La Liga - 2012/2013

Sarni said:
Fair enough. Barcelona would have gladly kept him if it weren't for the money. They weren't allowed to offer him a professional contract until he turned 18 while Arsenal offered him a contract when he was just 16, am I right?
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Yeah, could only offer him a youth contract, not a full contract... so lower pay, and as I recall, he also thought the prospect of first-team action looked better at Arsenal (obviously turned out to be true).

I don't think "Made in La Masia" is meant to be taken too literally. Like "Made in the US" means "Made in Taiwan", and "Made in Germany" means "Made in Taiwan". At least I hope they don't mean it too literally, but you never know with Sport/EMD.
 
FCBarca said:
I admit only that the player developed at Arsenal but to paint some picture of Wenger unearthing some hidden gem that Barcelona were unaware of or that he wasn't already ascending into a world class player is a narrative that Gooner nation would love to be true when deep down they know this to be fiction...Repeating the same false story over & over again, does not make it a fact
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Hindsight.
If you guys knew, why did you let Fabregas go then?

Why has he been the only such case of losing a player due to youth contract, and turning into a world class player?

It is simple fact that Barcelona were unaware of his potential to be a world class player and realized they made a mistake as soon as he earned a place in Arsenal's first team.
 
Trionz said:
Hindsight.
If you guys knew, why did you let Fabregas go then?

Why has he been the only such case of losing a player due to youth contract, and turning into a world class player?

It is simple fact that Barcelona were unaware of his potential to be a world class player and realized they made a mistake as soon as he earned a place in Arsenal's first team.
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What? That's bollocks.

It's a simple case that Arsenal were able to offer him professional terms and thus more money two years before Barcelona could. He also felt he'd get more playing time in a much weaker Arsenal team. He was right.
 
Count Orduck said:
What? That's bollocks.

It's a simple case that Arsenal were able to offer him professional terms and thus more money two years before Barcelona could. He also felt he'd get more playing time in a much weaker Arsenal team. He was right.
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If that's the case.
How come players like Thiago Alcantara, Jonathan Dos Santos and others not swooped in yet?

The simple fact is above players were appreciated of their talents and Fabregas was not; and hence he felt he is better off elsewhere.
 
Trionz said:
Hindsight.
If you guys knew, why did you let Fabregas go then?

Why has he been the only such case of losing a player due to youth contract, and turning into a world class player?

It is simple fact that Barcelona were unaware of his potential to be a world class player and realized they made a mistake as soon as he earned a place in Arsenal's first team.
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:lol: Fabregas had a big reputation as a very promising young player when Wenger snapped him up.
 
Count Orduck said:
What? That's bollocks.

It's a simple case that Arsenal were able to offer him professional terms and thus more money two years before Barcelona could. He also felt he'd get more playing time in a much weaker Arsenal team. He was right.
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That midfield wasn't weak.
 
Trionz said:
Hindsight.
If you guys knew, why did you let Fabregas go then?

Why has he been the only such case of losing a player due to youth contract, and turning into a world class player?

It is simple fact that Barcelona were unaware of his potential to be a world class player and realized they made a mistake as soon as he earned a place in Arsenal's first team.
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It's not a case of letting him go, he just decided to sign for someone else. Better pay, and Wenger's promises of first team action. We couldn't give him a a professional contract, and we couldn't promise him that he'd play for the first team as quickly as he would at Arsenal. He decided to leave, Barca didn't exactly kick him out of the door.
 
Trionz said:
If that's the case.
How come players like Thiago Alcantara, Jonathan Dos Santos and others not swooped in yet?

The simple fact is above players were appreciated of their talents and Fabregas was not; and hence he felt he is better off elsewhere.
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Football isn't that simple, Barca are protecting their younger players with buy out clause a lot more cautiously than ever before.Besides there are about a hundred more other factors taken into account as to why they weren't swooped in yet and why Fabregas was.
You're way too naive
 
Trionz said:
As big as Ljajic, Douglas, Dos Santos.
Oh yes, where are they?
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There are plenty of talented youngsters who don't stay at the club they were taught football for many various reasons.Pogba left Le Havre very early for instance, do you think it's because he was deemed good enough talent ??
For every example there's a counter example so your logic makes no sense, using other examples to say that Fabregas wasn't considered at Barca and therefore Arsenal "made" him.
 
Arsenal did "make" Fabregas, to suggest otherwise is myopic. Yes he learned the fundamentals at La Masia, but he wouldn't be the player he is today without the responsibility he had at Arsenal as one of the league's best midfielders for years. He wouldn't have got time at Barcelona either, not with Deco, Xavi, Guily, et al ahead of him in the pecking order.
 
They (Arsenal) made him but I meant it in the way that his first years were at La Masia which was the initial talking point.He developed more at Arsenal, no way to argue with that but no matter what the gooners will say or think, Fabregas' football career started at Barca
 
KingEric7 said:
There's always a subtle sort of aggression and/or jealousy in these Barcelona threads. There are no two ways about it - what Barcelona and Cruyff have done with La Masia is phenomenal, and everyone else should be aspiring to replicate it.

Even if people do not feel Alba and Fabregas qualify (which is perhaps a fair viewpoint), to have produced the likes of Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Pedro, Pique, Busquets, Thiago, etc in such close proximity is absolutely mind-blowing.
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Lazy straw man argument, classic line always pulled out in this type of thread.
 
Sarni said:
Fair enough. Barcelona would have gladly kept him if it weren't for the money. They weren't allowed to offer him a professional contract until he turned 18 while Arsenal offered him a contract when he was just 16, am I right?
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You're absolutely right...I mean there's more to it than the financial/legal fact that he remains the biggest case of poaching in world football - it was a dysfunctional management period for the club as well and the emphasis was not on the cantera kids like it is today...He, like Piqué slipped through during a transition in philosophy & management when Laporta came in...It's why his board was obsessed with getting Cesc back, even if he was surplus to needs

By contrast, today, even Deulofeu, Dongou, Grimaldo etc. have been in a similar state of potential poaching but they've rebuffed advances due to both the club's emphasis on the cantera and the current era of sporting success...Some still slip through like Hector and Pacheco but the local kids and the superstar potential ones tend to stay...If they leave, I think the club views them as needing to profess their interest for a return prior to pursuing them in the transfer market...Alba talked at length during last season about his admiration for the club and how it's every Catalan's dream to play for Barcelona while still at Los Che...His case, like Tello's is even more impressive because they turned their career's around at other clubs when they were deemed surplus...Yet, they want to return...that kind of club culture is ingrained in Catalan youths....So, yeah, Cesc was always going to return...even if he wasn't needed (Or wanted, in my case)
 
Trionz said:
It is simple fact that Barcelona were unaware of his potential to be a world class player and realized they made a mistake as soon as he earned a place in Arsenal's first team (A month after being poached).
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It'll definitely be the last time I address one of your posts because you're either being intentionally obtuse or resigned to being ignorant with uninformed assertions while trying to pass them off as fact...All I can gather is that you know little apart form Cesc Fabregas once played for Arsenal
 
Fabregas is a product of both clubs imo.

Let's say Barca collected the clay and started to form the rough outlines and then came Wenger and Arsenal and for modeled the player out of this rough form we see today.

He isn't either a Barca or Arsenal youth product, he is a product of both clubs excellent player education and Wengers will to give talented players a chance no matter how young they are.

At least that's how I see it.
 
NoLogo said:
Fabregas is a product of both clubs imo.

Let's say Barca collected the clay and started to form the rough outlines and then came Wenger and Arsenal and for modeled the player out of this rough form we see today.

He isn't either a Barca or Arsenal youth product, he is a product of both clubs excellent player education and Wengers will to give talented players a chance no matter how young they are.

At least that's how I see it.
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Agreed. In the end, there's no doubt he was given the opportunity to develop more quickly at Arsenal, due to more playing time. It's impossible to know if he would have developed into the same player if he'd stayed at Barca, but reason dictates that it would have taken longer, and that his playing style wouldn't be quite the same without the PL influence.
 
Imo 3-4 years of this Fabregas-Barca-Arsenal neverending bollox is enough.

Can we get back on topic?
 
This season will again throw up great narrative and great characters. Wonderful players will emerge – keep an eye on Oliver Torres at Atlético – and there will be new heroes. There will be fascinating plots and there will be life beyond the big two. There always is, even if it goes ignored too often and by too many. The fear though is that it will have a familiar ending. When those players do emerge, they will watch Real and Barcelona disappear into the distance and they too will have to make a choice. Sign for them. Or leave.
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Real's and Barça's ability to make the impossible look easy has crushed the ambitions of La Liga's other clubs:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/...elona-real-madrid-spanish-football?CMP=twt_gu
 
At least they have a lot of teams competing for 3rd. Not in any way worse than England where you've also had 2 teams fighting for the top 2 and 3-4 other teams fighting for the other two CL spots. Mid table football in England is pretty boring whilst in Spain you've got 4th-18th place pretty tightly knit.
 
Snow said:
At least they have a lot of teams competing for 3rd. Not in any way worse than England where you've also had 2 teams fighting for the top 2 and 3-4 other teams fighting for the other two CL spots. Mid table football in England is pretty boring whilst in Spain you've got 4th-18th place pretty tightly knit.
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Indeed, I've been saying this for a while - in Spain the rest is much more level than in England where only 6, maybe 7 different teams could realistically dream of making it into CL. It makes for a more entertaining season because 3 or 4 wins a row can put you in a top 4 race even if you hadn't been doing so well up until that point. That league is so close that a solid team like Villarreal went from top 4 to relegation because they lost their two star strikers to injury.
 
Snow said:
At least they have a lot of teams competing for 3rd. Not in any way worse than England where you've also had 2 teams fighting for the top 2 and 3-4 other teams fighting for the other two CL spots. Mid table football in England is pretty boring whilst in Spain you've got 4th-18th place pretty tightly knit.
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The inability of those teams to go far in the Champions League for years has always prevented me from rating them that much.

I'd say that the La Liga is the best league for now.
 
Trionz said:
It is simple fact that Barcelona were unaware of his potential to be a world class player
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Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread any further, but :lol: :lol: :lol: Fabregas was the Golden Boot and Golden Shoe winner of the 2003 U17 WC. This is how FIFA officially rated him back then:

This year's yield will certainly have a few scouts as well as senior national team coaches licking their lips. Still 16 but with a fighter's will, Spain's Cesc will surely go on to make more of a name for himself. Two important goals in the all-Iberian European Final rematch against Portugal and two more, including the 117th-minute golden goal winner in the semi-final versus Argentina, point to a potentially wonderful career for the midfielder.
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http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/archive/tournament=102/edition=6946/overview.html

His linkup play with Messi in the youth ranks was legendary. They were destroying pretty much every team they faced like 7-0 or 8-0. "Barcelona unaware of his potential". :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Homeomorphic said:
Sorry, I don't want to derail this thread any further, but :lol: :lol: :lol: Fabregas was the Golden Boot and Golden Shoe winner of the 2003 U17 WC. This is how FIFA officially rated him back then:



http://www.fifa.com/tournaments/archive/tournament=102/edition=6946/overview.html

His linkup play with Messi in the youth ranks was legendary. They were destroying pretty much every team they faced like 7-0 or 8-0. "Barcelona unaware of his potential". :lol: :lol: :lol:
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I have been warned off derailing threads as well, so consider this as last(surely) input to this thread.

U-17 WC exploits is no indication of how a player is going to develop.

Here's a list of all the players who won U-17 WC honours.
scaled.php


What's the success rate there, mate?

Merely talent has never been enough. Tell me what happen to Bojan, who scored how many in your youth ranks? 700 goals?
 
That's not the point though. It's true that his development might have stalled if he stayed at Barcelona with Xavi, Iniesta and Deco around. Wenger gave him Champions League final football at age 19. He wouldn't have gotten that at Barcelona. You however claimed "they were unaware of his potential" and let him go because of that. Which is bollocks. He was one of the biggest youth talents in the world, if not the biggest at that time.
 
Meanwhile, without the Cesc debate...

How about that La Liga, eh? Who do you reckon will get the European spots, apart from the two obvious, and the semi-obvious Valencia?
 
If someone wants to exclusively maintain that Fabregas is a product of Barcelona academy then they must also admit Biscuits is not a product of the Barcelona academy since he moved there when he was 17.

I agree with what one poster said that Fabregas's development was helped by both clubs.
 
So, with a whole day to spare, the deals have been done. For now. La Liga starts on Saturday, the schedule has been confirmed and so have the TV channels. Though only after the Minister for Sport told them to sort it out.

Basically in Spain the satellite company Canal+ will show all the games live, including Barcelona and Real Madrid, except for one game (not Barca or Madrid) that will be free to view. In return they will pay the other TV company (Mediapro) enough money that they don't go broke. Mediapro will show most of the games as well.

Real Madrid and Barcelona have each thrown 5m back into the pot for the lesser mortals of La Liga to fight over. Yes, I know, the generosity brought tears to my eyes as well. :D
 
La Liga this weekend - copied from the BBC so showing UK times:
Saturday, 18 August 2012
Celta de Vigo v Malaga, 18:00
Sevilla v Getafe, 20:00
Mallorca v Espanyol, 22:00

Sunday, 19 August 2012
Athletic Bilbao v Real Betis, 18:00
Real Madrid v Valencia, 18:00
Barcelona v Real Sociedad, 20:00
Levante v Atletico Madrid, 22:00

Monday, 20 August 2012
Deportivo La Coruna v Osasuna, 18:00
Rayo Vallecano v Granada, 20:00
Real Zaragoza v Valladolid, 22:00

Obviously the big game of the weekend is Madrid - Valencia on Sunday night. The same fixture last year was a goalless draw, but that's out of character for the two teams. Valencia have a new manager so it could be an interesting start.
 
Could be very interesting. VCF news are saying that on the 16th Spurs contacted Valencia about Soldado, were even willing to pay his buyout clause of 30 million euros but the player didnt want to go. All the more reason if he needed any to go back to his former club and get a couple of goals against the champions
 
Malaga drawing away to Celta, sounds like a bit of a forgetful game. All the big boys play tomorrow
 
Malaga with the same odds to win the league as Valencia. Someone hasnt heard about Cazorla leaving
 
Have I missed the Spanish equivalent of the Community Shield? Can't find it in the fixture lists, and I'm eager to see if Jose pokes anyone in the eye this year.
 
Antisocial said:
Have I missed the Spanish equivalent of the Community Shield? Can't find it in the fixture lists, and I'm eager to see if Jose pokes anyone in the eye this year.
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Thursday night, then the following wednesday for the 2nd leg.
 
Malaga only have 19 first team players left so Pellegrini gave a 16 year old, Fabrice Olinga, his debut. Fabrice scored the only goal in Malaga's 0-1 win.

The youngest Liga goalscorer ever apparently.
 
Valencia starting line-up:

Diego Alves; Joao Pereira, Ricardo Costa, Víctor Ruiz, Mathieu; Tino Costa, Gago, Feghouli; Jonas, Guardado, Soldado.
 
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