfielder rather than a defensive destroyer type.
 
a DM won't be so important if we work defensively as a team anyway.

Our biggest problem has always been space between CB and CM when teams counter attack us. So often our CBs will be standing at the half way line then backing off, while our midfield is left exposed as they try to stop the counter.

We noticed though against Liverpool the CB's pushed up way higher, and De Gea was coming off his line/out of his box quite consistently. This will be a big improvement going forward - limiting the space is key.

You could have prime Kante in our midfield last year and nothing would make a difference.
 
Lentwood said:
We need to be careful that we don't get so fixated on this idea of a DM as a 'destroyer' that we don't forget they need to actually be able to play football.

It's one thing playing for a side like Brighton or Leicester and acting as a classic DM, but it's another being a 'DM' in a side like United, who will face teams who put 10-men behind the ball or will press really high in an attempt to force us into mistakes.

In either scenario, whomever we have in CM needs to be exceptional on the ball. This is why I think it's so hard to find someone to do that job. Personally, and I'll get stick from the Football Manager scouts here, I don't think the likes of Bissouma or Ndidi are good enough on the ball to do that role in an elite side.
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Agree. People love to point to Kante or Casemiro as these ideal “destroyers” but Kante is fantastic on the ball and carrying it and Casemiro is no slouch also plays behind two of the best midfielders of a generation.

Our fan base is still obsessed with this notion of pace and physicality being these vital traits when Pep has been pissing the league putting these things on the back burner compared to quality on the ball and technical ability. You can find a bunch of midfielders that just run around and tackle people while being useless on the ball. Much more difficult to find a midfielder that is elite at both ends.
 
Adam-Utd said:
a DM won't be so important if we work defensively as a team anyway.

Our biggest problem has always been space between CB and CM when teams counter attack us. So often our CBs will be standing at the half way line then backing off, while our midfield is left exposed as they try to stop the counter.

We noticed though against Liverpool the CB's pushed up way higher, and De Gea was coming off his line/out of his box quite consistently. This will be a big improvement going forward - limiting the space is key.

You could have prime Kante in our midfield last year and nothing would make a difference.
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Correct me if I am wrong but ETH's team always had a DM whether it was Alvarez or Shone. In my opinion there's 3 reasons why we're not adding a DM

A- We're running out of money. De Jong, Malacia and Martinez will be signed, we might go for Antony and there's question marks whether we need to sign a striker as well.
B- Club politics. Its evident that there are influential people within the club who wants the McT project to work especially now that he'll be playing alongside FDJ rather then Pogba. This might be his last chance
C- Martinez strikes me as the OShea style of player in terms of versatility. If shit hits fan ETH might decide to play him as DM if needed
 
A specialised CDM could come handy in tough matches where we need to grind out the result. It gives lot of tactical flexibility too.

I still strongly believe we need a CDM and a 20 goals forward to be a serious challenger.
 
devilish said:
Correct me if I am wrong but ETH's team always had a DM whether it was Alvarez or Shone. In my opinion there's 3 reasons why we're not adding a DM

A- We're running out of money. De Jong, Malacia and Martinez will be signed, we might go for Antony and there's question marks whether we need to sign a striker as well.
B- Club politics. Its evident that there are influential people within the club who wants the McT project to work especially now that he'll be playing alongside FDJ rather then Pogba. This might be his last chance
C- Martinez strikes me as the OShea style of player in terms of versatility. If shit hits fan ETH might decide to play him as DM if needed
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I don't believe Schone was a pure DM, more of a box to box with good defensive capabilities.

You could argue Fred is his Schone, alongside FDJ and DVB (Fernandes) I guess we will see what his best midfield setup is once everybody is signed.

I can see maybe Martinez as a CDM with De Jong and Fernandes ahead as 8's.
 
People have seen our midfield shambles in recent years, rightly identified that a DM was needed and are now rigidly sticking with the idea that we need that type of midfielder above all else.

But they're not taking into account other changes that might impact the make-up of the midfield we need. Namely the new manager, his previous preferences in midfield, the increased emphasis on possession and technical ability, the impact of greater support in central areas from our CBs and fullbacks, as well as (if De Jong arrives) the fact that we'd have signed a midfielder whose game would be directly impaired by certain profiles of DM.

All of which may simply mean the manager doesn't want the same sort of midfielders they do and he may well be right.
 
As we know ETH prefers 4-2-3-1. If we sign de jong, he will start in a double pivot with one of Fred/McTominay. Signing 2 starting central midfielders is probably unrealistic. So no defensive midfielders . The playing style will be possession based all over the pitch which helps reduce the need for a DM.

de Jong - Fred/McTominay

Sancho - Bruno - Eriksen

Ronaldo
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Sancho and Eriksen will probably switch flanks regularly
 
Bojan Djordjic said:
Are people still taking it for granted that we're signing Frenkie? Surely at this point, it's worth planning for other eventualities where a DM might be required.
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I still think that regardless if it’s FDJ or someone similar, ETH is going to try out the systems he knows first. At the point in time a DM is a fan want not an ETH need
 
golden_blunder said:
I still think that regardless if it’s FDJ or someone similar, ETH is going to try out the systems he knows first. At the point in time a DM is a fan want not an ETH need
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But he does play a DM. Edson Alvarez is one. Didn't do it with FdJ because he likes to collect deep from defence but that's not to say the playbook doesn't get ripped up if Frenkie falls through.
 
Ten Hag would not be drawn on the specifics of the De Jong pursuit, but it was telling he chose to focus on United’s need for a holding midfielder. Clearly, he sees De Jong as that type of player. Not all those who sit need to have tackling as a prime characteristic — Michael Carrick being one from United’s past. Ten Hag wants competency on the ball. He also sees his midfield as rotating, allowing for those moments when De Jong carries the ball up the pitch.

United do have other targets, but Ten Hag appears to be saying the possibilities are not extensive due to specific requirements and he will develop from within if one isn’t recruited.

Whether that means adapting Scott McTominay or Fred or raising one up from the academy we will see. James Garner is the closest, but injury has kept him from showing his abilities in any friendlies so far. Charlie Savage and Zidane Iqbal have done well, but both are 19 and would seem a distance off regular first-team football at United.
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Whitwell's interpretation from the piece in The Athletic those quotes come from seems to be that FDJ was the player he was alluding to.
 
I have been wondering why Edson Alvarez name didn't come up as an option for a DM signing. He started for ETH as a DM. He has been in the national team since 19 and he is only 24 now.
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
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Looking from retrospective point of view, I think OP was spot on in his assessment what ETH wanted. I also believed from the start this is not going to work for us, because we don't have anyone to pair him with and cover in midfield, it isn't going to be Fred/McTominay (because they are not suited to being last defensive midfielder at all), and it certainly wouldn't be Eriksen (because he's always been the most attacking player of the 3 in midfield). Therefore, I was against signing De Jong until we have a CDM/defensively - oriented B2B midfielder.

I believe it became obvious to Ten Hag after the first two games - with that GK who will never go for high balls, CBs will be constantly tested with aerial duels. Which is fine, as long as you have someone who can fight for that second ball in midfield and start the attack. Whether De Jong is that type of combative midfielder I don't know, but still it is far from ideal whoever you pair him with considering our options. This is also the reason McTominay has been given more game time ahead of Fred in midfield - we needed that presence in Central areas.

I was always pushing the idea of getting a CDM first, because it opens up a lot of possibilities for us to balance the team. I think getting Casemiro first will genuinely be a game-changer for us, and now I'd love to get De Jong as well, but we will see improved performances of all our midfield players - I'm sure of that.

I think people strongly underestimate the fact 2/3 midfielders are constantly playing out of their nominal role (or the role they are most euited to). This has been caused by A) lack of naturally defensively oriented midfielder and B) the fact the whole team is built and adjusted to accommodate Bruno. Point A has been addressed, I'm sure point B will change sooner than later, once ETH stabilises the ship a bit.
 
DM is good to go now. I look forward to seeing Case settle in for us there.

The problem is they don't have the ball carrier next to him for a possession approach. Ericksen's a pro and will do his best in that role in most matches for us, but he really is best used in Bruno's role as a table setter for the attack and this is why I have always seen him as competition and as flexible depth. I don't think he can hold up to the intensity EtH requires this team to play at and when he's in that role we have great passing from midfield but not the ball control. If nothing changes there by Thursday then I am sure that will be the top priority in January and they'll probably chase Frenkie again as the obvious target.

Lastly I will say I am very happy with Bruno. The way he is playing right now has been to his strengths and with Antony coming in now it should help him look even better. All things considered they are pretty good in the midfield now. Not ideal but hopefully good enough to be able to get through games where they're pressed hard.
 
Boondog said:
DM is good to go now. I look forward to seeing Case settle in for us there.

The problem is they don't have the ball carrier next to him for a possession approach. Ericksen's a pro and will do his best in that role in most matches for us, but he really is best used in Bruno's role as a table setter for the attack and this is why I have always seen him as competition and as flexible depth. I don't think he can hold up to the intensity EtH requires this team to play at and when he's in that role we have great passing from midfield but not the ball control. If nothing changes there by Thursday then I am sure that will be the top priority in January and they'll probably chase Frenkie again as the obvious target.

Lastly I will say I am very happy with Bruno. The way he is playing right now has been to his strengths and with Antony coming in now it should help him look even better. All things considered they are pretty good in the midfield now. Not ideal but hopefully good enough to be able to get through games where they're pressed hard.
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Yeah see us making do until January at least
 
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