Let’s talk DM

golden_blunder

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Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
 
Who even knows at this point. I’m trying to stay out of our transfer business, at least until the season starts. If we sign someone before then I’m sure I’ll hear about it.
 
Isn't De Jong at his best at the DM position? I thought Ten Hag used him there in that great Ajax CL campaign.

He's not a Casemiro type DM though if that's what you mean. He's more of a Carrick.
 
De Jong and Eriksen won't work, even Kroos and Modric didn't work great till they had Casemiro behind covering for them.
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

That's pretty much how I think Ten Hag see it too if things come to pass. The unknown is if (as seems entirely plausible in my view) De Jong doesn't happen.
 
VorZakone said:
Isn't De Jong at his best at the DM position? I thought Ten Hag used him there in that great Ajax CL campaign.

He's not a Casemiro type DM though if that's what you mean. He's more of a Carrick.
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Yes i should be more specific. He’s not going to play a player to just go round tackling everyone. He wants more than that.
 
Idxomer said:
De Jong and Eriksen won't work, even Kross and Modric didn't work great till they had Casemiro behind covering for them.
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Agreed. Think we need de Jong plus a solid DM who can cover a lot of ground and stop us getting counter attacked on.
 
Is Parades a DM? Looks like we might be relying on his Ajax trick of getting players on the cheap to a level nobody thought they could reach to start his Utd career.
This is us now. Free transfers from Brentford and a young LB from Feyenoord. Maybe it’s needed and a good thing and might be what the bloated club needs but it’s not going to be easy for Ten Hag.
 
VorZakone said:
Isn't De Jong at his best at the DM position? I thought Ten Hag used him there in that great Ajax CL campaign.

He's not a Casemiro type DM though if that's what you mean. He's more of a Carrick.
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ETH has explicitly said that FdJ cannot play as a DM multiple times. This he is clear on, he does not see De Jong as a DM.

I worry though now that Barcelona and De Jong are both making noises that De Jong will not move. We are therefore seeing rumours arise around other players like Paredes and Sangare.

I would actually kind of prefer Paredes/Sangare over De Jong at this stage because I think it would offer more balance to our team. If we need a ball carrying CM (which is what De Jong essentially is, that is his strongest attribute) then lets go all out for Tielemans who is available at a fraction of the price of De Jong (both in fee and wages).

Midfield 3 of Paredes/Sangare + Tielemans + Eriksen looks pretty strong to me.


(also don't be surprised to see Bruno play as a false 9 this season if Ronaldo goes)
 
ThanksBoss26 said:
That's pretty much how I think Ten Hag see it too if things come to pass. The unknown is if (as seems entirely plausible in my view) De Jong doesn't happen.
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Agreed. I can see that’s why he’s pushing so hard to get it done. If not, I assume he will look for someone who could carry out the same instructions
 
That won’t work. Even if we get De Jong, which I don’t think will happen. EtH will want a holding player to anchor midfield same as Klopp and Pep do.
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
Click to expand...
I see it completely the same way. The media are underrating the Eriksen signing partly because they assume he will be a Lingard/Mata replacement and a backup option to Fernandes. His impact will be far greater than that. We are signing him to be our Scholes.
 
BaillyBaillyBailly said:
ETH has explicitly said that FdJ cannot play as a DM multiple times. This he is clear on, he does not see De Jong as a DM.

I worry though now that Barcelona and De Jong are both making noises that De Jong will not move. We are therefore seeing rumours arise around other players like Paredes and Sangare.

I would actually kind of prefer Paredes/Sangare over De Jong at this stage because I think it would offer more balance to our team. If we need a ball carrying CM (which is what De Jong essentially is, that is his strongest attribute) then lets go all out for Tielemans who is available at a fraction of the price of De Jong (both in fee and wages).

Midfield 3 of Paredes/Sangare + Tielemans + Eriksen looks pretty strong to me.


(also don't be surprised to see Bruno play as a false 9 this season if Ronaldo goes)
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Tielemans is absolutely not an upgrade on Fred. Getting him would be pointless.
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

More likely Van De Beek than Eriksen
 
I guess an easy way to gain insight into what he might do is look at ETH's previous teams, particularly those where FDJ was involved.

Which midfield partnerships has he used? And how many of them didn't involve that more defensive player? If it's the norm for him then sure, it may well be that it's the plan here.
 
We don't need a DM as much, we need a pivot to get the ball off our CBs. Someone confident on the turn, who can play through the middle and dictate the game for us.
 
Good luck to the back four if it's FDJ and Eriksen in a two, presumably with bruno ahead of them
 
golden_blunder said:
History of his teams say otherwise
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sullydnl said:
I guess an easy way to gain insight into what he might do is look at ETH's previous teams, particularly those where FDJ was involved.

Which midfield partnerships has he used? And how many of them didn't involve that more defensive player? If it's the norm for him then sure, it may well be that it's the plan here.
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He used Schöne and then Álvarez as defensive midfielders at Ajax. Also gave stints to Beek and Martinez. The fact that he played Donny deeper than FdJ when Schöne was injured suggests De Jong is not an option at the base of midfield in his system. Not that I think it will matter in the end, mind. But whether we land him or not we are still in desperate need of a DM.
 
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This is the first season since I can remember that we don't have a single specialist DM in the squad, and we're not seeing a single link to any on the market. Truly baffling.

I think the club is waiting for Rice next summer but that's just not a good enough excuse to go into yet another season with McFred and risk more spankings from City, Pool and fecking Brighton.
 
EtH said:
He used Schöne and then Álvarez as defensive midfielders at Ajax.
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Have you watched Schone there? I have, he’s as likely to pop up in the opposition edge of box as he is Ajax’s box. Hence why I said the 3rd player would be someone capable of going either way.

Alvarez you may have a point but I haven’t paid much attention to him to be honest

time will tell, the thread is just how I see the fact we’re not being linked to any DMs
 
golden_blunder said:
Have you watched Schone there? I have, he’s as likely to pop up in the opposition edge of box as he is Ajax’s box. Hence why I said the 3rd player would be someone capable of going either way.

Alvarez you may have a point but I haven’t paid much attention to him to be honest

time will tell, the thread is just how I see the fact we’re not being linked to any DMs
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It’s a fair question to raise and you do have a point about Schöne. I find it baffling that we haven’t been linked with any DM targets as well.
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

Small point. Eriksen doesn’t play on the right does he?

CM or LM
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

Yeah I‘m not sure a DM is on the cards, personally I think Shaw will just be given the role of Timber and will be playing in an area between Fullback and Midfield. Kinda similar to how he was deployed post Covid break. Like Delph and what’s his face did for City. Then the back 4 either becomes a 3 or the other fullback tucks in also or is pushed forward leaving 2 at the back.

Part of the excitement of new season and a new manager, wondering what and how he is going to implement his ideas.
 
I don't think it's a case of him not requiring one it's just that we've decided McTominay/Fred/Garner will do that role for now.

It's a mistake (yet again) but oh well.
 
A position we've needed to strengthen for years, and now we've just lost Matic and we still haven't signed a DM or even been rumoured to be interested in one. I don't understand the decision making of this club
 
AndySmith1990 said:
A position we've needed to strengthen for years, and now we've just lost Matic and we still haven't signed a DM or even been rumoured to be interested in one. I don't understand the decision making of this club
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They genuinely overrate McTominay and are convinced he can do the job there I think. Never mind the concrete evidence from last season that he can't, Ten Hag will wave his magic wand and turn him into Fernandinho.
 
The question is do you need a pure DM or can a DLP be equally effective?

See Carrick or Alonso.

I think the need for a pure DM disappears if you have good CBs that can step out with the ball and a good quality DLP.

That would explain Martinez, Eriksen and FDJ. It would also explain the continued pursuit of Frenkie and reports that he’s vital to the system EtH is planning around.
 
I think we will see a clue in a few days in the pre season games. We might still be missing the specialists of course.

He has played with a target man & a false 9, he has played with a very deep CM play maker & with a pure holder. On the wings he has had touch line huggers and wide play makers. In the 10 he has had Donny who was a lampard style late runner and berghuis who was more of a playmaker but maybe similar. He had tagliofico who is a wide attacking wing back and swapped him for Blind when FDJ left the team as maybe they need more playmaking presence.

He has been so flexible even with the two ajax teams he has built so far. It is very hard to call. I personally think he would have played Ronaldo is whatever he thinks Ronaldos best position is, my guess was in a left wing free role, and built the rest of the team to accomodate that. Back to the drawing board is Ronaldo is on the way out
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
Click to expand...

I agree with everything, but not that last bit about Eriksen. If he did not think Martinez/Blind has the legs for midfield, he will not think Eriksen have it either.

I think EtH is desperate for players that can help him implement his type of play quickly. Eriksen is a player like that. And he is easy available. But I really think we will use him where he has been used always.

Fred, McTominay, Garner and Donny might not be great players. But I think all of them would look a lot better next to Frenkie de Jong than they have next to eachother. And I would be surprised if he could not work with one of them. It is not like all the midfielders he has used so far at Ajax is huge talents.

If we managed to sign the players EtH wants I would have expected us to play a 4231 with two new players in defence (Malacia/Martinez), Frenkie and Donny in midfield and Eriksen (AMC) and Antony (RW) in attack. I do not think Donny is a long term solution in midfield, but I do think he could be a «quick fix» for the first few months.

(I also think a player like Garner is quite similar to a few of the Ajax-players EtH have used. Would not be surprised to see him stake a claim for a spot during this season.
 
the closest to CM Eriksen has ever played is the most advanced in a midfield three. I don't recall him ever playing in a two and he's not that sort of player?

I agree we don't need a pure DM next to FDJ but I do think we need someone who is pretty solid defensively
 
golden_blunder said:
Many fans still expecting a DM signing, you can see this in many transfer posts saying stuff like “still need to sign a DM” or “we could have had player X for DM but he joined..”

my interpretation of it is that I don't believe that we are even looking for a DM. We haven’t really been linked to any in a serious way, apart from a few early journalists punts when they had nothing to go on.

if Martinez signs I think it will be as a CB not DM. He’s already said that he doesn’t have the legs to play there in Holland never mind the PL.

i don’t think ETH intends to play with one as they will limit the play. He wants a midfield that is capable of holding the ball or playing quick incisive progressive play.

i strongly believe that his plan A is to have a pairing of DeJong - Eriksen

then possibly a 3rd number 8 type capable of going both ways

People think Eriksen will play 10 or RW, I don’t. I think he will play deep like scholes and use his brilliant range of passing with DeJong carrying the ball where possible to progress play.

Opinions?
Click to expand...
I agree, we won't be buying a 'defensive minded' DM if De Jong is signed. I'd assume the idea is to impose a possession style on the team with De Jong and Eriksen as the first choice double pivot but Fred and McTominay will also be reguarly used. Those 4 plus Bruno and VDB and the further back up option of Martinez is decent of options.
 
If we get no one in it's a midifeld of Mcfred and Bruno with Donny and garner as the main subs. That is fecking dreadful.

With De Jong and Eriksen we improve our quality and depth by a lot.

6- De Jong, Garner,
8- Fred, Mctom, Donny
10- Bruno, Eriksen

Some of those can play mulitple roles in the midfield but we are still a little short. Do we need a dm?

Not necessarily but we do need more quality in midfield even IF we sign De Jong and Eriksen
 
I think he's planning on Fred as the most defensive midfielder, alongside De Jong when Bruno is playing the no. 10 role or with Eriksen and De Jong ahead of him when Bruno is on the bench or the wing.

I'm happy enough with that personally. Fred is a good player. He's in the Brazil first 11 for a reason and if he was part of a functioning team I think he'd be widely regarded as one of the best in his position, but he's been exposed so many times because he had to do the work of an entire midfield himself.

If De Jong falls through and we get Tielemans instead, I'd be even happier. Would give us better balance and better value for money in my opinion. Always saw him as someone who could step up.
 
The problem is not so much the lack of a DM as it is the lack of a midfielder with composure, positional sense and a broad passing range. Anybody with a tiny bit of composure, positional sense and a broad passing range is an upgrade over Mcfred. They don't have to be a superstar. Paredes would be an upgrade if we can get him. So would Neves. But it has to be two central midfield players signed not one. Neither Fred nor Mctominay should be first choice midfielders for the club if we want to do anything worthwhile. The argument can be made that neither should eveb be playing for the club.
 
Yeah, well, I disagree with this approach. Eredivise isn't the PL. There is a reason City, Chelsea and Liverpool play with a DM. More to the point, if we intend to keep playing with De Gea all the more reason we need a DM or our back four will get battered.

"Attack wins you matches, defense wins you titles" is what a great man once said. And we don't have a single defense-minded midfielder, forget about an actual DM. One is mandatory in my opinion and not going for a DM once again will be a mistake.
 
Looking at the players we seem to be targeting I have a strong inclination that we will play 3-4-3 (or variation of). Martinez seems perfect for stepping up to make a 3 man midfield. It would then give De Jong and Eriksen the chance to play deep together and pull the strings.
 
FDJ (won't come) and Eriksen as a midfield would be an absolute disaster off the ball. We'd be sliced up at will, leaving our incompetent defense absolutely unprotected. We'd be Bielsa's leeds level of open. City and Liverpool will score for fun against us, even more so than they did last season.
We'd have to play 5 at the back and I still wouldn't trust us keeping it tight. Chelsea, for example, can play Jorginho and Kovacic as a midfield two but Kovacic is much more mobile and box to box than Eriksen.
 
There's no way ten Hag in his right mind could field a pivot of De Jong and Eriksen. He already clearly stated that De Jong as a 6 is a wanderer, and needs that freedom to do so, otherwise you won't get the same player. Therefore, having a player like Eriksen next to him just won't work, in my opinion.

If you look at Schone - the player De Jong was paired next to at Ajax, he was a box to box midfield, with good defensive attributes. The closest players we have who fit that description is Fred and McTominay, who I believe will be the two players who pair up with De Jong.

Regarding Eriksen, I believe he will play as a wide playmaker like he did at Spurs, with Bruno making those runs in behind like Dele Alli used to be so good at.

Martial/Striker (Complete Forward)
Sancho/Rashford (Inside Forward) - Bruno/Van de Beek (Second Striker) - Eriksen/Sancho (Wide Playmaker)
De Jong/Garner (Deep-Lying Playmaker) - McTominay/Fred (Box to box)
Shaw/Malacia (Inverted Full Back) Martinez/Maguire (Centre Back) - Varane/Lindelof (Centre Back) - Wan-Bissaka/Dalot (Full Back)
De Gea/Strakosha (Goalkeeper)​

I think we will need to be looking into that area maybe next season, but for now, I believe Fred and McTominay next to a ball playing midfielder like De Jong will flourish.
 
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