I don't think it's an issue for Modric to play RCM or LCM really. He's equally apt on both flanks. He provides a lot of cover for Real's midfield especially since it has only Kroos now with largely attacking setup. Same goes for Marcelo as he is usually on his own at that flank. Worst case Helmer would cover the loose player as well, while Lucio watches over for Voller.
La Liga/Serie A/BuLi Draft - 1st Rd Enigma_87/Snow vs Tuppet
- Thread starter Marty1968
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I don't think it's an issue for Modric to play RCM or LCM really. He's equally apt on both flanks. He provides a lot of cover for Real's midfield especially since it has only Kroos now with largely attacking setup. Same goes for Marcelo as he is usually on his own at that flank. Worst case Helmer would cover the loose player as well, while Lucio watches over for Voller.
He was behind Schmeichel in Ballon d'Or vote:
5. Peter Schmeichel Denmark Manchester United 41 2 1 6 3 3 15
6. Brian Laudrup Denmark Fiorentina 32 1 1 4 3 5 14
And he was the second best player for Denmark in that tournament and without his flair they wouldn't have won anything - the team of workhorses needed two geniuses - in the goal and up front.
That's kind of debatable, as he was at Brondby halfway through the year he was still at Brondby and had only half a season at Uerdingen.
it's difficult to single one in that EURO win. For me it was largely a team effort. Schmikes, Olsen, Larsen and of course Laudrup were all excellent. Dunno who I would single out to be fair.
It's not much relevant but without saying it Michael really should regret his decision. IMO with his stature and winning the cup would earned him a bit more rightful place amongst the best players in the 90's. For me he was a bit under appreciated. At club level he always made the smart decisions joining hungry teams and winning all sorts of stuff, but that alone should be a mistake on his part.
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It's certainly an interesting topic. I'm not sure that Denmark would've won it with both Laudrups present - their main strength was that they all knew their limits. Only Laudrup was allowed creative freedom, and if Michael was there too, they would've been more open and attacking (surely), which could've been the end of them.
All speculation, of course, as we have no ability to know what would've happen.
Michael is definitely under appreciated
In general yes. In Redcafe draft matches? Not so much.
Yes.
Not to base it only on words - couple of examples of Nadal defending:
You can see here the first goal how Savicevic skins him with ease.
Caminero again leaving him behind with a simple trap.
@2:41
very clumsy tackle that to illustrate what I meant in the OP.
Nadal was slow, which resulted being skinned and left for dead in the games from someone with a burst of pace or high technical ability. That earned him a lot of reds as well.
You can see here the first goal how Savicevic skins him with ease.
Caminero again leaving him behind with a simple trap.
@2:41
very clumsy tackle that to illustrate what I meant in the OP.
Nadal was slow, which resulted being skinned and left for dead in the games from someone with a burst of pace or high technical ability. That earned him a lot of reds as well.
Was talking in general, yes. Here he became the hipster choice at some point and is probably rated around his real level - not quite the GOAT but one of the best ever in some aspects of his game, like his vision and passing.
There's only very few #10s I'd take over Laudrup, and they will have to need to fit better in the system otherwise I might even prefer him over better #10s. What a joy to watch that player.
While its hard to asses how good he exactly was, one thing is for sure that he was smack down middle of his peak. Internationally WC 90 and CA 91 were his best performances. Statistically he played 85 games and scored 26 games. This is 90s Serie a so scoring goals did not come easy and he was a wide forward.
Here is one badly translated piece of an article on his serie A time -
Here is one of the games highlight from that season.
The attempt to portray Nadal as a weak defender are really really desperate. I can try and post the video of Lucio gifting the ball to Owen in a WC quarter final or him being defensively susceptible against Chelsea in 4-2 vs bayern. But those do not make hi a bad defender. Again Nadal is widely regarded as one of the best Barcelona defenders of all time. Yes he was a bit slow and he uses his physicality, what do you expect he was a stopper playing as LCB. Here he is paired with Ferrara, who was more of ball playing defender, playing as RCB. I don't see how that is bad, also he is screened with 2 fantastic defensive midfielders and he is also playing a rather deep defensive line (as mentioned in OP) so speed would not come into account. And not to mention his understanding with Zubizarreta. I swear I can make a collection of defensive errors from Vidic and make exactly same points and prove that he is somehow the worst defender of all time.
Cmoon mate. you can see some feedback on the previous page that he was not all that top defender that some may say. He was pushed out of the team in CB by Abelardo (also in the Spain team) and played as midfielder in quite some occasions.
Have you watched him play, honestly? Or just going by feedback?
On the other hand you have a shaky goalkeeper, which was sold to Fulham after his stint with Juve. He is being regarded as a contender for worst eleven in Juventus history and worst buy of Juventus club. Its not like I am making those claims from thin air, they are out there I have posted the links.
Your defender Marcelo is playing like a wing back against one of the fastest player of all time, attacking more than defending. And thats how he has done his whole life, there is no way he is going to change in a defensive behemoth suddenly. Your defense without a doubt is a weak link.
Your defender Marcelo is playing like a wing back against one of the fastest player of all time, attacking more than defending. And thats how he has done his whole life, there is no way he is going to change in a defensive behemoth suddenly. Your defense without a doubt is a weak link.
Mate, I have watched him plenty and never for once I thought that I would have to defend him against being a weak link in this Draft. And what feedback ? going from last few neutral posts, I think you are pretty much the only one who thinks he was a weak defender.
And you have Brian Laudrup who has been called flop at Bayern, and played 2 and a half season in the BuLi if we are to play this game.
(quotes and sources were on the last page even from Laudrup himself).
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Well I have also and he's not that great of a defender, he compensated with other qualities.
and I agree with that 100%.
Impressed with both teams. Enigma and Snow's is very well crafted, while Tuppet has done a great job drafting here - some very tasty picks and fantastic flanks.
I can actually see Modric having to play as a sort of wing back having to cover for Marcelo all the time, which would decrease his abilities on midfield. Here is the analysis on Brazil's 7-1 thrashing from zonalmarking.com
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2014/07/09/germany-7-1-brazil-germany-record-a-historic-thrashing/
Germany attack into Brazil’s left-back zone
In such a stunningly convincing victory, it seems strange to highlight one zone where Germany were superior. Everything went right for them, everything went wrong for Brazil – there wasn’t one single aspect where the hosts even competed, let alone were better.
Nevertheless, it’s easy to pinpoint Germany’s main area of dominance – down their right, in Brazil’s left-back zone. For the first half hour, the number of times Germany broke in behind Marcelo was extraordinary, and equally ridiculous was the fact Marcelo didn’t the hint, remain in his position for a few minutes, and allow Brazil to get a foothold in the game. Instead, he kept motoring forward, and the German attacks kept on coming.
There were so many examples in the first half, that it’s worth going through them one-by-one…
At 3:17, Marcelo moves forward into the opposition half to close down Thomas Muller, but falls asleep when Germany win a throw. The left-back is caught badly out of position, and Sami Khedira sees the space, sprints into it, and Muller throws him the ball for a quick counter-attack.
Khedira plays in Miroslav Klose, and Germany have their first opportunity to break in behind because Muller has sprinted past Marcelo – who has fallen asleep for a second time in the same move – but Klose’s touch is poor, and the pass doesn’t come. Muller screams at Klose, frustrated he’s been denied a golden opportunity to break the deadlock, but he would have further opportunities. This was Brazil’s first warning sign, and this area of the pitch decided the game.
At 6:50, Marcelo is caught obscenely out of position as Brazil lose possession in midfield, and while Luiz Gustavo is attempting to cover, Muller has remained high up the pitch on the right flank, ready to break in behind. Khedira knocks the ball out to Muller, who has space to cross to the far post. He picks out Mesut Ozil, who unselfishly cuts the ball back to Khedira. His goalbound shot hits Toni Kroos.
At 9:35, Marcelo receives a short pass from Hulk inside the final third, tries a stepover and pass, but concedes possession and allows Khedira and Muller to break into space. Gustavo again tries to cover but is outmuscled by Khedira, and Marcelo actually recovers very impressively, sprinting back to tackle first Muller, then Khedira, atoning for his own error. Still, he raises his hand to apologise to his teammates, recognising how mistake.
As it happens, Germany took the lead from the resulting corner – Muller was unmarked after Germany blocked off his marker, David Luiz.
At 13:22, Muller tries to play a one-two with Khedira, but Marcelo blocks him and concedes a free-kick.
At 16:40, Marcelo’s attacking play resulted in one of Brazil’s best moments, where he and Hulk combined. Marcelo races in behind Philipp Lahm – but the German captain produces a superb sliding tackle inside the box.
At 18:35, Marcelo plays a ball forward into attack, which is intercepted by Jerome Boateng. Marcelo had continued his forward run, so Muller is yet again unmarked on the right. Kroos switches the play to that side, but the ball is overhit and Muller has to scramble to keep it in.
At 21:30, Marcelo again darts forward in advance of the ball, but the move breaks down. Yet again, Muller is breaking in behind the half-covering Gustavo, and his near post cross is cut out.
At 21:50, Lahm starts becoming involved in an attacking sense, and Hulk’s defensive deficiencies become clear. From a throw-in, he and Muller combine on the right. Then, Lahm moves the ball inside to Kroos, and Muller runs inside Marcelo and tees up Klose for the second goal.
At 23:45, Ozil sees all the fun his teammates are having on the right, so drifts to that flank, further overloading Brazil. He combines with the overlapping Lahm, whose cut-back finds a Muller mis-hit, and the ball runs through to Kroos at the far post, who makes it 3-0.
By this point, other problems were taking over. The pattern of Germany’s final third passes before the 30min mark, and after that point, are very different – the right-sided bias is less obvious.
http://www.zonalmarking.net/2014/07/09/germany-7-1-brazil-germany-record-a-historic-thrashing/
Aleix Vidal turned Marcelo around easily en route to setting up Sevilla's second.
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Marcelo's poor discretion can swing a game, like it did against Celta de Vigo.
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So what do we know about Marcelo? He's a lovable goofball. He's a dynamic playmaker. And he's a liability in defense. Most of his defensive problems are self-imposed, and if José Mourinho and Carlo Ancelotti can't get him to be more positionally disciplined, well, I don't think anyone can.
Marcelo's poor discretion can swing a game, like it did against Celta de Vigo.
So what do we know about Marcelo? He's a lovable goofball. He's a dynamic playmaker. And he's a liability in defense. Most of his defensive problems are self-imposed, and if José Mourinho and Carlo Ancelotti can't get him to be more positionally disciplined, well, I don't think anyone can.
As I said if we're to play that game I can find a lot of sources claiming R.Carlos was not that good of a defender(not saying I agree with everything but trying to have a go only on Marcelo and VdS is kinda desperate):
Again you can open some random(neutral) boards and you have the same on Carlos when he was playing and under the spotlight.
Is your game plan for this match solely on pinpointing Marcelo and having a go at VDS who conceded the least amount of goals compared to any keeper for 2 years in Seria A?
Again you can open some random(neutral) boards and you have the same on Carlos when he was playing and under the spotlight.
Is your game plan for this match solely on pinpointing Marcelo and having a go at VDS who conceded the least amount of goals compared to any keeper for 2 years in Seria A?
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That actually is my game plan, you keep on getting Roberto Carlos in the picture, I keep on asking the same question, who is he facing ? Roberto Carlos is actually free to do the attacking, there is no significant wide threat on his wing anyway. What Marcelo is facing is a wide forward of highest quality in Caniggia. My team is actually set up to exploit the weakness that is Marcelo, yours is not. I have given evidence after evidence of Marcelo's horrendous defensive record. I have no reason to believe he would be able to hold off Caniggia + Zanetti and he would drag Modric a lot to cover for him. As for Van der sar I am again saying that I am not making this stuff up, not like I edited the goal.com page, he is widely regarded as a failure for his time in Juve. Teams don't send their goalkeepers for eye test if they are performing well.
So Marcelo defensive record is horrific and Nadal is not? CB at Barcelona team that ships 50+ goals in the course of the season? Up against Vialli, Villa and Kaka?
I think we got your point on Marcelo and I've made mine on Nadal. To me is worse to have central liability in CB rather than full back essentially when you have only Voller in the box. Caniggia will beat Marcelo, ok then what? He'll be up against Helmer and look up to pass to Riquelme when we have Conte, Lucio there as well? How would you utilize that left flank? Cross the ball? Cut inside?
If Nadal loses his man or he's left for dead by either Kaka, Vialli or Villa, that would result a certain goal. Look at the stats those forwards have and tell me which liability is worse.
I also have the reports on Laudrup considered as a flop in his time at Bayern. You have also Balu's opinion he never performed to the heights he did with Danemark. Then Caniggia? Didn't he flop at Roma and also caught guilty with drug charges?
Since VdS was weak, why hasn't he been replaced as a #1 GK during those two seasons? How come he has the best GK record in those 2 years?
If you don't think Villa, Vialli and Kaka can't exploit slow Nadal at CB there's no reason to continue go back and forth in circles...
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read the whole thread but i just cant decide.....its a really close one but im leaning towards the team with Kaka, think the game is going to be decided with one piece of brilliance and taking everything in mind the man who will decide it is Kaka. But not going to vote yet, keep debating 
Again you are pretty much the only one who is thinking Nadal is any sort of defensive liability -
Also I have mentioned this in my tactics that he is playing in a deep defensive line so he would not be exploited against Kaka's searing pace. I have put evidence of how good Laudrup was in his Bundesliga days. I don't really know what else to say. As for Caniggia,yeah it happened in Roma, while I am clearly using his peak at Atlanta.
Edit: And no Nadal's record is not horrific or anywhere close to as horrific as Marcelo's is. I mean I just posted the break down of his performance in probably the biggest game of his life.
I can see where the discussion is going as you have relied all your efforts on doubling Marcelo on the flank which means trying to have a go at him defensively due to the lack of creativity in CM and Riquelme needing a lot of service to excel. That would lead your only passage to goal getting the ball to the flanks, which will isolate Riquelme and his role that you have set up your midfield as a stage to excel.
What is the gameplan in attack exactly get the ball to the flank and cross or cut in? Maybe our team will kinda figure that out in the tenth attempt to do so. I can see zero creativity coming in from behind Riquelme and Conte is the perfect foil to Riquelme.
On the other hand our team has plenty of creativity in the middle, ability to drift outside and some excellent top strikers that combined have like 500 goals for club and country. Apart from Voller who is the other definite goal threat in your team?
How will that left flank be exploited exactly, cause I can see how our strikers can surely decide the match.
Also Tuppet's set up is based on counter attack, hence he concedes possession, what happens if we score first? He'll need to push up and with the attackers that we have I can see us killing the game very quickly.
What is the gameplan in attack exactly get the ball to the flank and cross or cut in? Maybe our team will kinda figure that out in the tenth attempt to do so. I can see zero creativity coming in from behind Riquelme and Conte is the perfect foil to Riquelme.
On the other hand our team has plenty of creativity in the middle, ability to drift outside and some excellent top strikers that combined have like 500 goals for club and country. Apart from Voller who is the other definite goal threat in your team?
How will that left flank be exploited exactly, cause I can see how our strikers can surely decide the match.
Also Tuppet's set up is based on counter attack, hence he concedes possession, what happens if we score first? He'll need to push up and with the attackers that we have I can see us killing the game very quickly.
Conveniently missing chester's post few posts above?
And I've put another source where he's claimed to be a flop. You also have Balu that confirmed that his level at the EURO's was far from what he was at Bayern.
Caniggia flopped at the bigger stage. He was tried on both wings, up top and later he lost his place.
Let's compare the main attacking options we have in the respective leagues:
Team Tuppet:
Voller:
232 games - 132 goals.
Caniggia:
121 games - 31 goals
B.Laudrup
87 games - 17 goals(played as SS)
Riquelme:
136 games - 40 goals
Total league: 576 games/220 goals(with Voller more than 50% of that)
Team Enigma/Snow:
Villa:
352 games - 185 goals
Vialli:
325 games - 123 goals
Kaka:
223 games - 77 goals
Total league: 900 games/385 goals. With a pretty nice distribution between the three of them.
Again pretty much disagree with all of it. I could have stacked 3 strikers (Tevez and Trezgol went without picking) and claim that my players have 500 goals but thats not how it works at all. I have also addressed the issue of creativity in my OP, One with Riquelem free from defensive duties and your central midfielders occupied in wide areas, I without a doubt believe that he would definitely create chances against Conte. He was not pinned down by even the best DMs of his time, I just posted the video of his performance against Makelele.
Also yeah I am playing on counter and relying on cutting in and crossing, its hardly a revolutionary tactic on my part. Its a pretty deadly and proven system especially when your forwards are as good as Laudrup, Voller and Caniggia and the player supporting them are Zanetti and R. Carlos. The left flank would be exploited by Caniggia running past marcelo and then he has options like -
What source was that ? You quoted him saying if I don't play well I am a flop ? thats your source. Cause Kicker ratings are considered pretty definitive and I just posted him being one of the top 10 attackers in Bundesliga. I just answered this in my last post. I mean seriously counting goals because you have more strikers thats just I don't know man if voters are swayed by them then my approach is clearly flawed and more power to you. I also did not omitted Chester's post on purpose, I don't think he said anywhere that Nadal is a defensive liabilty, he said he is not a top top defender and that obviously depends on what he consider a top top defender.
As Mike Tyson would say, everyone has a plan until he's punched in the face. What happens if we score first and switch to more casual approach? Hoof it to Voller? And let's not pretend we don't have the creativity and attackers to score first in this game.
This is just making stuff up, you having anything to back this claim? because I remember him shining at the biggest stages in World cups and Copa America.
I never said you don't have quality and I never made any stuff up on your front line. I think they are brilliant and I've tried to contain them as much as possible. If they score first we'll try to attack more, we already attacking in numbers on wings, we'll keep on doing that. What if I score first and shut up the shop completely with 2 defensive midfielders and a brilliant defense.
http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/34165988
^^ bbc as your source.
He recalls: "In Bild Zeitung, the big newspaper, every time I didn't play well I was a six million flop and when I played well it was, 'Well, this is what you expect for that kind of money.' I couldn't win."
Bild Zeitung is the paper that claimed that. You also have Balu's feedback.
again trying to twist some words or?
But he was not a top defender – nowhere near it.
that's far from what you imply above.
And I have watched him a lot, and I mean a lot. Stoichkov was playing there and as compatriot naturally I had the chance to follow that side. Nadal was not a top defender the way you are trying to imply here. He had many issues in his game and there were better defenders than him in both the Barca team. I don't know if it is somehow romantic or due to the longevity he has had in his career he's cited as a top defender.
No one is talking about Copa or World cup, that's irrelevant in the terms of the draft. The biggest stage in Seria A was in his move to Roma, where it's pretty much safe to say he flopped. And I really mean he flopped. Not even in the sense of Laudrup time at Bayern. Caniggia at Roma played handful of matches and was caught with drugs at that time, also feeling unhappy after things didn't work for him and so forth.
If you try to present his time at Roma as success, please be my guest, I'm happy to see your views.
Dude I don't get it, what is it that you are claiming, he said if I don't play well I am a flop if I play well I am fine. What am I missing ? how does that make him a bad player ?
Also I am not twisting Chester's words, he said he is not a top defender, which obviously depends on who he consider a top defender ? But where is he saying that Nadal is a defensive liability ?
I said again and again I am using his peak in Atlanta ? why is that hard to get ?
Yet another article on Marcelo's defensive nous - http://everydayiszlatanday.com/2014/07/10/germany-7-brazil-1-in-defense-of-david-luiz-kind-of/
Alright lets not devolve into a bitch fighting here, I think I made my point on Marcelo, Caniggia, Nadal, Laudrup and Van der sar pretty clear. Lets see how voters rate them.
Again, not saying he's a bad player, I'm citing his own words and how others viewed him at the time. You had Bild saying he's a flop, what's hard to understand? Obviously he was nowhere near his top form at the time.
When he's far from a top defender, doesn't that make him a liability?
We can argue semantics, but at least Marcelo always puts an effort when he's beaten, Nadal being skinned and jogging back up was pretty normal sight in his time.
I think you misunderstand his comment. It was more a sarcastic remark about how the media treated him, not how he himself judged his own performances.
Well you asked me for the biggest stage, so Roma was bigger club than Atalanta(not to nitpick but seen it couple of times, the other is a state) and he didn't make it there and was relegated to the bench. There's a fair shout that he was a big fish in a small pond.
And as we're discussing league performance, it's fair to pinpoint his stint at Atalanta no?