I've seen people use Mahrez as a comparison, so I'm glad we've moved past that 
Lamine Yamal
- Thread starter Hoof the ball
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) are here to discuss three 1-1 draws.
The first got us knocked out of the FA Cup, the next puts us in a good position in our Round of 16 Europa League game, and the latest was an actual decent performance against Arsenal at Old Trafford.
All hopes for the season now rest on the Europa League - does Amorim have the squad to win it?
Yamal is a great player for his age. Too early too compared him to the greats of the game. Trying to rank players against achievement other between generations is also highly subjective due to changes to the game from pitches, to sports science to physical requirements. Essentially the game develops every 10-20 years in a way that means things start becoming apples and oranges when trying to compare.
He is not „great for his age“. He is great.
Just playing devils advocate, what if it was the other way around?
Those 3 allowed Messi to do his business. They proved it on the international stage.
Can midfielders be GOATS?
Watched a goal of his last week where he moves past the keeper and holds off a defender, tapping it in the net not much later.
My first thought was great pass, but kinda boring everyday goal.
But then watched again, and the way he used his first touch to pass by the keeper, a little in the direction of the defender, but not too much so he could immediately use his body to get in between the ball and him shows such a high level of intuition, of confidence in ability and (if distinct from that instinct) vision. How such a simple goal can show such a high level of class once you start looking.
You see goals go in via the bar, curl into the top corner, from long distances, but not sure if I've seen all these things Yamal showed with during basically a single touch. Maybe I don't watch enough football, but I thought it was amazing. Let's watch that again.
I wonder if he had more of those moments that I missed already, and if someone else did something similar that are easily taken for granted with a specific players. Makes me remember how scoring 30 goals meant a bad season for Messi and Ronaldo.
My first thought was great pass, but kinda boring everyday goal.
But then watched again, and the way he used his first touch to pass by the keeper, a little in the direction of the defender, but not too much so he could immediately use his body to get in between the ball and him shows such a high level of intuition, of confidence in ability and (if distinct from that instinct) vision. How such a simple goal can show such a high level of class once you start looking.
You see goals go in via the bar, curl into the top corner, from long distances, but not sure if I've seen all these things Yamal showed with during basically a single touch. Maybe I don't watch enough football, but I thought it was amazing. Let's watch that again.
I wonder if he had more of those moments that I missed already, and if someone else did something similar that are easily taken for granted with a specific players. Makes me remember how scoring 30 goals meant a bad season for Messi and Ronaldo.
The thing is though, whilst you can make that argument, the reality suggested otherwise.
Spain tried to replicate Barcelona's playstyle with use of Messi as a false 9 but with loads of different options. Fabregas as false 9, Villa as false 9, Iniesta as false 9, Torres as false 9, all these options were tried. What ended up happening was some really turgid, boring, dogshite football, where Busquets and Xavi controlled the midfield, but there was no cutting edge up top. Iniesta was far less effective playing from the left than he did at Barca/playing through the middle and no Messi as a false 9 really really hindered Spain's efficacy.
I did a really long post highlighting the decrease in performance with Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets without Messi compared to with Messi, in the Newbs. If a mod wants to dig that out and repost it here, that would be great, but I can't be arsed doing all the research again with heatmaps, positional plays etc.
Tl;dr that midfield trio was far less effective without Messi than it was with Messi.
The GOAT stuff it's very very silly and I will say it 4000 times if necessary...
The thing with GOAT it's the term itself, Greatest of ALL TIME...do you realize that this means and randonmly naming being clearly "better" on individual basis (not trophies obtained) than: Falcao, Kaka, Socrates, Laudrup, Overath, The Kaiser, Charlton, Di Stefano, Gullit, Rikjaard, Redondo, Lothar, Sarosi, Baggio, Didi, Labruna, etc etc etc even more old farts like Monti, Andrade and so on. Do you realize that even a couple of years before Pep in Barca fellas like Deco, Ronaldinho and cia made very difficult for Xavi and Iniesta to actually be starters and that for Rikjaard that version of those days from Xavi, wasn't precisly his cup of tea and Rikjaard knows a thing or two about the midfield role even if he could have used them more and Van Gall used them better.
So regarding "the other way around", what would have happen if Xavi actually left Barca prior to Pep's period? he was really really fecking close. The scenario as talented as he was, in ending in a great Valeron or De La Peña if he went to a lesser club, was more possible than actually ending winning everything that he won in Barca and be named by some the best midfielder ever (sthg that as much as I like him, it's too much, even in comparison with his fellow spanniard maestro Luis Suarez).
Many times being from the house, being from the country of the League (all around the world, not only in Spain and maybe even more in Barca if the player in question is Catalan) helps to not be shown the boot to a way lesser team when you are not entirely clicking, it happened even with the extraordinary Pirlo.
So there is quite a big element of being from the house that helped not few players around the world to keep a float their carrers in their higher echelon (no matter how talented they were and in some bad cases with no talent like Oleguer). If you arrive as the new Turk sensation in teams like Man Utd, Barca, Real, Inter, Milan you better do it fast and big to keep your boat afloat to later actually do it grand.
BTW Xavi and Busquets (this lad even more in my opinion in terms of his game, not his leadership) are the ones that are trully Barca boys, not even Iniesta is a true Barca boy in his style and atributes.
Messi and Iniesta have other atributes and capabilities that can give them more tools to adapt to diff coaches and scenarios than the other two brilliant mofos. I have a very soft spot for Busi and specially Iniesta, I love them, yet the whole they made Messi was more of a Chiringuito stuff than anything.
For years it was said that Messi was a "system player", one of the most silly things ever said, just in order to feed the agenda of the press against him in order to demerit his talent. Sometimes I wish he played for Real, they are more clever in how to elevate their main figures (and has a more powerful reach on every sense), than Barca's self destruct tendency on every order.
That quartet cliked like angels and fed themselves in a very generous way, that it's the main thing of why the click so well. Their egos, that they had, recognized what everyone brought to the table and helped each other, but individually Iniesta and Messi would have had it easier (never 100% secure) to work wonders on any fecking club without "buts" from any type of coach. Busi and Xavi, SADLY, need more of coaches that get what they bring and understand what they need to make them feel and play better, since make them better, makes a better team overall.
One of the best examples that many here will remember was the Final in 2011. United started really really well, the Barca mid was struggling at first with the high pace back and forth situation, the match needed some pause and an extra man. Xavi called for Messi to drop and even a single play like that high pressure from Vidic to Messi ending in that glorius nutmegg made United hesitate to keep a high line, suddenly there were 4 in the mid all the time and those four were fellas that have telepathic understanding and technically as sound as you can get, the rest is history.
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Not a horribly significant statistic, but interesting nonetheless:
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-to-be-best-players-of-2020s.2105517/page-16#post-42781136
https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-to-be-best-players-of-2020s.2105517/page-16#post-42781136
River in the 40's and 50's was pulling a phenom after another in a very short period of time...the fvckers still are quite great producing elite players even if they never reached such level again
If he ever wanted to come here what would you be willing to pay? 200m?
The first part of your question cancels out the willing to pay money part.
I stopped looking further down the list when I saw Sancho's name up there. Nothing on Yamal.
How long before he starts winning Balon d'ors?
Love the aggression when referring to them you Boca fan
Thing is, competition is quite bad these days, so if he really keeps going and developing as well as he does now, I can see him winning Ballon d'Or quite quickly and in multiples.
Love the aggression when referring to them you Boca fan
well...credit when its due, they have always been a great academy
Ajax went from Cruyff (1947) to Van Basten (1964) fairly swiftly, punctuated with talents like Rijkaard (1962) and Bergamp (1969) around the same time. (Rijkaard's and Van Basten's time at the academy seems fairly nominal, though.)
United'd gone from Edwards (potentially - I couldn't begin to properly assess him) and Charlton (1936 and 1937) to George Best (1946, frequently overhyped in terms of stature in the game, but genuinely around that level of talent, IMO).
Santos'd graduated from Robinho to Neymar (and Rodrygo a little later) in quick succession, though personally I'd only really entertain Neymar as an option here. Sporting similarly had Futre, Figo, and Cristiano, all within a twenty year period. Di Stefano was probably about eighteen when he'd joined River's largely homegrown "La Maquina" generation, so probably not quite a youth product, but YMMV. Defensively, Milan had Baresi and Maldini emerge eight years apart.
I think that's largely it in terms of vaguely modern footballers. (PSV's run of Gullit --> Romario --> Ronaldo --> RVN --> Robben is, for a less than massive club financially, worth mentioning in passing, but none of them were actually developed at Eindhoven.)
There's always also-rans and could-have-beens. (Puskas, possibly, judging by the way older players all seem to talk about him - always remembering he'd missed over two years of club football due to refusing to return to Hungary, and tended to look at least 10kg overweight at Madrid. Best and Zico certainly weren't a million miles off that standard. Players like Baggio, and arguably even Van Basten, faced potentially crippling injuries before they'd even gotten started -- it's hardly unreasonable to wonder how highly we'd think of them under more idyllic circumstances, which some people seem quite wont to do.)
Ultimately, sheer talent's just the quickest way to get your foot in through the door, though. Gerd Muller has as much of a case for "greatest' center forward ever as Ronaldo, Van Basten, or Romario. Cristiano's ran Messi far closer than most people care to admit. Platini was better than Zico, Laudrup, or Zidane, etc.
"Even" an Mbappe probably still has a path to getting in various GOAT conversations, if the stars align correctly, and he performs well enough on big occasions.
First CL he wins, he'll be crowned. Only other option would be if Spain keep winning tournaments.
If he played for us, he'll be stuck in our reserves with everyone saying he's not physical enough.
Ajax is a great call - the rest as well.
In the 40's Labruna, Moreno (Boca rejected him, go figure...) and Pedernera were all River products, not happy with that insane home grown line up, later arrived Di Stefano, he joined River from a very small "Social" Club and he started a bit late in that club either, that's why River has a bigger claim than if he came from a more established Club and he also had the "River style", still he wasn't strictly born there since 14 or such.
Later in the beggining of the 50's they had Sivori, whom BTW debuted at 17 with a goal and had a couple of great seasons being a kid, winning titles and ended in a transfer that paid part of River's stadium to Juve. Even more than Puskas, Sivori is quite unfairly forgotten for a player of such stature.
As a colorful side note, River not happy with producing those, also snatch players like Loustau, a winger that was called "Chaplin"/"pistola" due to his volatile and very playful approach to the game, a fella that loved to throw a similar play like the Cryuff Turn, yet on the run and earned quite a similar level of prasie as the aforementioned "la maquina" players developed in River (he arrived quite young at 19 nonetheless).
Quite off topic, but this at times unintentional and obviously bad filmed (even stated in the beggining of the film as an apology, it was like if the filmed a training with a cellphone) vid from River in the 40's is quite cool, specially the part where they do some skills (8:52 min mark) like: the original and real bycicle, la marianela, etc:
Also Losteau and some of his sort of Johan's turns while running
Sorry for the derrail!
Later in the beggining of the 50's they had Sivori, whom BTW debuted at 17 with a goal and had a couple of great seasons being a kid, winning titles and ended in a transfer that paid part of River's stadium to Juve. Even more than Puskas, Sivori is quite unfairly forgotten for a player of such stature.
As a colorful side note, River not happy with producing those, also snatch players like Loustau, a winger that was called "Chaplin"/"pistola" due to his volatile and very playful approach to the game, a fella that loved to throw a similar play like the Cryuff Turn, yet on the run and earned quite a similar level of prasie as the aforementioned "la maquina" players developed in River (he arrived quite young at 19 nonetheless).
Quite off topic, but this at times unintentional and obviously bad filmed (even stated in the beggining of the film as an apology, it was like if the filmed a training with a cellphone) vid from River in the 40's is quite cool, specially the part where they do some skills (8:52 min mark) like: the original and real bycicle, la marianela, etc:
Also Losteau and some of his sort of Johan's turns while running
Sorry for the derrail!
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Beautiful video.
That’s some brilliant ball control and technique despite obviously shitty ball, shoes and pitch! Thanks for sharing that, they really look more silky and technically capable than many of the current players
Beautiful video.
That’s some brilliant ball control and technique despite obviously shitty ball, shoes and pitch! Thanks for sharing that, they really look more silky and technically capable than many of the current players
Your welcome man, yeap sady old stuff looks weird because they hardly edited matches, or anything they filmed.
Also the Frames aren't correct and everything looks like silent comedy movies.
I really hate that moves like "la Marianlea" and the "real bycicle" are hardly done today, I remember Gica in some friendly at his 50s? can't recall threw a couple of Marianelas. What a player Gica BTW.
Monaco had both Henry and Mbappe, only twenty-one years apart. I thought I might have missed a beat with Bayern (Beckenbauer and Gerd Muller, quickly followed by the ten years younger Rummenigge), but Rummenigge'd actually joined them from an amateur club at basically nineteen, similarly to Muller himself. Flamengo brought through Adriano and Vinicius in the fairly recent past.
It's vaguely interesting that Milan never really had what I'd consider clear, ~"generational" attacking talents beyond Van Basten and/or Gullit, despite their massive buying power between the late Eighties and the Naughties. (Kaka and Savicevic, if you squint? Maybe Shevchenko? They had high hopes for Pato, but I'm not sure he really had that kind of talent, even if he'd stayed healthy. Crocked, washed versions of Baggio, Ronaldinho, and Rivaldo shouldn't really count. Ibrahimovic was a more prolific but considerably less dynamic player by the time they'd gotten him, even if you think he qualifies.
Obviously I'm using slightly harsher standards here than for some of the above.)
Surely that ball is easier to control because it's less bouncy.Beautiful video.
That’s some brilliant ball control and technique despite obviously shitty ball, shoes and pitch! Thanks for sharing that, they really look more silky and technically capable than many of the current players
I've been looking for this video for a bit now, mostly with this quote in mind:
(See 2:25 and 5:25 in particular. Full match highlights here.)
I find it very difficult to argue Yamal lacks either vision or composure under these circumstances - he's arguably demonstrated more of them sooner. The fact he dribbles slightly less is largely besides the point. (And he's pulling off more and more runs matching your description regardless.)
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Dunno man, you've seem to see some atributes in Lamine at 16 that I didn't see with him, in fact I've upload a vid of Messi at 16 when we were talking about the way that due to his atributes and style Messi was dealing with really harsh tackling time and again and how that type of players have a more individualistic edge (with variables, Diego was diff than Messi for instance) due to those atributes when very young. In any case, seems we won't agree in such regard.
And as a side note, in general I've talked in this thread that I don't agree that never in the past of the huge history of the game very proficient legendary players made great things at very young ages, like for isnatnce Sivori of the top of my head, that many won't even know or wrong assumptions of how Diego played in Argentinos Juniors etc (not saying that you are in that boat).
What we would agree it's that he has the making of a generation talent and that let's hope stops a bit the silly and over the top "lack of talent" every gen faces in comparison with past periods. More and more young guns are showing their faces in this logical transitional stage and he is the one that I preffer (along with Wirtz) right now.
PD: Great vid BTW, the more vids, the better!
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Watching him in the last few matches and sporadically this season, and comparing him to a teenage Messi, he does not impress me as much. He has a better final pass that is it; Messi was more raw but it is obvious that his ceiling was higher. Yamal will become a great but not Messi level.
Probably too drunk in thinking this, but wouldn’t you pay a billion of whether currency for him?
I mean he’s absolutely otherworldly.
It would probably take 2 billion of extricating him and getting him singed up. But surely it’s money well spent.
If someone spent 2bn on him and he craiced up all to he is then — it’s money well spent.
I understand that nothing is for certain but surely he’s we can all see that we’re witnessing something incredible?
*Ive zero knowledge if he has a billion euro/pound/dollar buy out. But if he does?
I mean he’s absolutely otherworldly.
It would probably take 2 billion of extricating him and getting him singed up. But surely it’s money well spent.
If someone spent 2bn on him and he craiced up all to he is then — it’s money well spent.
I understand that nothing is for certain but surely he’s we can all see that we’re witnessing something incredible?
*Ive zero knowledge if he has a billion euro/pound/dollar buy out. But if he does?
He reminds of Thierry Henry when he was in his prime. Just strutting about and making everything look effortless.. except Henry was actually in his prime. I’m no talking output but it’s: ridiculous.
2 billion on Yamal is money well spent? 
Yeah. Why not?2 billion on Yamal is money well spent?
As I’ve said—unless, God forbid; a career ending injury—where I am wrong in this’?
Obviously not a good investment at those prices (barring massive inflation, anyway - so maybe check again in thirty days). Regular clubs will be putting their entire future at real jeopardy, and probably placing their wage structure under unsustainable strain. "Oil clubs', et al, would be breaking kayfabe for relatively minimal gains (and actually likely to be testing the broad limits of their budgets).
I can see it in terms of ball control and passing but Yamal has dribbling Henry never had which is impressive
I don't think he will become Messi either, but he's achieved more at the same age, especially internationally.
He's a different type of player anyway. I'm just happy to wait and see what happens.
2 billion on Yamal is money well spent?
Then he does his cruciate or other bad injury and never the same again. Maybe not 2bn...
He's a very good young player, mainly though it's massive overhype.
Firstly because there's a real dirth of superstar players in the pressing bot tactical era. So more attention on him.
Secondly because a lot of the teams in la liga are garbage now and Barcelona generally look like the Harlem globe trotters v them.
If you gave me Messi when he was 17 with the benefit of knowing exactly how the next 15-20 years pans out for him, 2 billion would still be a crazy thing to pay. Thats how much normal big clubs spend over a period of two decades. I think Yamal is an absurd talent. I was just thrown off by the 2 billion thing.
I think you’re underrating him, and underrating La Liga to be honest. We do have stars Haaland, Mbappe, Vinicius, Bellingham, Musiala etc. They’re not superstars, but they’re stars.
I dont think anyone is doing him a favour by comparing him to Messi. Achievements are one thing but individually, comparing him to THE most talented footballer atleast 30 to 50 years or maybe ever, is putting alot of pressure on him. He has the talent to become a great, no doubt. But he ain't Messi level which isn't a shame at all because no one was.
The biggest advantage Yamal has is that he plays for Spain who look set to dominate the near future and crucially they play a very similar style to Barcelona. Messi on the other hand played for a rather chaotic national team.