Is the Rangers LB any good ? 
Leighton Baines
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss Amad saving our blushes in a win against Southampton as well as our now annual loss at home to Brighton. They discuss Amorim's post-match comments, revisit how mid-table we may or may not be, and discuss some transfer news.
It's because English players cost so much in comparison to foreigners. If Ashley Young cost £10m or under then we'd all be happy as Larry. Because he was £18m people are saying he's a bad signing.
Think it's either being foreign, or being young - people have been drooling over Rodwell and Barkley for years - and sure both are highly rated youngsters, but the way some Utd fans used to go on about Rodwell you'd think he was the second coming, as it is he's not exactly set Goodison alight yet.
Baines would be a good signing, like it or not Evra isn't the player he was (and I love Paddy) and Fabio isn't ready (and is not out on loan). Getting Baines would actually challenge Evra for the first time in years, would cover us against injuries, and would allow some rotation at LB. My only concern is the price - there's no way in hell Baines is worth the £15m that keeps being mentioned.
If Cleverly had played his 10 matches for Valencia, and was called Cleverlito or something, would he be considered the super-star talent he already is here?
Anyone with half a brain would not consider Cleverley a super star talent based on his 5 appearances last season, to be fair.
But that's the point, he has been, and the same thing happens regardless of the name of a player.
Surely there's a difference when the player is already here? Pretty much every youngster ever at this club has been labelled a super star by some gimps as soon as he's had a few good games.
if Cleverley did that at another PL club I doubt anyone would be saying such things.
EDIT: Not disagreeing with you by the way, I do think the whole foreigner thing is bullshit, just that Cleverley wasn't a great example.
if Cleverley did that at another PL club I doubt anyone would be saying such things.
EDIT: Not disagreeing with you by the way, I do think the whole foreigner thing is bullshit, just that Cleverley wasn't a great example.
Is the Rangers LB any good ?
Celtic has a very good left back. However, he spent last season nursing an injury.
I suppose there will always be an increased hype once they are here, I'm not sure talents in the past have really been hyped up like Cleverly has, for someone has been seen so little, the comments about him at times have been hilarious, like the anger at him not featuring at the Euro's for instance. Maybe it wasn't the greatest example, but I really don't see this idea that a person's worth or hype is relative to their name. We've had so many examples of relatively unknown English players who have been hyped as incredible talents over the past few years.
Is he going to be the best left back on the planet or even in the running for it if we sign him? Nope, I wouldn't of thought so. There are a few left backs in the world who are younger with more potential definitely.
But if we could get him for less than 10 million there are plenty of reasons why it would be a good deal. First of all Irish Red, Baines got tore apart by downing, Evra has been torn apart by Lennon (a few times). Can't judge Evra as a player on those performances especially as he's improved massively against him recently so why would you for Baines?
Finneh of course he could improve massively playing with our players, our movement is better and we are more clinical, so even if he didn't improve his stats would look much better playing for us. And talking about consistency, he has been considerably better than Evra over the last few seasons. Evra has achieved an almost cult following hear but his defending is atrocious at times.
In 2010/2011 Baines got 7 goals and 19 assists in all competitions. Yes stats can be misleading, for example Downing created the most goal scoring chances or Downing had zero assists depending on who you support. But at the end of the day Evra has had very little end product for a few seasons now and would kill for stats like that. And 19 assists is a hell of a lot for anyone and has got to show he's more than just a 'solid' player surely?
So why not go for a younger inexperienced player? Simply because they make to many mistakes and we already have smalling, jones, rafael and De Gea who are 21 or under and will get plenty of playing time. Part of the reason that Evra has played this much is because Fergie doesnt like playing two young full backs at the same time. Carling cup yes, league games not so much. Getting another youngster in might not be the best thing for us at the moment. Its got to be one of the reasons that Fabio has been loaned out for a bit, more experience etc.
The big thing here is that while Evra is still recognised as one of the leading full backs in the world and he can be truly brilliant on his day and Baines is playing for a mid table team who is seen as 'solid' and can be truly awful on his day. I don't think there is much argument that if someone were to watch both of them consistently over the last few seasons that Baines has been better defensively and offensively.
That is why the transfer could make sense. Evra still has a higher ceiling but Baines fulfills his more often recently and is hitting his peak now.
Yes because Evra spends almost all his time defending doesn't he.
Well that's about half of the 'caf then
Exactly.
100% condescending bullshit. Ashley Young and Baines are deemed mediocre or just decent-good by many because they are in fact just that. Charlie Adams' was the same but to a much larger degree (a big fish who looked very good in a smaller pond).
Exactly. Wilshere and the Ox have been hyped up because they look very talented. Likewise Welbeck... He didn't have to be called Dani and be Brazilian to get the plaudits.
Of course that's a big factor, if we signed Young on a free on £20k a week he'd be a great signing. The fact is if you buy someone on a £45-50m package you expect more than just a decent or good squad player. The same with any purchase, without a cost-benefit analysis you end up with Andy Carroll being a decent signing.
To be perfectly honest I think our biggest problem is our first XI, not our squad. Our squad is arguably the best in the league, whereas our first XI is definitely not. This is why I'm against the notion of signing more squad players, which will clearly not improve our first team.
I agree that with the likes of Hernandez, Smalling, Jones, De Gea, Rafael, Fabio, Welbeck we have plenty of young players with potential and I also agree that if we're buying a LB we need an experienced one. Where I disagree is that I feel we should be aiming a lot higher than Baines... We may as well have bought Jose Enrique for £6m last season if established Premier league full back was our only criterion
/edit: I'd also argue the counter for saying he would be much better with better players around him; Isn't there a possibility that he currently only stands out because of the mediocre players around him (as I feel is/was the case with Young)?
I reckon he'll be a good signing if he comes.
The same arguments are trotted out time and time again when we're linked with a player like this (i.e not an established world class player).... not better than what we have, not good enough, too expensive, too old...... we had people complaining that Carrick wasn't worth 18million, Valencia wasn't worth 16million, all have been proven to be wrong.
No fee has been agreed so I'm not sure how people can say he's too expensive. At 28 he's the perfect age profile for the position in our squad, younger than Evra yet with plenty of experience, older than Fabio. Like Young he's at a stage in his career where he needs to take a step up, realistically start challenging for an England spot and playing in Europe.
The same arguments are trotted out time and time again when we're linked with a player like this (i.e not an established world class player).... not better than what we have, not good enough, too expensive, too old...... we had people complaining that Carrick wasn't worth 18million, Valencia wasn't worth 16million, all have been proven to be wrong.
No fee has been agreed so I'm not sure how people can say he's too expensive. At 28 he's the perfect age profile for the position in our squad, younger than Evra yet with plenty of experience, older than Fabio. Like Young he's at a stage in his career where he needs to take a step up, realistically start challenging for an England spot and playing in Europe.
I don't really get the comparisons with Young anyway. If anything £15m for Baines would be better value because he hasn't only got a year left on his contract. We're also far more in need of a left back than we were of a winger when we signed Young.
Ashley Young and Leighton Baines aren't mediocre players at all though, they're very good players both of them, a fact I've no doubt they'll continue to prove next season and the season after that and the season after that. It's laughable to suggest they're mediocre; what are you basing such an opinion on?
Baines has been one of the most productive players in a decent Everton side for two seasons running, he's the most productive fullback in the Premier League. Ashley Young's just come off the back of good first season at the world's biggest club, and his record previous to joining United cannot be questioned. Yet these players are labeled as being mediocre? Why? How can any self respecting football fan make such a fundamental error of judgement as to label the above pair of players as being mediocre?
I'm not sure why he was brought into this but Young is a more talented player than Baines....
the thing to remember is that Young is a squad player at United - he's not in the same class as Nani/Valencia
with Evra in decline we need to be looking for his long term replacement - the reality is that Evra was one of the top left full backs in world football about 18 months ago
he's still in the top 10 for me and a better player for me than Baines (defensively and offensively)
why on earth would we spend all that money on someone who is not as good as Evra and is most likely going to be a squad player
I think Evra needs a rest now and again and we might see an improvement in his form/concentration
I also think if we revert more to a 4-3-3 we will have more protection for the defence and Evra will have more license to get forward
Baines would be a decent addition as a squad player for 7/8 million but 15? no way
the thing to remember is that Young is a squad player at United - he's not in the same class as Nani/Valencia
with Evra in decline we need to be looking for his long term replacement - the reality is that Evra was one of the top left full backs in world football about 18 months ago
he's still in the top 10 for me and a better player for me than Baines (defensively and offensively)
why on earth would we spend all that money on someone who is not as good as Evra and is most likely going to be a squad player
I think Evra needs a rest now and again and we might see an improvement in his form/concentration
I also think if we revert more to a 4-3-3 we will have more protection for the defence and Evra will have more license to get forward
Baines would be a decent addition as a squad player for 7/8 million but 15? no way
They aren't mediocre but they're in a decent-good bracket that he has mentioned. When you have had Evra, one of the best full backs in the world at his best, in the team for six years and have a young promising Brazilian on the fringes you don't have to be excited by the prospect of signing a good full back for £15m. Same goes for Young, we had Nani and Valencia in our first team at the time so people were obviously not very keen on an £18m (price quoted around the time of transfer, I'm still not sure how much we paid in the end but definitely around £16m) winger who was clearly not better than either of them and long distance behind wingers we have had in the past like Beckham, Giggs and Ronaldo.
I'm pretty sure a £15m fee would put him in top 5 most expensive full backs ever, I can only recall Coentrao and Alves as more expensive and Bosingwa and Kolarov in the same price range.
Nail on the head.
Liverpool paid about 20million for Glen Johnson.
Indeed, £18.5m I think. And everyone ridiculed them for doing so, Baines is about the same level realistically.
Besides, in a mirror situation we were linked with Gaitan earlier this year and people were even less excited than at the time of Ashley Young transfer - for the same reasons, such as we're well stocked in that department for the first team and quoted fees were too high for someone that'd likely only be a back-up/squad rotation player.
He was Argentinian and played for Benfica.
He was Argentinian and played for Benfica.
Pretty much. If we had the resources of City and we were purchasing Baines for £15m+ it would be fine. However we don't and paying that amount on someone who isn't likely to go straight into the first team at his age is a bit over the top. Even if he was to go into the first team in 2 years he will most likely need replacing himself 2 years later.
The Gaitan comparison earlier on is similar justifable. A player not worth the amount we were paying for.
Carrick and Valencia are different because they walked right into the first team.
People get far too hung up on transfer fees and wages.
Let Fergie and the money men worry about that stuff.
Let Fergie and the money men worry about that stuff.
I'd wager that if we signed Baines he'd go straight into the first team. He'd replace Evra with immediate effect.
Woa woa woa, what are we basing that on?
Baines has been a permanent fixture in the Everton side for the past 4 years, playing almost every game for them (161). He's played a total of 360 odd games in his professional career.
Johnson before his transfer to Liverpool had played far fewer games (194) and was playing for Portsmouth who were relegated and broke.
You know I don't mean mediocre at Football in general... Obviously as professional Premier League Footballers both have to be exceptional at the game. The fact is though they are mediocre when looking at the top echelons of world Football.
They are both players who look(ed) very good at mid-table teams and will/would probably be decent squad signings for us. It remains however that we should be looking at a higher calibre of player, as I said I would be equally baffled if we were linked with say, Darren Bent, who is also not mediocre by your definition, but is by mine.
Exactly... It is bizarre how other teams transfer dealings are mocked, but when we do something similar it is widely deemed either a success or a potential success.
Baines is in the same bracket as players such as Downing, Johnson and Enrique, players who stood out in mid table teams, yet somehow because we are linked with him suddenly it's harsh to suggest he is a Liverpool level signing, not a Manchester United one. And yes, I would be equally underwhelmed if we were linked with those 3 players.
I thought the latest news was that we weren't interested in Baines?
Agreed.... and we can always live in hope.
I just don't like him that much, but he wouldn't be the worst purchase given his age, and he'd replace Evra fairly easily. The good thing from it would be the stability down the side, without a threat to Fabio's future there, and at the same time we won't have to deal with inexperience or someone who needs time to adapt to the Premiership. Ultimately, it does make sense, I just have something against Baines that probably isn't all that rational. I think he's clearly not a rubbish player, at all, but a part of me just wishes we'd go for someone a bit better, in case Fabiod doesn't materialize into the player I hope, and we are in the same position in a few years time.
So what would people prefer.
a proven english player who has played well in the premier league for several years, and know he would get the job done, and be a very good back up / cover / starter for a few years, but cost around £15-18m.
Or a young foreign player who has only had a small amount of experience in a different league, but will be cheaper and possibly have more potential (jetro willems for example).
I personally think Baines is the right choice.
Yes he is no world beater, but he is a solid left back who offers a very decent attacking threat, and his set pieces / penalties will also help the cause.
Were Bayern Munich not linked with him 2 years back? he only didnt go because he didnt want to leave England. If they think he is good enough, should we perhaps revalue our opinion?.
Who else is really out there that would be good enough? do we just not sign anybody now if we dont think they are up to Evras standard?.
a proven english player who has played well in the premier league for several years, and know he would get the job done, and be a very good back up / cover / starter for a few years, but cost around £15-18m.
Or a young foreign player who has only had a small amount of experience in a different league, but will be cheaper and possibly have more potential (jetro willems for example).
I personally think Baines is the right choice.
Yes he is no world beater, but he is a solid left back who offers a very decent attacking threat, and his set pieces / penalties will also help the cause.
Were Bayern Munich not linked with him 2 years back? he only didnt go because he didnt want to leave England. If they think he is good enough, should we perhaps revalue our opinion?.
Who else is really out there that would be good enough? do we just not sign anybody now if we dont think they are up to Evras standard?.
See that comes down to whose available and fits the criteria we need Hectic.
I'd imagine we'd have taken Alba in a heartbeat, but he chose Barca.
I'd imagine we'd have taken Alba in a heartbeat, but he chose Barca.
Baines is a very good left back. For my money should be England's first choice. Has a better end product than Evra, even
Yep, Baines every time for me, I think he's ideal for United.
As for Ashley Young, from what I've seen of him in a United shirt I'd say that all you perennial pessimists will have a pleasant but somewhat embarrassing surprise once he gets a decent run off games free from injury.
Whatever about Baines attacking contributions ask any Everton fan about his defensive abilities. This seems to be overlooked by so many. He'll never be a natural defender, much like Evra.
And yet we've done alright with Evra all these years.
Baines is a capable defensive left-back with excellent attacking ability; with a talented winger in front of him such as Young or Nani he'd be devastating going forward. Having two excellent crossers of the ball on one wing is something United have missed for a good few seasons now; double up on Nani and he'll just lay it off to Baines who can put just as good a cross into the box.
Seeing as we signed Evra from Ligue 1 for £6m and he's been excellent for us without being PL proven in the first place, I'd say it's well worth to take a look outside England and try to find someone cheaper for a back-up role.
I have to admit though that I think Evra is still good enough to be a first team player for us and I also think Fabio will develop into a great left back, so we'd be virtually paying £18m for a season or two in which we might need Baines as a back-up/rotation player. With a limited budget and a need for two midfielders as well.
And even if Baines is currently better than Evra the difference is slight. We have a huge gap in midfield that needs filling. Given the choice of watching Evra play for us next season with one or two new midfielders and buying Baines and seeing Park and Giggs used in the middle of the park again it's a no brainer for me.
We wouldn't be signing him as a back-up.