Haha, very good mate. So Cesc's response to this tiki taka that he didn't like (and knew fine well they played having no doubt watched them for years AND came through their set up) was to hide like a coward when the going got tough? He wasn't worth the money they paid for him, he didn't do what he was expected to do, end of story.
La Liga - 2014/15
- Thread starter jojojo
- Start date
Haha, very good mate. So Cesc's response to this tiki taka that he didn't like (and knew fine well they played having no doubt watched them for years AND came through their set up) was to hide like a coward when the going got tough? He wasn't worth the money they paid for him, he didn't do what he was expected to do, end of story.
So it's 3-0 (Piatti and Feghouli x2) for Valência at half time. This probable win will close the gap with Sevilla for the 4th. Interesting match so far.
You can turn that around just as easily. Barcelona signed Fabregas (after presumably watching for years) and expected him play in a completely different way to what earned him the move in the first place. If Fabregas was deemed to be hiding then I'd hate to think what your opinion of Xavi and Iniesta was. Fact is Fabregas would have been their best CM had they used him in the right way. They didn't. Now they are stuck with their insipid midfield while Chelsea prosper. Torres comparison was hilariously bad, I'll give you that.
Rakitić started really well but he's been poor since the first PSG game. One thing I wouldn't criticise him for is his defensive work though, he's been working really hard in that area over the season.
As for Cesc, he was a direct threat indeed, but against packed, deep defences like today? Not so much. He struggled to make those passes he's so good at on the counter when teams gave him no room to play them in behind.
You'd think a player of his ability could cope a bit better than he did. But when you shit yourself no amount of technical ability will save you. Flop.
Ps it was nice to see that even against a significantly poorer United side than he'd faced with Arsenal, Cesc still shat himself and went into his shell at Old Trafford. Suppose some things never change
Fabregas wouldn't have made any difference today.
You don't think having a spare prick cowering away in the corner of the midfield would have helped them?!
me neither tbh
Sooo... Barca drop another 2 points? Delighted.
So some noticeable trends with Barça this season in the league... Firstly, very poor, lethargic performances in away games accompanied by mediocre results. Their away record reads 8 played, 5 won, 2 drawn, 1 lost (which in itself is still pretty good, but clearly a case of performances undeserving of such results). The loss was to RM (1-3), then 2x 0-0 v Málaga and Getafe. Three of the wins were by a 1-goal margin (very late winning goals needed each time as well) and the other a 2-0 at Vallecas and a 5-0 thumping of Levante who were down to 10 men after the 1st goal.
Second trend, they have a real problem scoring early in games. Less than a third of their goals (11/36) have come in the first half, only 3 (!!) in the first half hour... the same amount RM have scored in the first five minutes of games.
I don't think Lucho is cut out for a job of this magnitude (at this point in time anyway), but it's certainly not all down to him. The only real issues I would see there are the way he wants his MF to set up (stretched to cover the fullbacks) which leads to a massive over-reliance of creativity on the forwards, which basically amounts to Messi, and a lack of combination play to open up the centre, plus he seems to rotate his DF & MF quite often but at strange intervals (seemingly can't decide who his starters are going to be either). Issues that stand apart from the manager are to do with the relative physical declines of Xavi and Messi in my opinion. Iniesta is a riddle, apart from perhaps psychological issues, there is really no indicator as to why his performance level has regressed so much in such a short amount of time (from probably his best ever individual season, 11/12, to two of his worst, 12/13 & 13/14). Neymar has done very well to show his clinical touch, but he brings very little constructiveness to the build-up. Suárez is still too early to tell, but I'm convinced of one thing already, he isn't at his best as a 9 (unless it's in a counter-attacking side). At Ajax he played with Huntelaar in his first season, then Huntelaar/Cvitanich, then Pantelic and finally with El Hamdaoui. At Liverpool in his first full season there was Carroll and after that Sturridge acting as 9s. The only exception is for Uruguay where he has led the line in exemplary fashion, but then there is a clear and obvious break in approach between Ajax/Liverpool/Barça and Uruguay, ie. the former use a high-line, possession based game (Liverpool under Rodgers anyway), the latter rely on defending deep and verticality in transition phase. In the former type structures he's clearly at his maximum level as a second striker. Evident from the way he has consistently attempted to roll his marker whenever he receives the ball with his back to goal around the edge of the area, but keeps getting caught out because there is so little space to work with when playing for Barça. He's at his most dangerous when he can receive the ball to feet first time before his marker has a chance to set himself, which is the total opposite of what Barça do. Yesterday, Emiliano Velázquez (his promising 20yo compatriot on loan from Atléti) had him in his pocket because of it. The positives with him have come from chance creation, yet again yesterday (in an otherwise poor display of technical ability) he pulled an inch-perfect cross from nowhere, putting it on a plate for Pedro to tap home, but the latter somehow failed to connect.
Second trend, they have a real problem scoring early in games. Less than a third of their goals (11/36) have come in the first half, only 3 (!!) in the first half hour... the same amount RM have scored in the first five minutes of games.
I don't think Lucho is cut out for a job of this magnitude (at this point in time anyway), but it's certainly not all down to him. The only real issues I would see there are the way he wants his MF to set up (stretched to cover the fullbacks) which leads to a massive over-reliance of creativity on the forwards, which basically amounts to Messi, and a lack of combination play to open up the centre, plus he seems to rotate his DF & MF quite often but at strange intervals (seemingly can't decide who his starters are going to be either). Issues that stand apart from the manager are to do with the relative physical declines of Xavi and Messi in my opinion. Iniesta is a riddle, apart from perhaps psychological issues, there is really no indicator as to why his performance level has regressed so much in such a short amount of time (from probably his best ever individual season, 11/12, to two of his worst, 12/13 & 13/14). Neymar has done very well to show his clinical touch, but he brings very little constructiveness to the build-up. Suárez is still too early to tell, but I'm convinced of one thing already, he isn't at his best as a 9 (unless it's in a counter-attacking side). At Ajax he played with Huntelaar in his first season, then Huntelaar/Cvitanich, then Pantelic and finally with El Hamdaoui. At Liverpool in his first full season there was Carroll and after that Sturridge acting as 9s. The only exception is for Uruguay where he has led the line in exemplary fashion, but then there is a clear and obvious break in approach between Ajax/Liverpool/Barça and Uruguay, ie. the former use a high-line, possession based game (Liverpool under Rodgers anyway), the latter rely on defending deep and verticality in transition phase. In the former type structures he's clearly at his maximum level as a second striker. Evident from the way he has consistently attempted to roll his marker whenever he receives the ball with his back to goal around the edge of the area, but keeps getting caught out because there is so little space to work with when playing for Barça. He's at his most dangerous when he can receive the ball to feet first time before his marker has a chance to set himself, which is the total opposite of what Barça do. Yesterday, Emiliano Velázquez (his promising 20yo compatriot on loan from Atléti) had him in his pocket because of it. The positives with him have come from chance creation, yet again yesterday (in an otherwise poor display of technical ability) he pulled an inch-perfect cross from nowhere, putting it on a plate for Pedro to tap home, but the latter somehow failed to connect.
Great start to the 2nd half of Atléti-Villarreal. Mandzukic denied from close range by Asenjo, great set-piece routine to create that chance.
And a minute later, Arda Turan toys with the Yellow Sub's DF and puts in a brilliant cross which Mandzukic heads in... but the goal is ruled out for a foul on Villarreal's Mario! Disgraceful from the ref, barely any contact at all, Mario just goes down when he realizes he's getting beaten to the header.
And a minute later, Arda Turan toys with the Yellow Sub's DF and puts in a brilliant cross which Mandzukic heads in... but the goal is ruled out for a foul on Villarreal's Mario! Disgraceful from the ref, barely any contact at all, Mario just goes down when he realizes he's getting beaten to the header.
Vietto with a wonderful chance to score for Villarreal, first touch escaped him and Moyá makes the crucial intervention... driving force today, creating loads of danger and he's been impressive in most games I've seen, that Vietto kid.
Vietto! What a goal. Brilliant. Classy assist from Moi Gómez as well.
This time he scores 0-1
Lovely move from Villareal there, nearly a second.
Vietto embarrased Godin there.
Vela! Great cross from Chory Castro... Iraizoz unlucky, 1-0 to Moyes' La Real
Two minutes in and Real Sociedad take the lead.
Bad day for Atletico today. Lost at home and Koke + Mandzukic suspended for next game.
Íñigo Martínez misses a free header from six yards out... excellent corner that was.
The problem, Skorenzy, is that its not Suarez or Neymar. Ibra, Sanchez, Henry etc etc, all looked mediocre due to the way Barça is set up. Neymar and Suarez both shine behind a striker, playing in the hole.
Also, the Spanish players like Xavi still haven't understood that keeping posession for so long can be detrimental. Real Madrid allowed Almeria to attack them for long stretches, as a tactic. That payed off as they created chance after chance on the break.
If, for instance, you risk a dribble close to the middle of the pitch, you can lose the ball and the opposition will try to counter attack, pushing bodies forward. You should trust your defense to neutralize such counter-attack,since you have players worth millions, and you are the bigger club. If the defense does so, it will have a number of long direct passes to connect for a counter-counter-attack.
But that is prohibited in Barcelona. You can never go one-on-two or risk plays in certain areas. That is so stupid, that I cannot begin to describe it. This means Barça is always attacking in 3/4ths of the field, in insanely compact spaces. It worked in 2010 when they basically had all-time geniuses in the tight spaces, but they naturally declined, and teams have evolved tactically since those days
Same thing is happening to Spanish NT, they never get easy chances, since they don't risk plays enough to open up the field. It is now very easy for any top team to beat both Barça and Spain.
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The ultimate christmas miracle
http://www.marca.com/en/2014/12/14/...bbdffe5f5a14f0d7e46d97f47d1ec5c0&t=1418588503
Pepe is the only center back in La Liga without a yellow card and only committed 5 fouls during all the season. Amazing.
http://www.marca.com/en/2014/12/14/...bbdffe5f5a14f0d7e46d97f47d1ec5c0&t=1418588503
Pepe is the only center back in La Liga without a yellow card and only committed 5 fouls during all the season. Amazing.
That's beatification material on both counts mate
Well done to him on both accounts.
The ultimate christmas miracle
http://www.marca.com/en/2014/12/14/...bbdffe5f5a14f0d7e46d97f47d1ec5c0&t=1418588503
Pepe is the only center back in La Liga without a yellow card and only committed 5 fouls during all the season. Amazing.
Further proof Real are paying refs off!
Which is what I adressed (they need verticality, the ball into feet first time; I literally stated that Suárez is a second striker as well), but you are conflating different situations here with varying underlying issues. For example Henry's "problem" (I'd say overall he was a success) had nothing to do with how Barça played, more with his own physical decline and even then he fit his role very well in 08/09 and was the side's top scorer in 07/08. Ibra's situation is also completely unrelated, he didn't fit in Guardiola's system eventually, but not for the same reasons as Sánchez or Suárez were/are finding it hard now, because a) opponents didn't defend anywhere near as deep or tight as they've done since 2010/11, and b) he was played centrally as a 9 and failed to have the desired impact apart from some games. Eto'o (08/09), Villa and Pedro (10/11) all worked because they don't need the ball into feet, they probably even prefer it into space but are capable of both. Alexis Sánchez and Pedro were also at their best in a long time last season, unsurprisingly in a more direct system.
Your 3rd and 4th paragraphs are on the money, but you're wrong about what they can and can't risk. It's like Guardiola knew all along, that spine of players is not optimal for "traditional" defending, hence the need for high line, 6-second pressing, possession play in opponent's defensive third... players like Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, etc. do not have the physical capabilities to play a direct, vertical game, so that is where they actually benefit from the compactness. Since then Tata Martino and now Lucho have tried adressing the lethargic play issue by making them bit by bit more direct and vertical anyway, and subsequently Barça have never looked more defensively shaky in the past 6 years than these last two seasons.
From what I've seen so far I don't know whether Neymar-Suárez-Messi could work... Maybe it's down to something else, but Neymar was a lot more influential in games before Suárez returned from his suspension. What is certain is that there is a clear need for creativity and directness in MF, ironically the player they sold to Chelsea might have provided that, but with Lucho's preference for having his MFs just there to cover the full-backs it might've also made no difference at all.
The thing is, Barça has loads of cash. If they are not capable of pressing that well, they should buy players who can defend in 3/4ths and just give up on two of Busquets, Xavi or Iniesta.
The way I would do things is try to adapt the back line to defend deeper, which is hard after years of playing in such a way. I would just give up on La Liga, since its practically lost, and use it for experimenting these line-ups for Champions league. If they can emulate Sabella's solid Argentina (4-3-1-2) which gives Suarez, Neymar and Messi loads of freedom, defend tight and deeper, they have a decent shot at the European title, which would be more than enough to compensate the Liga loss.
For that system to work, maybe they'd have to sacrifice Xavi/Iniesta. I'd go Masche-Rakitic-Busquets on the midfield 3. On the backline, certainly bench Dani Alves, and maybe use Montoya and Mathieu at fullback to discipline the line to play the offside closer to their box. Hey, Guardiola had no problems doing drastic things when Barça was clearly accomodated, like booting Dinho, why not do that now?
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Matchday 16 - 20 Dec
The final Liga weekend of the year. The players get a week off now and return on 3/4 January. We already know that Real Madrid are top for Christmas - even though their match with Sevilla won't happen until the new year.
Tonight (from the BBC so all times are UK)
Celta de Vigo v Almería 19:45
Sat 20 Dec 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Barcelona v Córdoba 15:00
Levante v Real Sociedad 17:00
Eibar v Valencia 19:00
Rayo Vallecano v Espanyol 21:00
Sun 21 Dec 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Villarreal v Deportivo de La Coruña 11:00
Granada CF v Getafe 16:00
Elche v Málaga 18:00
Athletic v Atletico Madrid 20:00
Barcelona and Atletico dropped points last week and won't want to slip back further. Neymar and (probably) Alves are out injured but Barcelona looks like a straightforward home win.
Atletico on the other hand have a real job ahead of them away to Athletic. Athletic started the season badly and their form has been all over the place since then, but they usually wake up for a home game against a Madrid club. Meanwhile, Koke and Mandzukic are out for Atletico and Iturraspe and Laporte are out for Athletic - all suspended. We shall see.
Tonight (from the BBC so all times are UK)
Celta de Vigo v Almería 19:45
Sat 20 Dec 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Barcelona v Córdoba 15:00
Levante v Real Sociedad 17:00
Eibar v Valencia 19:00
Rayo Vallecano v Espanyol 21:00
Sun 21 Dec 2014 - Spanish La Liga
Villarreal v Deportivo de La Coruña 11:00
Granada CF v Getafe 16:00
Elche v Málaga 18:00
Athletic v Atletico Madrid 20:00
Barcelona and Atletico dropped points last week and won't want to slip back further. Neymar and (probably) Alves are out injured but Barcelona looks like a straightforward home win.
Atletico on the other hand have a real job ahead of them away to Athletic. Athletic started the season badly and their form has been all over the place since then, but they usually wake up for a home game against a Madrid club. Meanwhile, Koke and Mandzukic are out for Atletico and Iturraspe and Laporte are out for Athletic - all suspended. We shall see.
Who would play centerback? Sounds like a great system for them, but basically that means Mathieu who is their best CB - despite being a converted fullback, crazy! - is at fullback. They don't have Vermaelen either.
Neymar has been given the all clear, no? That's what I heard earlier at least.
Abidal has retired by the way, on a slightly related note.
Neymar trained, but I don't think he's ready to play.
Abidal's always seemed like one of the good guys. It was great to see him come back. I hope he has a happy healthy retirement (or next job).
He will take a position in the club. Good to see, one of my all time favourite Barca players.
Edit: Neymar was given the green light to play.
I have been wondering the same thing, he seems very much like a passenger so far.
He may need some time to adapt. People were questioning his fellow countryman Modric at Madrid during his first season (he didn't really seem to fit into the team at all) and in his second season he improved so much and played at a far higher level and not only fit into our midfield but became our best and most influential midfield player. Isco too is playing much better this year and understands his role more and has been one of our best players this season.
Yes, you're spot on, time is needed (at the very least one season) before fully judging the player.
I don't think Rakitic will ever do anything that Cesc couldn't have done. I just think that Rakitic will be given more time to prove himself as he's seen as a foreigner to Barca's system whereas with Cesc it was almost ignore that he moved at 16 and that because he played with Barca up the age of 16 that he should be a perfect fit for their system.
Why are Sky not showing the Sociedad game? They're just talking??
Not allowed to show live football between 2.45pm and 5.15pm on a Saturday. Stupid, out of date broadcasting laws.
What?? I thought that was just for games in the UK. What a silly law.