They lost that game, so yeah, pretty sure Trap was furious. Seems like it's a big historic win in Austrian football history going by that blog entry. Also, Krankl vs Trap sounds like an awesome manager duel.
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - QF Joga Bonito/Balu vs Sjor Bepo/anant
- Thread starter Marty1968
- Start date
Yes, there's some aura to that, no doubt.
They won 2-1 at home, but then proceeded to lose 1-3 in Milan. Inter went on to win the tournament that season. What always strikes me about that era is how many strong teams were kicking about in the UEFA Cup. Several teams from each of the top leagues - loads of huge names doing their business in that tournament.
UEFA ruined the UEFA cup with the CL extension to 4 teams. And what's even worse now is that many seem to have forgotten how big and important the UEFA cup was compared to the Europa League today. Both competitions shouldn't be seen as the same. The fact that Sevilla is now the record holder with 4 UEFA Cup/EL wins ahead of Juventus makes no sense. And that's not in any way meant as disrespectful to Sevilla, it's just an entirely different competition now and Juve's and Inter's 3 UEFA cup wins in the 70's, 80's and early 90's should be valued a lot higher.
Absolutely.
The format was actually brilliant: You had the European Cup which held the ultimate glory of being a true (league) champions' tournament - and then you had the UEFA which held the glory of being a bloody strong tournament featuring multiple top sides from the major leagues. And on top of that, the Cup Winners', which was always good for some quality encounters - and was a genuinely coveted trophy.
These days, you have the CL - and that's it. Nobody really cares about the Europa - not in the sense you'd ideally want. Reasonable people realize that it's a decent tournament - but there's zero glory in it. Everything down to their sad little theme song is just tacky and second rate compared to the A-list event.
It's money, though, of course - like always.
True. As bad as the CL expansion was for the UEFA Cup, I still reckon dumping the 3rd place CL group stage clubs into the Europa League knockout stages just shredded the value of the Europa League completely.
Its a shame really. As much as I enjoy the CL, a better balance should have been struck between expanding it and preserving some level of prestige for the UEFA Cup.
sorry guys was unable to contribute earlier and now it looks like the game is over but will try to answer few "questions" about my team.
To be honest i didnt expect that joga and balu will drop one offensive player for a defender so by doing that they closed really well my second route to goal and thats Luis Enrique who would be my first route to goal if they played with 4 men defence. But on the other hand they weakened their attack and against my defensive unit they will have the same problems as me on the other hand. Wing-backs are doubled and even when they manage to cross the ball into the area im pretty comfortable with Godin and Stam ability to defend the cross + with my team sitting deep the middle will be congested as feck and there will be almost no space between the lines.
Both teams are canceling each other well so i have to look at little things that may decide the game:
To be honest i didnt expect that joga and balu will drop one offensive player for a defender so by doing that they closed really well my second route to goal and thats Luis Enrique who would be my first route to goal if they played with 4 men defence. But on the other hand they weakened their attack and against my defensive unit they will have the same problems as me on the other hand. Wing-backs are doubled and even when they manage to cross the ball into the area im pretty comfortable with Godin and Stam ability to defend the cross + with my team sitting deep the middle will be congested as feck and there will be almost no space between the lines.
Both teams are canceling each other well so i have to look at little things that may decide the game:
- We have a better gk
- think we have a edge at set pieces, Totti delivery + Stam, Godin, Kluivert, Martinez attacking the ball.
- Totti vs Buchwald, as good as Buchwald i think there is a good chance that Totti would get the better of him. I know he once man marked Maradona out of the game but this things happen, it cant be a guarantee that Totti wont be able to shine. fecking Otamendi stopped Messi 2 seasons ago and he is fecking shit. Not saying Buchwald was shit dont get me wrong, he was a very good defender from little that i know but Totti is a special player and you cant take for granted that he will be stopped specially as the team was prepared in the way that he could shine.
The magic bond between them:
and few more from Enrique down the left wing
Gif attack over
Superb work Sjor. You're outdoing all of us in the research stakes this draft. I've got to admit I sometimes forget quite how good Kluivert was when I see him pop up in these drafts, despite really enjoying watching that Barca team at the time. A timely reminder .
.That's really great, @Šjor Bepo
wow excellent effort Sjor. More of that please.
I think you need to sell Camoranesi a bit more with gifs like that. It will put a better overview on that attacking set up.
I think you need to sell Camoranesi a bit more with gifs like that. It will put a better overview on that attacking set up.
cheers guys
I thought about it but when i saw joga and balu picked Carlos i decided against it as that makes Camoranesi play the game that he likes.
Watch it here, you can see everything that Camoranesi offers bar movement(as that is something you cant really see in gifs/clips). Great use of the ball, works hard like always, little bit of skill and fantastic delivery.....got 3 assists in that game. His delivery from the flank with 2 great headers of the ball in the middle in Kluivert and Lucho
Teamwork make dream work. We have 4 midfielders next to Totti who will ensure that he is in the best possible position to shine. All of them are hard workers and team players who will make sacrifices when needed but also all of them are perfectly capable of deciding the game on their own as they are all great players with lots of ability on the ball.
I thought about it but when i saw joga and balu picked Carlos i decided against it as that makes Camoranesi play the game that he likes.
Watch it here, you can see everything that Camoranesi offers bar movement(as that is something you cant really see in gifs/clips). Great use of the ball, works hard like always, little bit of skill and fantastic delivery.....got 3 assists in that game. His delivery from the flank with 2 great headers of the ball in the middle in Kluivert and Lucho
Teamwork make dream work. We have 4 midfielders next to Totti who will ensure that he is in the best possible position to shine. All of them are hard workers and team players who will make sacrifices when needed but also all of them are perfectly capable of deciding the game on their own as they are all great players with lots of ability on the ball.
Good work there @Šjor Bepo. Kluivert was always excellent at bringing the best out of the players around him. Never a heavy goalscorer, but held the ball up so well for the likes of Luis Enrique and Rivaldo. Good use of Luis Enrique too, I can see his directness causing problems for Alonso.
A great article on the goalscoring exploits of Diego Forlan. (You'd seriously struggle to find a more goal compilation)
He is, says the cover of El Mundo Deportivo "Superman", knickers on the outside, wellies over his tights, cape flapping behind him; AS calls him "a miracle worker". What he is not is the Diego Forlorn of Old Trafford lore, the man whose best season reaped six goals. Five years of Spanish success later, it shouldn't need saying but let's say it anyway: Diego Forlán is really rather good. "We've run out of words to describe him," sighed one newspaper, forgetting the leche and the hostia. The milk, the consecrated bread. The business.
Few players have been as reliable. Forlán won the European Golden Boot in his first season in La Liga and is just three short of 100 league goals in five years. His average rating, game by game, has seen him among Spain's top five for three of the last four seasons (and he's on course for four in five). He runs and runs and just when you think he's tired, he sets off on another sprint. He battles yet appears indestructible, rarely getting injured or carded: in four seasons he has missed just eight matches and collected 11 yellows. Clever, quick, and genuinely two footed, when he gets a chance he doesn't waste it. This season, he's missed just three games, collected two bookings and, most important of all, scored 27 goals. Thirteen with his left, 13 with his right and one with his head.
But it is not just that Forlán is a solitary goal behind Barcelona's Samuel Eto'o. Or even that he's the highest scoring atlético in 20 years, ahead of Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink and Christian Vieri. It is that he is single-handedly rescuing Atlético from ruin; that in a season when Sergio Agüero has only occasionally repeated last season's wonderful form, he's the leader – dragging a disastrous side towards the Champions League. It is that El País dubbed the team "Atlético Forlán" and that against Betis last week he scored both in a vital 2–0 win, leaving another newspaper musing: "Forlán and nothing else".
Hardly surprising, really. After all, in the second half of the season, Forlán alone has 50% of Atleti's goals, scoring 15 in the last 14 games. And even when it's not Forlán and nothing else, he's the one that makes nothing else something else. Not only has he scored 27, he's provided ten assists. Off the pitch, he cuts a lone figure, a man whose commitment and seriousness leave him in a state of almost perpetual disappointment with team-"mates". But on it, he drives them on those nights when rojiblancos remember why they support Atleti. "Forlán," says his coach, reaching for the face mask, "is highly contagious."
"With Forlán, anything's possible," says Marca – even success at a club the president and the owner seem to be trying to ruin, one that has no defence and a coach with no authority. When Atlético came back from 2–0 down to defeat Villarreal 3–2, it was Forlán who made it 2–2 on 82 minutes. When they came back from 2–0 down to defeat Barcelona 4–3, he it was that gave them belief with a ludicrous 627-yarder just as everyone was giving up, and then made it 3–3 with 10 minutes to go. And when Atlético found themselves in much the same position against Espanyol last night, it was Forlán yet again who rescued them.
This mission was his hardest yet. Atlético were seeking to reconcile themselves with fans who had seen them fall away pathetically since their latest false dawn. A 5–1 stuffing in Santander saw 20,000 stay away against Sporting Gijón, while those who did go whistled their players, ironically launching chants of "¡Balón de Oro!" at Mariano Pernía, and called for the president's smug head. They were also fighting for a desperately needed Champions League place: with the front four – Forlán, Agüero, Simao and Maxi – accounting for over half the club's wage bill, failure to qualify would mean summer departures. (Although so too will the players' desires).
It wasn't going well. Atlético were 2–0 and a man down. Perea had been sent off for maiming Francisco Chica. Pernía had given away another ridiculous penalty – Atleti's 10th. The dope was swirling and so were the heads. The fans were going for president, players and the ref. That pissed bloke was staggering about pleading with journalists to write what they could see but all they could see, apart from his glazed eyes, bare chest, and T-shirt turned scarf declaring simply: "puta!", was another disaster. A back four playing so high you wondered if they were trying to catch the front four offside and a game in which, but for a flag-happy linesman and a handful of misses, Espanyol could have been five up. Worse, Sevilla, Villarreal, and Valencia had all collected points. Atlético were screwed. With 55 points and just three games to go, they were seventh, eight points behind Sevilla, four behind Valencia and one behind Villarreal. Hell, they were even a point behind Deportivo.
So much had happened that Marca's match report was on its third par when the writer paused: "You know what," he said, "it's an utter disgrace that we haven't mentioned Forlán yet." So he did. How could he not? After all, it was then that Forlán took control, launching a missile from somewhere on the M30 that screeched past Carlos Kameni. Atleti were reborn, the fans revived. Agüero made it 2–2. And in the 93rd minute, Forlán completed another epic comeback of his own making. Whipping off his top, he dived into the crowd as the Calderón launched into a chant of "¡Uruguayo! ¡Uruguayo! ¡Uruguayo!", all that anger momentarily forgotten. Their season had looked all but over; suddenly, thanks to their very own Olympian, they were a solitary point off fourth-placed Valencia, who they play at the Calderón next week. Diego Forlán may not be able to throw a discus very far but he may, just, have carried an entire football team back into Europe.
goal compilation)He is, says the cover of El Mundo Deportivo "Superman", knickers on the outside, wellies over his tights, cape flapping behind him; AS calls him "a miracle worker". What he is not is the Diego Forlorn of Old Trafford lore, the man whose best season reaped six goals. Five years of Spanish success later, it shouldn't need saying but let's say it anyway: Diego Forlán is really rather good. "We've run out of words to describe him," sighed one newspaper, forgetting the leche and the hostia. The milk, the consecrated bread. The business.
Few players have been as reliable. Forlán won the European Golden Boot in his first season in La Liga and is just three short of 100 league goals in five years. His average rating, game by game, has seen him among Spain's top five for three of the last four seasons (and he's on course for four in five). He runs and runs and just when you think he's tired, he sets off on another sprint. He battles yet appears indestructible, rarely getting injured or carded: in four seasons he has missed just eight matches and collected 11 yellows. Clever, quick, and genuinely two footed, when he gets a chance he doesn't waste it. This season, he's missed just three games, collected two bookings and, most important of all, scored 27 goals. Thirteen with his left, 13 with his right and one with his head.
But it is not just that Forlán is a solitary goal behind Barcelona's Samuel Eto'o. Or even that he's the highest scoring atlético in 20 years, ahead of Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink and Christian Vieri. It is that he is single-handedly rescuing Atlético from ruin; that in a season when Sergio Agüero has only occasionally repeated last season's wonderful form, he's the leader – dragging a disastrous side towards the Champions League. It is that El País dubbed the team "Atlético Forlán" and that against Betis last week he scored both in a vital 2–0 win, leaving another newspaper musing: "Forlán and nothing else".
Hardly surprising, really. After all, in the second half of the season, Forlán alone has 50% of Atleti's goals, scoring 15 in the last 14 games. And even when it's not Forlán and nothing else, he's the one that makes nothing else something else. Not only has he scored 27, he's provided ten assists. Off the pitch, he cuts a lone figure, a man whose commitment and seriousness leave him in a state of almost perpetual disappointment with team-"mates". But on it, he drives them on those nights when rojiblancos remember why they support Atleti. "Forlán," says his coach, reaching for the face mask, "is highly contagious."
"With Forlán, anything's possible," says Marca – even success at a club the president and the owner seem to be trying to ruin, one that has no defence and a coach with no authority. When Atlético came back from 2–0 down to defeat Villarreal 3–2, it was Forlán who made it 2–2 on 82 minutes. When they came back from 2–0 down to defeat Barcelona 4–3, he it was that gave them belief with a ludicrous 627-yarder just as everyone was giving up, and then made it 3–3 with 10 minutes to go. And when Atlético found themselves in much the same position against Espanyol last night, it was Forlán yet again who rescued them.
This mission was his hardest yet. Atlético were seeking to reconcile themselves with fans who had seen them fall away pathetically since their latest false dawn. A 5–1 stuffing in Santander saw 20,000 stay away against Sporting Gijón, while those who did go whistled their players, ironically launching chants of "¡Balón de Oro!" at Mariano Pernía, and called for the president's smug head. They were also fighting for a desperately needed Champions League place: with the front four – Forlán, Agüero, Simao and Maxi – accounting for over half the club's wage bill, failure to qualify would mean summer departures. (Although so too will the players' desires).
It wasn't going well. Atlético were 2–0 and a man down. Perea had been sent off for maiming Francisco Chica. Pernía had given away another ridiculous penalty – Atleti's 10th. The dope was swirling and so were the heads. The fans were going for president, players and the ref. That pissed bloke was staggering about pleading with journalists to write what they could see but all they could see, apart from his glazed eyes, bare chest, and T-shirt turned scarf declaring simply: "puta!", was another disaster. A back four playing so high you wondered if they were trying to catch the front four offside and a game in which, but for a flag-happy linesman and a handful of misses, Espanyol could have been five up. Worse, Sevilla, Villarreal, and Valencia had all collected points. Atlético were screwed. With 55 points and just three games to go, they were seventh, eight points behind Sevilla, four behind Valencia and one behind Villarreal. Hell, they were even a point behind Deportivo.
So much had happened that Marca's match report was on its third par when the writer paused: "You know what," he said, "it's an utter disgrace that we haven't mentioned Forlán yet." So he did. How could he not? After all, it was then that Forlán took control, launching a missile from somewhere on the M30 that screeched past Carlos Kameni. Atleti were reborn, the fans revived. Agüero made it 2–2. And in the 93rd minute, Forlán completed another epic comeback of his own making. Whipping off his top, he dived into the crowd as the Calderón launched into a chant of "¡Uruguayo! ¡Uruguayo! ¡Uruguayo!", all that anger momentarily forgotten. Their season had looked all but over; suddenly, thanks to their very own Olympian, they were a solitary point off fourth-placed Valencia, who they play at the Calderón next week. Diego Forlán may not be able to throw a discus very far but he may, just, have carried an entire football team back into Europe.
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Also, whilst we acknowledge that Enrique's and Camoranesi's work rate would come in handy for Sjor, Häßler and Forlan were absolutely brilliant in this regard too, reinforcing our central core even further.
Whilst Sjor does have an imposing defense, we believe we are better set-up to nullify his chief threat in Totti with Buchwald's man-marking, whilst of course we have the best defender of the draft, alongside with Ferri, his trusted compatriot for both club and country, marshalling the rear guard. Once again, Sjor could very well make that claim with that great defense of his but as Chester aptly stated, it's in the middle with the trio of Alonso-Dunga-Häßler where we gain the edge and that could prove to be a significant one, as both sides look perilously close to nullifying each other.
With that edge in midfield, and with the gloriously bearded maestro of all people pulling the strings, we can service the flamboyant Brazilian wing-back duo of R.Carlos and Alves to a higher extent and of course provide better quality service to our lethal forward duo, with Häßler esp at the fore with his incisive passing. Could the same be said of sjor's team who has the heartbeat and cheif creator of his side - Totti - being pestered by Buchwald throughout the game?
Speaking of magic bonds, Bergomi and Ferri were right at the centre of it all for Inter's record breaking scudetto - conceding a miserly 19 goals in an already stingy league. This pair excelled both for club and country - the latter whereby Ferri kept the likes of Vierchowod and Napoli's Ferrara out of the national side for the Euro 1988 and in WC 1990 - an era when Italy arguably had its best defensive generation ever, which is only testament to Ferri's quality. Not much needs to be said about Bergomi in this regard, one of the very select few all time greats present in this draft, who will in all likelihood make an Italian XI of all time for his displays for the Nerazzurri and the Azzurri for that matter - quite some feat considering that the Italians have the greatest assortment of defenders.
Whilst Sjor does have an imposing defense, we believe we are better set-up to nullify his chief threat in Totti with Buchwald's man-marking, whilst of course we have the best defender of the draft, alongside with Ferri, his trusted compatriot for both club and country, marshalling the rear guard. Once again, Sjor could very well make that claim with that great defense of his but as Chester aptly stated, it's in the middle with the trio of Alonso-Dunga-Häßler where we gain the edge and that could prove to be a significant one, as both sides look perilously close to nullifying each other.
With that edge in midfield, and with the gloriously bearded maestro of all people pulling the strings, we can service the flamboyant Brazilian wing-back duo of R.Carlos and Alves to a higher extent and of course provide better quality service to our lethal forward duo, with Häßler esp at the fore with his incisive passing. Could the same be said of sjor's team who has the heartbeat and cheif creator of his side - Totti - being pestered by Buchwald throughout the game?
Speaking of magic bonds, Bergomi and Ferri were right at the centre of it all for Inter's record breaking scudetto - conceding a miserly 19 goals in an already stingy league. This pair excelled both for club and country - the latter whereby Ferri kept the likes of Vierchowod and Napoli's Ferrara out of the national side for the Euro 1988 and in WC 1990 - an era when Italy arguably had its best defensive generation ever, which is only testament to Ferri's quality. Not much needs to be said about Bergomi in this regard, one of the very select few all time greats present in this draft, who will in all likelihood make an Italian XI of all time for his displays for the Nerazzurri and the Azzurri for that matter - quite some feat considering that the Italians have the greatest assortment of defenders.
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This was a really close contest but Joga-Balu's back 5 won me over. Still think it will finish 0-0 most times, having said that Bergomi and Ferri's proven combination as well as their roles in that backline are hard to look past, as well as Buchwald's marking of Totti. They really hit the nail in that trio, and not to mention the wingbacks are perfect as well, and their contribution in attack is well known which could make a difference here.
Sjor's team is incredibly hard to break down as well, absolute machines from front to back and ones who can put in tireless shifts all day long. They'll make the opposition earn every single pass.
Sjor's team is incredibly hard to break down as well, absolute machines from front to back and ones who can put in tireless shifts all day long. They'll make the opposition earn every single pass.
Xabi Alonso, one of the finest modern day playmaking deep midfielders, and the best of his ilk in this draft, will be the metronomic lynchpin, whose impact should not be underrated.
It is no surprise that the teams he starred for severely struggled to fill the void he left. He won the Don Balon award in 2003 for the best Spanish player in la liga and played a key role in Sociedad's 2nd place finish in the la liga (2 points behind Real), which resulted in the likes of Real pursuing him, but he eventually went to Liverpool where he had an excellent career. Pool's post 09 collapse has largely been attributed, by both pundits and fans alike, toward Liverpool failing to adequately replace the Spanish metronome.
Alonso was once again a driving force behind Real's record setting la liga winning vintage, having won the midfielder of the year, before forming a key part of Ancelotti's Champions League winning side. Real's midfield has never been the same after Alonso's departure though and what was once one of their strong suits, is now a fragile area, despite heavy investment.
A nice article detailing Alonso's impact on Real Madrid
It is no surprise that the teams he starred for severely struggled to fill the void he left. He won the Don Balon award in 2003 for the best Spanish player in la liga and played a key role in Sociedad's 2nd place finish in the la liga (2 points behind Real), which resulted in the likes of Real pursuing him, but he eventually went to Liverpool where he had an excellent career. Pool's post 09 collapse has largely been attributed, by both pundits and fans alike, toward Liverpool failing to adequately replace the Spanish metronome.
Alonso was once again a driving force behind Real's record setting la liga winning vintage, having won the midfielder of the year, before forming a key part of Ancelotti's Champions League winning side. Real's midfield has never been the same after Alonso's departure though and what was once one of their strong suits, is now a fragile area, despite heavy investment.
A nice article detailing Alonso's impact on Real Madrid
To be fair I like Sjor's front three better. Proven partnership with Totti in the mix.
The only issue I have with Joga/Balu's side is the same as previous rounds - I don't like Forlan in there or playing off Crespo as a whole.
I can see the reason behind not playing Aimar tho.
It's a pretty even battle all round with 0-0 the most likely outcome and going extra time.
The only issue I have with Joga/Balu's side is the same as previous rounds - I don't like Forlan in there or playing off Crespo as a whole.
I can see the reason behind not playing Aimar tho.
It's a pretty even battle all round with 0-0 the most likely outcome and going extra time.
What front three? It's either front two, a single striker or front four, I can't see how you can call it a front three
I'd consider Enrique, Totti, Kluivert as the main attacking trio. Camoranesi I can see probably running up and down the pitch and most of the time in midfield rather than a winger, while Enrique to have a little more advanced role so that he can combine with Kluivert and Totti.
Camoranesi is a real workhorse and he'll probably have a lot of dirty work in this game. Sure he'll provide the width on the right and also be part of the attacking unit but given the nature of the game he'll probably have more conservative role.
Technically you can call it a front 4 I agree tho.
I'd see Camoranesi probably more in this role and zone he occupied when Juve played Roma:
and seeing the formation most likely it's pretty much correct.
Alonso-Dunga-Hassler vs Martinez-Gundogan-Totti
where is the edge? My gameplan is to defend from deep with little or no space between the lines i dont see how Hassler is going to win you guys a game, in worst case scenario he has the same chances as Totti who is man marked "out of the game"....we are fine with Alonso controlling the game, he can spray his hollywood passes all over the pitch, makes no difference to us as we decided to give you the ball. Dunga offers zero creativty and that leaves you with narrow attack of Hassler-Forlan-Crespo against a great defensive unit who are just waiting for you guys to attack. As much as i love El Diego he is out of his depth here, this are two teams full with top class players that proved themself on the highest stage and i dont think he is good enough. He was a big fish in the small pond IMO.
Your other attacking threat are wingbacks and two brilliant ones but for start, even if both of them have a great game and just walk by their markers i have a central core that can defend crosses whole day if they need to + they are doubled, not only they are facing 2 brilliant fullbacks, they are also against 2 hardworking wingers that will help out.
With your logic and how its genuinely accepted that Buchwald will stop Totti because once he stopped Maradona - i can use the same logic with Javi Martinez and Iniesta, Javi destroyed Iniesta in 2 CL games so he can easily stop Hassler.
One more thing, Totti can drop very deep in midfield so if Buchwald doesnt go with him Totti is free to create from deep and has a chance of going face to face with Buchwald and there is only one winner there.
In other case, if Buchwald follows him and breaks the 5 men defence, the goalthreat of Luis Enrique will be the biggest in both sides. Even the 2015 Dani Alves version who is IMO the best defender of all versions wouldnt stand a chance against his movement and here is he against the wingback version in the open space.
Desperate actions, again: in a tight game and everybody acknowledge that this is the case here very often the game is decided by GK or by set pieces, we think we have the edge in both segments/areas or how do you want to call it.
I think this would be a low-scoring draw. Went with Sjor because he was trailing by quite a bit, inexplicably, and because i like the way he's set up tactically.
That seems a really stupid comment from someone who built a team around Totti. Don't get me wrong, I rate Totti. I just wouldn't ever argue against his peak form because he only did it in a big fish in the small pond way. Some actually do underrate him because he never made the step up to one of the elite teams. It's just stupid to hold that against someone who clearly has done the business at an elite level.
Regarding the Martinez vs Buchwald debate. Well, it's a bit difficult to judge Martinez based on only one season. Not that he wasn't exceptional for Bayern in 12/13, but Buchwald was the captain and leader of a title winning side, proving his worth again and again against pretty much every opponent he faced. Martinez in his one quality season for Bayern started merely 19 out of 34 league games. Martinez simply didn't reach Buchwald's peak Bundesliga level, didn't ever have a comparable importance to his team and certainly didn't back it up with a somewhat reasonable number of games.
While Totti stayed his whole career with Roma he proved his quality at the highest stage, Forlan in my opinion didnt.....if you think thats stupid, ok. Really not interested in that debate.
As for Martinez - Buchwald debate....i dont think i can use the Iniesta argument nor will i try, i just wanted to illustrate my frustration how is genuinely accepted that Buchwald will stop Totti and that shouldnt be a case. I dont doubt Buchwald credentials for one second....Totti proved his quality in the golden age of Serie A where most teams defended very well and the league was full of top class players. He is used to being man marked, tight marking etc. as he is dealing with that for half of his career.
I do have a bit of a problem with the Martinez pick, because as important as his presence was in the CL knockout rounds for us, his impact in the Bundesliga was simply minor (and league form is what this draft is about after all). He joined the team late, was slowly phased into the team and once he became a regular starter we were already way ahead in the league. He started only 3 of the first 12 games and we were 8 points clear at that point. He then got a run of games as a regular starter for a third of the season before he was constantly rotated in and out of the team to keep him fresh for the CL games.
I don't think we ever said that Buchwald will just stop Totti for good. But it's reasonable to assume that he'll cause him problems and limit his influence. And when Totti gets the better of him, we still have an outstanding central defensive core at the back in Bergomi - Ferri. Let's not forget that Bergomi is clearly the standout defender in the draft.
His impact in the Bundesliga is minor because you are few classes above everyone else in the league. When i watched him he was great at what he does but the problem is, there wasnt much to do in most of the games. Shall we take that against him? Not sure if we should as its not his fault that more often then not Bayern has traning games in the league.
You never said it but it seems that way as Totti is neglected in this game and he is the best player on the pitch along with Bergomi. Yes you have a great defensive core at the back and thats why i said that our sides closed each other very well and if there would be a winner its going to be by one goal.
That's actually a great point, I certainly was thinking about the player that dominated the midfield with Schweiny in the later stages of CL when I was voting in the first game.
Nope, that's not it. There's a reason why this Bayern side is brilliant and it's the players. They deserve lots of credit for playing a record breaking league season in 12/13. Martinez's impact was minor compared to many others in the team because he didn't play all that much. If he was a regular for 2 consecutive seasons with consistent performances, I'd praise him to no end here and give him all the credit no matter how far above every one else Bayern was in the league. It's just not the case and I hate it how injuries ruined the following seasons for him.
Not the greatest fan of either side as they stand right now. After watching all the goals from Forlans greatest Atletico season they all came from central areas except two, one came from the right and one from the left I believe. If we exclude his performances for Uruguay(and European Competitions) it is hard to see him as any more of a wide player than most strikers as nearly all drifts wide in games to find space. Would be loved to be proven wrong with some longer clips of him drifting wide in a manner that the rest of the strikers don't to fully believe he'd provide that extra width.
Not that it is too important anyhow, he's a mobile striker and having both Crespo and him on the pitch makes me think they'd edge a goal in a very even game. It just looks a bit harder to score against Bergomi-Ferri with Buchwald man marking Totti. Both teams looks most likely to get chances from their full backs delivering crosses and it just has to be an edge for Alves and Carlos in that regard. Alves in particular was as much of a match winner for a full back as they come in terms of productivity. Big fan of Kluivert though for this match with a lot of crosses coming in to the box for him to work with.
I am not the biggest fan of Totti as an AM, he'd have been awesome as a lone striker in this match making Buchwald overkill while Sjor could control the rest of the pitch with a man more there.
Not that it is too important anyhow, he's a mobile striker and having both Crespo and him on the pitch makes me think they'd edge a goal in a very even game. It just looks a bit harder to score against Bergomi-Ferri with Buchwald man marking Totti. Both teams looks most likely to get chances from their full backs delivering crosses and it just has to be an edge for Alves and Carlos in that regard. Alves in particular was as much of a match winner for a full back as they come in terms of productivity. Big fan of Kluivert though for this match with a lot of crosses coming in to the box for him to work with.
I am not the biggest fan of Totti as an AM, he'd have been awesome as a lone striker in this match making Buchwald overkill while Sjor could control the rest of the pitch with a man more there.
Of course its because players, they deserve credit but what i mean is that he is a defensive midfielder first and foremost and when you are playing against much weaker sides your role/impact is minimal as this are the games where offensive players take the stage.
Point taken for number of games where he played.
@Annahnomoss did you even read the OP? Joga wingbacks are his biggest strength and main offensive outlets while mine will defend for 75% the game so dont know how smart it is to compare their offensive impacts.
Went with Sjor at the end, although it still looks to me like a dead even 0-0. Kluivert/Enrique partnership has the synergy that IMO Crespo/Forlan in that wideish role will lack a bit and while defence/midfields are a bit even with some advantage here and there, having a bit of a edge in attack would make the slight slight difference for me.
Forlan had an inclination to drop deep-ish into the left hand side channels before attacking from withdrawn positions and he had the freedom to do so in a fluid forward duo for Atletico. We could understand people having reservations with Forlan in an inside left role in 4-2-3-1 (although we ourselves believe his game-play suits that position) but in a 3-5-2 with a one man flank in Roberto Carlos, it's more critical that he provides dynamism and movement rather than width primarily. We already have Häßler who was brilliant on both flanks in this regard and even that could be construed as a bonus given the strength of our wing-backs.
Anyway, in both these comprehensive match footages against Barca, Forlan clearly exhibits his tendency and preference to start from or drop into the left or to the channels/deeper areas and truly excels in a free role between the lines for Atletico. Imo his link-up play and all-round game frequently tends to go under the radar due to his fantastic goalscoring record. He was a delight to play alongside as Aguero would very well testify. At his peak for Atletico, he was a damn near one man team with his graft, bloody-minded drive and leadership qualities coming right to the fore.
Please read more about him in this post that I made above
Dinho
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Agree with this - I've gone for Sjor in a close 1-0.
I'm not a big fan of Joga's attack and fancy Totti to make the difference in a very tight game.
12:11 ffs, already prepared new formation with Gazza in there
12:11 ffs, already prepared new formation with Gazza in there
Good game mate. Apologies if we were too harsh during discussions.
Anyway, more clarification on the rationale behind the forward duo not possessing synergy would be welcome
@Theon
@Enigma_87
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Good game mate. Apologies if we were too harsh during discussions.
Anyway more clarification on the rationale behind the forward duo not possessing synergy would be welcome
@Theon
@Enigma_87
thanks, good game as well
no need for apologies, its probably the friendliest game of the draft
the only thing that pisses me of is the fact that is only 1 vote difference so i will lose without being able to put Gazza on as its a close onelets try to get few more votes and opinions:
@Downcast @KirkDuyt @Invictus @Physiocrat @Pat_Mustard @mazhar13
edit: scrap that, didnt realize the game is over
Abstained on the basis this had 0-0 written all over it.
Should've ended in penalties
Gazza when i told him he is coming on.....
....minutes later when we realized the game is over.
....minutes later when we realized the game is over.
I didn't want to start the discussion during the match, because I'm not 100% sure myself and you never know what reaction you get to criticising a Caf favourite. But does everyone really rate Stam on his Serie A peak? It seems as if everyone just assumes it's him in his peak, but in my opinion he never showed his best form in Italy. I think @Donaldo mentioned it in the previous game when someone called him brilliant at Milan, which he wasn't.
So how good was he at Lazio? My impression was that he never got back to his best after he was suspended for half a year for steroid use in his first season in Italy. As far as I know he was good, but not that great the following 2 years at Lazio and then a good sidekick at Milan for 2 more seasons with mixed performances in the league.
It's really a question because I'm not 100% sure, which is another reason why I avoided the discussion. I think @Pat_Mustard even included him in his best possible eleven for this draft, which made zero sense to me. So am I totally wrong?
So how good was he at Lazio? My impression was that he never got back to his best after he was suspended for half a year for steroid use in his first season in Italy. As far as I know he was good, but not that great the following 2 years at Lazio and then a good sidekick at Milan for 2 more seasons with mixed performances in the league.
It's really a question because I'm not 100% sure, which is another reason why I avoided the discussion. I think @Pat_Mustard even included him in his best possible eleven for this draft, which made zero sense to me. So am I totally wrong?