A lot of our questions will be answered when we see how the manager sets out his team tomorrow.
Let’s talk DM
- Thread starter golden_blunder
- Start date
He might have a system in mind but not have the specialists to carry it off. Although I agree in a pre season game he may just play the way he expects to play since it doesn't matter
Yeah but Pep and Klopp usually play with a pretty conventional DM, albeit elite quality.
The reason people are scoffing at the thought of Eriksen and FDJ as a midfield two is because the prem is a fast, physical league and logic tells you those two don’t have the attributes to deal with it. But, as I say, I’m interested to see if ETH can defy logic, somehow, and I don’t rule out the possibility that he can.
We need to start bridging the gap. This is possibly the best midfield in the world.
Grealish and Foden aren't even midfielders.
And Madrid's midfield shits on that.
And Madrid's midfield shits on that.
If Bruno is a midfielder then so are they . Madrids is probably better with their recent additions.
Using two no.10s ahead of a holding midfielder is not a conventional way to set up a team, yet Guardiola completely dominated the league.
This idea that the league is distinctly fast and physical is an overplayed, outdated notion. The teams are not faster and more physical than the elite opponents in the examples I gave of ten Hag competing very well at the highest level with a less-than-combative midfield pairing.
I'm also not sure it's logical at all to say that de Jong and Eriksen can't handle the league. De Jong covers a lot of ground, and quickly. In terms of needing to be highly mobile, defend large spaces and direct play from an opponent, de Jong is much better equipped to manage than someone like Rodri.
Eriksen literally was able to deal with the league. Physically he excelled last season, i don't know if we will get that player or for how long as he didnt have as much running power late in his Spurs career, but what I can remember from his last season at Tottenham was the difference he made coming off the bench into a deeper centre midfield position with his passing and brain, in comparison to players like Winks. In fact, it's the potentially reduced capacity to put in the yards quite as much as his younger self which makes me think Ten Hag could have a deeper role in mind for him. And if I had to liken a potential de Jong - Eriksen pairing to another midfield two, one that come to mind is Carrick - Scholes. A no.6 and no.8, but two playmakers essentially. We managed to compete just fine with a double pivot lacking athleticism and steel.
That all sounds a bit desperate! Let’s just wait and see. If I’m wrong I’ll give up mars bars for a whole week.
Most of our opponents will sit back on us and hit on the counter. Right now we need more transition/attacking firepower in midfield so that we can finally start dispatching the bottom feeding clubs that have been taking splintery broomsticks to our arses the last few seasons. City and Liverpool will still shatter us without a proper DM, but at least we'll be able to beat the clubs we should be beating and give Spurs and Arsenal a proper match.
Unless of course someone can identify the ideal DM out there that's reasonably attainable right now.
Unless of course someone can identify the ideal DM out there that's reasonably attainable right now.
Yeah either Utd are struggling to find that CDM who fits the bill or more likely Erik isn't planning on playing with one with worries me a lot.
If we get de Jong I think we can confidently say we'll see a double pivot, but no-one can be sure about who will partner him. I'm only saying that a de Jong - Eriksen pairing can't be ruled out, based on conventional wisdom having us believe it lacks balance, given what ten Hag has achieved before. Of the seemingly possible options there, I would guess at ten Hag going with Eriksen, but I'm not going to be surprised or disappointed if you're not giving up mars bars for a week.
A top DM would be needed imo
Think a Fred - de Jong pairing is much more likely than Eriksen - de Jong.
Yeah, only way Eriksen plays in CM is in a midfield three
Think so too.
Perhaps I’m nitpicking but hear me out here. If EtH is retaining Maguire as captain surely he plays every match. And surely if Varane is fit he plays as well. This leaves Lindelof and Tuanzebe (who I think EtH will like) in reserve. Is it possible then that Martinez is being pursued for DM ?
We need to be careful that we don't get so fixated on this idea of a DM as a 'destroyer' that we don't forget they need to actually be able to play football.
It's one thing playing for a side like Brighton or Leicester and acting as a classic DM, but it's another being a 'DM' in a side like United, who will face teams who put 10-men behind the ball or will press really high in an attempt to force us into mistakes.
In either scenario, whomever we have in CM needs to be exceptional on the ball. This is why I think it's so hard to find someone to do that job. Personally, and I'll get stick from the Football Manager scouts here, I don't think the likes of Bissouma or Ndidi are good enough on the ball to do that role in an elite side.
It's one thing playing for a side like Brighton or Leicester and acting as a classic DM, but it's another being a 'DM' in a side like United, who will face teams who put 10-men behind the ball or will press really high in an attempt to force us into mistakes.
In either scenario, whomever we have in CM needs to be exceptional on the ball. This is why I think it's so hard to find someone to do that job. Personally, and I'll get stick from the Football Manager scouts here, I don't think the likes of Bissouma or Ndidi are good enough on the ball to do that role in an elite side.
I said this, also in relation to the point about his height, and was attacked for suggesting it.
Maguire will not be dropped. Despite what some of the real experts on here think, actual football managers rate him as a brilliant CB and as you point out, he is our captian.
Like you, I also think Varane will play if he's fit and we know that ETH is on record as recently as yesterday saying he wants to strengthen "the midfield and the offence".
Again, I said it over and over and over and over and over and over again last season.....our issues do not primarily stem from our defence. Our issues stem from total lack of shape and idea about how we want to defend as a team, lazy/confused forward players who can't/won't defend from the front and midfield players who are out-of-their depth in a side who are supposed to be competing for trophies.
There's not a CB on the planet who would have looked good in our defence last year - see three-times Champions League winner Varane and Swedish national team captain Lindelof for evidence of that (if you think the issue is just Maguire)
The priority will/should be to sort out the defensive structure of the team and improve the midfield. I think we'll find then we have few issues with the personnel at CB
I assume that Martinez is at least decent on the ball but I also recall a quote that he doesn't have the legs to play in midfield?
Not to keep banging this drum but we’ve had 5-6 years of Lindelof making the same individual mistakes. We can’t continually blame the midfield for the defenders personal shortfalls
Fans have obsessed over a destroyer since the Fergie years - it’s always been proper bonkers to me. FDJ, Eriksen, Mctominay, Fred, Garner, Bruno, DVB, Hannibal…if you can’t make a functioning midfield out of that then I’d give up. The most important thing is that the team as a whole presses and controls space in a coordinated manner. Fred/Mctominay get so much shit on here when the reality is they were constantly getting pulled out of position to cover for the utter ineptitude that was our front 4 off-the-ball and to make things even worse our defence would stay deep meaning when they pressed to cover you had huge gaps between the lines. I’ve never seen a team as shit off-the-ball as us last year - and that was a systemic issue not a Fred/Mctominay issue.
I wouldn't say Fabinho has exceptional technical / passing ability and yet he plays for one of the best sides in the world. His technique is alright, but his real strength is acting as a screen in front of the defence, positioning himself appropriately, dealing with threats on the counter etc.
Playmaking DMs like Busquets actively get in FdJ's way, we know that. I'd say we need an incremental upgrade over McFred and I don't think that skillset is very hard to find - someone like Hojbjerg or Herrera would be totally fine. Not pure destroyers like Ndidi but generally can fulfill a function in the side.
I also think you're really underestimating Bissouma's passing ability - he's miles better than pure DMs like Ndidi and would've been great for us.
I really hope we don't spend big money on this position and try to either coach our existing players or try to look for bargains.
No, it doesn't mean anything. He could be doing it for dressing room harmony as the players probably recommended him to remain as captain. That doesn't mean his place is secure. The manager is insisting that we spend 45M pounds on an unproven LCB. We all know who's England's and our LCB.
Martinez will be a reference point for how ETH wants to play and it will be up to the defenders to match or surpass him.
To be fair, it's a bit of both. The 2 are squad players at best. I'd argue that Park and Fletcher were superior to them, most certainly for their era.
DM CM whatever. The simple fact is we need two starting Midfielders so that Fred and McT are bench options
Anyone defending McFred need to look at that midfield. I don't know about Palmer, but they don't even get into that team.
We need to start bridging the gap. This is possibly the best midfield in the world.
Fletcher and Park played in functioning systems with clear roles. They weren’t thrown into CM and said you run so nobody else has to with the turnover machine that is bruno Fernandes.
Yesterday in training our attack lined up with a Fred/VDB midfield, with Fred being the deeper of the two (according to the Athletic).
If we signed FDJ and slotted him into that midfield, do people think it would be VDB rather than Fred who dropped out? Even with ETH's seeming preference for players he has worked with before (as suggested by our rumoured transfer targets at least)?
If we signed FDJ and slotted him into that midfield, do people think it would be VDB rather than Fred who dropped out? Even with ETH's seeming preference for players he has worked with before (as suggested by our rumoured transfer targets at least)?
McFred were at United before Bruno joined and were already underwhelming players in a counter-attacking system. I'd argue that they wouldn't fare better in a possession-based team where control and vision is required.
How McFred form as a duo is completely irrelevant to my point which is both are more than good enough defensively to partner FDJ and anyone using last season as a way to dismiss their defensive qualities are being ridiculous as they most certainly were not to blame - it was systemic hence why Ragnick became the third manager in a row to love “Scotty”.
I use McFred to save time typing both names out, and not to pair them as a duo.
FYI - Eriksen averaged more tackles and interceptions than McT last season. https://the18.com/en/soccer-entertainment/how-christian-eriksen-transformed-brentford
As an analogy based on the above article - What you’re saying is that you’d rather play Onyeka over Eriksen because Onyeka has slightly better defensive stats while ignoring that Eriksen is multiple times better when it comes to control and attacking. If De Jong joins, then he is our holding midfield player.
Last edited:
I think the appeal with Martinez is what he could provide in possession. Ten Hag would have seen enough from us last season to know that major change was needed building up play through the first two thirds of the pitch. Bringing in Martinez, de Jong and Eriksen, in combination with ten Hag training proper structure and spacing into the team, should bring about a transformation in that regard.
Ten Hag has tried Martinez in midfield and ultimately arrived at the conclusion that it wasn't the right position for him. Why would it be any different at United? Particularly with the pursuit of de Jong, who will be the deepest midfielder when he hopefully arrives here. If ten Hag really wants more steel in midfield, one of Fred or McTominay will likely partner de Jong, both of whom have had far too much asked of them with the way our front four set up defensively (as you mentioned).
Eriksen played in a midfield 3 with two more defensive players next to him. Eriksen have always been getting carried defensively cause he is extremely lightweight. Brentford played Janelt next to him and behind them Nørgaard. Janelt is a B2B/DM and Nørgaard is an old school destroyer with good passing, but limited mobility. Both have their strengths in the defensive work.
It was the same for Spurs. Dembele, Vanyama, Dier, Sissoko. They always had two midfielders next to Eriksen to carry the defensive load.
And again same for Denmark. Højbjerg and Delaney, both known for their defensive work and putting in a shift.
Eriksen plays deeper, but it doesn’t make him any less lightweight. He have never played in a midfield two and never played without two more defensive minded players in midfield.
I think people are a bit delusional if they think Eriksen can play in a midfield two on a consistent basis. Or that an Eriksen, Bruno and De Jong midfield will ever work.
Surely a midfield pair of Fred/De Jong won't work, especially if Fred plays as our deepest midfielder. We've all seen how badly Fred struggles when pressed around his own penalty area. His best role is in the opposition half winning the ball high up the pitch.
Does that mean we're expecting De Jong to play as our number 6? Or do we reckon it will be a midfield pair of Martinez/De Jong, with De Jong playing as an 8?
Does that mean we're expecting De Jong to play as our number 6? Or do we reckon it will be a midfield pair of Martinez/De Jong, with De Jong playing as an 8?
Sorry…I don’t what you’re now arguing against? I’ve quite literally said we shouldn’t sign a destroyer - Fred/Mctominay can add any defensive stability we feel necessary in some games and I’m fully aware De Jong will be the DM tasked with progressing the ball forward with Eriksen partnering him on occasion.
FYI - I have no idea where those defensive stats are from - they aren’t correct - any idea Eriksen is better than either Fred or Mctominay defensively is ludicrous. He didn’t average more tackles/interceptions per 90 than either Fred or Mctominay.
FBRef marks Fred as:
92nd percentile for pressures
83rd percentile for tackles
66th percentile for interceptions
91st percentile for blocks
FBRef marks Mctominay as:
37th percentile for pressures
69th percentile for tackles
70th percentile for interceptions
65th percentile for blocks
FBRef marks Eriksen as:
11th percentile for pressures
23rd percentile for tackles
7th percentile for interceptions
23rd percentile for blocks
I think a VdB- de Jong is much more likely than Eriksen - de Jong.
Think FdJ will play the role of dropping deep to collect the ball, so he replaces Fred.
Who was it laughed at me when I said ETH would use someone else in training for the FDJ role?
kimmich and goreztka
busquet,xavi and iniesta
Rodri,de bruyne and bernando silva
this are midfields that dominated Europe without a destroyer.
It's all about retaining and being efficient in possession and working as a single defensive unit out of possession.
All you need is a creative and progressive anchor "6" (kimmich,rodri and busquet) and a bulldozer of a "8" who's dominant and good at everything (goreztka,silva,modric,kessie).
Mctominay is very capable of playing next to de jong when coached properly.
Tchouameni would have been the dream,but ....
So it's Bellingham or rice next season
busquet,xavi and iniesta
Rodri,de bruyne and bernando silva
this are midfields that dominated Europe without a destroyer.
It's all about retaining and being efficient in possession and working as a single defensive unit out of possession.
All you need is a creative and progressive anchor "6" (kimmich,rodri and busquet) and a bulldozer of a "8" who's dominant and good at everything (goreztka,silva,modric,kessie).
Mctominay is very capable of playing next to de jong when coached properly.
Tchouameni would have been the dream,but ....
So it's Bellingham or rice next season
Yeah, fair enough. I kinda should give up the mars bars so I’m half rooting for FDJ Eriksen to succeed. (Will either of them even actually sign for us?!?)
Bailly.