I‘m not saying it’s better than Barca. I am saying it is not „ageing“. Ribery and Robben are no longer starters and neither are Bosteng and Müller. The latter is also not old/ageing.
La Liga 2018/19
- Thread starter jojojo
- Start date
I'm making that point not to make a narrative but to counter the people who come here on every Barcelona match day trying to build the narrative that Messi is playing next to a bunch of average players and carrying their squad to trophies.
I'd never call anyone a failure for not performing or win a cup competition in one season. The idea that Barcelona have the best squad in the world and therefore anything that's not winning the Champions League should be considered a failure is wrong, that's not what I intended to say. It's an incredibly tough competition to win, with plenty different factors at play. It's the continuous failure for years now that's worrying.
I've been saying it here for years now, Barcelona's last problem is their squad. They have the players to do it, they don't have the tactics for it. Imo Valverde is the main culprit but I do think it's the exact same thing that happened with Argentina and that for a manager to build a team around a classic number 10 like Messi in modern football makes life extremely difficult for a manager. They funnel the attack through him, there's no dynamic at all, next to no variety in their play, they don't press well...
The same problems just keep happening, this summer I was told Coutinho, Dembele in attack and Vidal and Arthur in midfield would change everything in how their CL season goes but even before it happens doesn't everyone here already know that the Barcelona team is not currently well setup to win the Champions League? They might win it anyway, but isn't it more than obvious that the exact same problems that led to the past few years' disasters are still there?
The reason why I give Messi such a hard time for Barcelona's tactical problems is because he's the whole damn system. That team is completely built around him in a way no other top team is built around a single player. The moment that changes is the moment the best squad in the world will actually play like the best team in the world imo.
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If you don't think Barcelona have the best squad in world football then you do not follow the sport, don't know what else to say to that. City is the only team even remotely near it and you're seriously arguing that not only they aren't the best squad in the world but that they definitely aren't? How many clubs have a better squad than Barcelona in your opinion then?
What about Lewandowski and Neuer? Those guys are the wrong side of 30 and need replacing in a few years. And Mueller still plays and actually starts most games but is a shadow of his former self. Furthermore, Coman and Gnabry although talented, still have a lot to prove. One of them was even considering retirement due to being so heavily plagued by injuries. They are still obviously good enough to be winning bundesliga but on the continental level, they are falling behind the other European heavyweights and have certain question marks in their squad. They are a good team but not as good as previous years IMO.
Wait what? How can anyone not have Barcelona as one of the best squads in Europe? Surely them being the best isn't a controversial opinion? Their forward line is absolutely ridiculous, they've scored almost twice as much as Atletico. The main problem for Barca is Umtiti's injury, they are horrible at the back without him. They are also league leaders and won a tough CL group.
Ter Stegen, Alba, Busquets, Umtiti (injured), Messi and Suarez are all world class. They then have promising talents in Dembele, Malcom and Arthur.
Ter Stegen, Alba, Busquets, Umtiti (injured), Messi and Suarez are all world class. They then have promising talents in Dembele, Malcom and Arthur.
Very well said. There's really something unsettling about the way Barca fans talk about their team on here. It's like they are selling an underdog story that isn't there.
When I read this, I quickly checked and saw Barcelona scored 99 league goals last season. That doesn't strike me as a coach playing dire "atletico type" football. In England that would be record breaking numbers. City who did set the record last season only scored 7 more goals.
Mourinho still holds the record for most goals scored in a single league season in Spain. Is he an attacking coach who promotes attractive football all of a sudden?
Mourinho was absolutely an attacking coach at RMA. I hold his Real Madrid team of the 2011/12 season as the best counter-attacking side of all-time. But the point wasn't about the coach's natural philosophy but about how he has played with his team and the players at his disposal. According to statistics, Valverde has played attacking football with Barcelona.
Of course Valverde plays attacking football. Has done so with Bilbao and Valencia too. The holy Pep and late Cruyff applauded him for his style as well.
This "Valverde = Mourinho" dumshit is another proof of the appaling Barca fanbase which has lost all connection to the real world. You are either Pep's Barca or a busparking Mourinho-esque team. No inbetween. Downgrading from the best midfield duo in modern football to Rakitic of course has nothing to do with a slight downgrad in style.
This "Valverde = Mourinho" dumshit is another proof of the appaling Barca fanbase which has lost all connection to the real world. You are either Pep's Barca or a busparking Mourinho-esque team. No inbetween. Downgrading from the best midfield duo in modern football to Rakitic of course has nothing to do with a slight downgrad in style.
Of course Valverde plays attacking football. Has done so with Bilbao and Valencia too. The holy Pep and late Cruyff applauded him for his style as well.
This "Valverde = Mourinho" dumshit is another proof of the appaling Barca fanbase which has lost all connection to the real world. You are either Pep's Barca or a busparking Mourinho-esque team. No inbetween. Downgrading from the best midfield duo in modern football to Rakitic of course has nothing to do with a slight downgrad in style.
Wrong
A 4-4-2 last season made it one of the most defensive Barca sides in recent memory. They had occasional games with big scorelines but they absolutely played dire football.
I’ve seen every single Barca game last season and it was absolutely painful to watch. Zero counter attacking ability and an incredobly slow tempo. Barca only came alive when their backs were to the wall such as the second leg of the Chelsea match. Valverde is too pragmatic. He is better suited to a more defensive team.
The 99 Goals is amongst the bottom two for total goals scored in La Liga for Barca this entire decade (!)
I think he's actually doing a better job this year than last, in regards to attacking football, but last year's Barca team was beyond dire.
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Of course Valverde plays attacking football. Has done so with Bilbao and Valencia too. The holy Pep and late Cruyff applauded him for his style as well.
This "Valverde = Mourinho" dumshit is another proof of the appaling Barca fanbase which has lost all connection to the real world. You are either Pep's Barca or a busparking Mourinho-esque team. No inbetween. Downgrading from the best midfield duo in modern football to Rakitic of course has nothing to do with a slight downgrad in style.
Nowhere did i compare him to Mourinho, I just stated that goals scored don't necessarily indicate an attractive attacking style of play. There is a feeling among a decent part of Barcelona's fan base that they are not playing to their full attacking potential, and watching a large majority of their games, I tend to agree. Labeling everyone who holds that opinion as crazy is hardly the best way to argue that particular point.
As for Rakitic, he is the one who keeps fielding him 99% of the time.
If anything last season showed that Valverde knows tactics. He went 4-4-2 for obvious reasons. In Enrique's last season Messi did not play on the right anymore and Alves, who could hold the entire flank on his own, left. That left Barca with Messi strolling in the middle and Sergi Roberto all alone on the right. Only way to fix it was 4-4-2 with Messi and Suarez up top + 4 midfielders keeping it tight. Made even more sense with Neymar gone.
No pace on the counter was hardly Valverde's fault. Squad is what it is. Suarez is slow, Messi is only quick on the first few steps, Dembélé was injured most of the time and missing training sessions.
He did a great job last season when everyone predicted Neymar leaving was going to end Barca.
Yes, and I've seen that argument before and it's still wrong. Mourinho is a defensive coach in general but his 11/12 Madrid side wrecked havoc on the counter like no other side with Özil, Di Maria, Ronaldo and Benzema upfront in their mid 20s + quick long balls from Xabi Alonso. If that Madrid side was "not attractive" then no side in the world apart from Pep's Barca was ever entertaining, certainly no United side. Which brings us back to my point about Barca fans and their insane views about football.
Valverde is defensive for Barcelona standards. Generally speaking he's not particularly defense oriented. Barcelona have 60 goals in the league as of now, the second best attack has 37.
If Barcelona had Mourinho, Conte, Allegri or Simeone as managers their fans would go mad.
If Barcelona had Mourinho, Conte, Allegri or Simeone as managers their fans would go mad.
Don't be condescending now.
I follow the sport. Their squad is always overrated by you to diminish Messi, and you underrate Real Madrid's team to overrate Ronaldo.
I think PSG, Real Madrid, and Juventus arguably have better squads than Barcelona.
Those teams really don’t. I cant see from what objective angle they do apart from possibly Madrid. You underrate Barca’s squad to overrate Messi.
But if you say that you don't follow the sport.
Messi a classic number 10? Jeez, now I heard everything.
Your whole narrative is just so flawed. I mean, last season you were constantly arguing how important Ronaldo was for that Madrid side that won the "three peat" (god I hate that phrase) and according to you that was a strong indication of his superiority. The fact that Real went into complete meltdown after he left even supports your case. If anything Madrid's underwhelming performance this year is a testament to how heavily they designed their approach to Ronaldo as the final station of the vast majority of their attacking patterns. Yet you still have the audacity to criticize Messi for being too important for Barca.
Let that slip. You criticize a player for being too important. And now you are suggesting that the player whom the by far most inventive coach in modern football history tirelessly calls the best in history and who was the focal point of the most revolutionary team of the last 30 years is actually a classic number 10 that forces his team to play a old-fashioned style of football.
Man, you are so obsessed it is incredible. You wrap it in words which somehow appear to be at least a little bit reasonable at first glance but at times it is really worth it to reflect what you are actually arguing. You bend arguments until being good for your team is somwhow a bad thing to do. Damn, if you have one talent it is to let even the most ridiculous things to say seem plausible if you just quickly read through.
The lengths you go to in order to make your idol look better are beyond imagination. You'd probably pick up the one ring in the shire and go all the way to throw it in mount doom if it meant that the people will change their mind and from then on rate Ronaldo over Messi.
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"relegation bound" Celta Vigo (FootballHQ two weeks ago) up to 11th in live table as they're 1 up at Getafe. 
Bottom half of La Liga is total nuts this season.
Bottom half of La Liga is total nuts this season.
It’s like having the heaviest man in the world calling me fat. We’re arguing about Barcelona and Messi, you make it about Ronaldo since there’s nothing else you can think about.
I don’t criticize Messi for being too important, you literally don’t understand English or football. I criticize them for giving him more importance than he should have. That is not the same thing. Please learn how to interpret a sentence.
Ronaldo at Madrid never had the team built around him the same way Messi does. He was a key part of the system, not the whole system. Ronaldo adapted to his teammates, at Barcelona its the team that has to adapt to Messi. Messi is always the same regardless of who else is playing, Ronaldo isn’t. Just have to watch how different he’s playing with Juve depending on who’s on the pitch and how different he’s playing compared to the past few years at Madrid. It’s nothing new either, with Portugal it’s always been that way.
We’ve argued this about 100 different times and you tell me I’m arguing exactly the opposite of what I’m arguing... Ronaldo was incredibly important to Madrid’s CL success, that does not mean he was the one influencing the way they played though... a common factor for years now in their teams is that a team with Ronaldo plays to the strengths of the other players so they can get the best out of them knowing Ronaldo can adapt to it, a team with Messi plays to his strengths alone and either buys the right profile of player in the transfer market to fit into that or the squad as a whole ends up underperforming. The one time in the past few years that this hasn’t happened Barcelona won the treble.
A team with Ronaldo has a plan A, a plan B, a plan C, etc. due to his versatility. A team with Messi has a great plan A and no adaptability when an opponent in similar quality figures it out. It’s like I said, the Champions League knockouts haven’t even happened yet and the results may go all kinds of different ways but even to you isn’t it beyond obvious that the exact same problems are still there? Nothing has changed. Barcelona (and Argentina) have a systematic tactical problem, not a problem of lack of squad quality.
And before you say it, no, I’m not blaming Messi for it 100%. The manager is at fault way more than anyone elss, but it is true that having Messi at the center of the team creates a lot of balance issues that make Valverde’s life harder from a tactical standpoint. Obviously tactics won’t matter at all if individual talent ends up masking it though and if Barcelona want to win the Champions League that’s what’s going to have to happen while Valverde is there and their way of playing remains the same.
This isn’t just about Messi btw. Football has evolved in a way that does not favour the type of player Messi is regardless of their talent due to the tactical problems they create in the team in terms of balance. James, Ozil, Dybala, Coutinho, Isco... these players are some of the most talented players in the world but they’re luxury players in modern football. They only work tactically in the right set of circumstances and they’re only worth that trouble when they’re producing offensively.
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But why give him a hard time for that when he isn't the one asking for the team to be built around him?. He was the first one to tell Suarez to go back to his striker position in the middle of the game for the sake of the team, he shared the creativity with Neymar in his last season, he also tried to acommodate his play to Dembelé.
It just seems like giving him a hard time because you want to, of course Valverde comes and uses a 442 where Messi is the star, is the easy way, the lazy way.
Valverde got exposed in the away leg vs Roma harder than any manager I remember, at least on the tactical side, Roura is the only one I remember being dismantled so bad (legs vs Bayern, PSG and Real madrid in 2013) but he wasn't really a first tier manager, he was just an analist/assistant with 0 experience as main coach in any level.
Our counter speed past season... you don't really need 3 bullets to run a counter, Simeone plays that way with success, he has just a strong lone striker (prime Diego Costa/Mandzu have never been better than any Suarez version at Barcelona) and flooding the area with CM's. With Alba and Semedo on the wings, Suarez fixing defenders and great 2nd line players like Messi, Rakitic or Paulinho behind them, playing a good, effective counter style was possible.
Messi still has legs to run counters, and even when he loses that, he still has the vision and the range to be the architect in counters, Guti stopped looking like a fast player when he was 22 y/o, he's still one of the most exciting counter players I've seen.
Valverde never tried that, because if you put countes on top of his defense-first mentality he's gone by December, you can do one or the other in Barcelona, but not the two at the same time.
Edit: What you point about Luis Enrique, Lucho knew that and tried to work around it with the 3-4-3
https://www.barcablaugranes.com/201...-did-it-work-for-fc-barcelona-atletico-madrid
Problems? Alba was left out as a LM, we lacked a good 3rd CB choice as only Mathieu and Mascherano were the options, Umtiti was green and our midfield was even worse than this year or the past one. I'm sure that if Luis Enrique could work from preseason with a 3-4-3 consisting of Ter-Stegen, Pique, Umtiti, Lenglet, Sergi Roberto, Busquets, Alba, Rakitic, Dembele, Suarez and Messi, with Coutinho, Arthur, Vidal and semedo as options on the bench he'd probably perform better than Valverde in the 3 competitions
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Wasn’t that Vilanova who was in charge for the Bayern & PSG games in 12/13? That roura was only assistant/caretaker in between?
Vilanova was getting treatment for cancer in NY for the majority of the second half of 2012/13 IIRC.
Vilanova came back April 2nd, by that time the 1st leg vs PSG was played (we got destroyed that day and were lucky they didn't score a bunch), the Real Madrid leg too iirc and Vilanova only had a bunch of days to prepare the Bayern leg, not enough to repair the mess we were.
Marcelo back to the bench
Getafe beat Celta Vigo 3-1. 1 point off the CL spots
Vamos Atleti
I love the antics these Spanish fans get up to. Toy rats being tossed at Curtois
There it is.
Who the hell is this Geordie commentator on Bein sports? Muted
Cool as you like from Griezmann
Great ball through.
Such a cool finish
No way is that a clear and obvious error.. Isn't that the rule? or are even close calls overturned?
Griezmann is simply ridiculous, such an incredible player.
Atmosphere in this game is amazing.
Vinicius is too weak
He has cost Real this half
He has cost Real this half