Which of course is a problematic proposition as this case, the Arbery murder, and plenty of other cases show to varying degrees. Rittenhouse can just bleet about "trying to kill" even if the different people were actually just trying to kick his ass or apprehend him. It doesn't actually matter if Grosskreutz was actually just trying to disarm or defend himself from Rittenhouse, which is highly problematic because this entire incident result from Rittenhouse's own actions. Justice would at least see him in jail for a lesser included here.
Kyle Rittenhouse | Now crowdfunding LOLsuits against Whoopi Goldberg, LeBron James, and The Young Turks
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Which of course is a problematic proposition as this case, the Arbery murder, and plenty of other cases show to varying degrees. Rittenhouse can just bleet about "trying to kill" even if the different people were actually just trying to kick his ass or apprehend him. It doesn't actually matter if Grosskreutz was actually just trying to disarm or defend himself from Rittenhouse, which is highly problematic because this entire incident result from Rittenhouse's own actions. Justice would at least see him in jail for a lesser included here.
He'll get some protection from the AB or the like. How much, who knows?
$ & staying elected.
I' like that to happen but, for me, the odds went down a lot when the judge interpreted the law in favor of Rittenhouse and dismissed the illegal weapons charge (against the obvious intent and spirit of the law). That action I feel will influence the jury and heavily increase the chance Rittenhouse gets off on everything. Judge Bible Quotes and Trump Campaign themes heavily influenced the verdict there in my view.
On a lighter note, the schools around where I live also have "bear alert" drills with what do when a bear wanders onto campus. The bears show up a couple times per year. One bear showed up so often he was lovingly nicknamed "Meatball".
Meatball video
Meatball the Bear
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Its not problematic at all.
Misunderstandings happen and neither party is obliged to allow the other to give up their life or allow serious harm happen to them.
Any reasonable person in Rittenhouse's shoes would have thought there was an imminent threat to their life or risk of serious injury from any of Huber, Jump Kick Man or Grosskreutz while running away with a mob chasing them with weapons. The only reasonable chance of these convictions for these is if Rittenhouse is guilty of murder of Rosenbaum which would logically lead to legal provocation of the mob.
It's problematic when you remove other concepts such as duty to retreat which was linked earlier, the requirement to exhaust all alternatives, and the factor of provocation and reduce everything to how someone feels.
No shooting practice for the little ones?
Looking like no verdict today.
Seems to indicate a hung jury, which would be understandable with such a divisive and politicised case.
Seems to indicate a hung jury, which would be understandable with such a divisive and politicised case.
If a shooter comes in school are you allowed to engage him considering he would need to "self defence" afterwards.
On a serious note aren't children traumatized by it.
On the contrary if Kyle's thrown the book it also meant that anyone can feel threatened by anything, and bash them with skateboard. And if they fought back it's homicide.
If you're dressed as KkK, nazi, etc it's not for the masses to do street justice. You call the cop and let them deal with it. Taking law into your own hand is never right in my eyes.
And that doesnt mean I'm a nazi sympathizer. It's just what i believe. And equally for armaud, even if he's buglar or indeed have ulterior motives he is not to be harmed by civilian.
Isnt that what started all this mess? A civilian playing vigilante?
I'm looking beyond Kyle's case, that provocation no matter how is not a justification for physical assault. That's all. And for this principle i find his self defence is just.
He's a white supremacist cnut? Yes. But even if he is, a gun totting lib nutcase you just dont do street justice on him and expecting to be vindicated by law.
Being a cnut is not a reason to get smashed in the head by a skateboard.
I think the fact that gun is involved make things go blur
In my eyes, and again.... not counting anything prior. Kyle's reaction "AFTER" he's on the ground is very calculated, very proportional and I couldn't have done any better. Off course, I wouldn't be in that situation in the first place, I'd probably leave the town or lock myself silly in my house and that's that.
But if somehow I'm on the ground with skateboard looking like it's going to be based to my head, yep... I'll shoot first ask later.
And this is the crux of his defense : He has the right to feel scared for his life.
I'm not a proponent of gun law, never have, not even a US citizen, but in this particular case his self defense is not wrong.
Well, they get elected by trumpeting NRA talking points. Hell, my state floated the idea of arming us teachers for a bit.
I love thatNot yet.
Nope. They’ve seen… a lot… of school shootings in their lifetimes, so they know it’s for a real purpose.
Multiple days to get to verdicts in very high profile cases are not uncommon over here.
Agree on the hung jury sentiment, especially with multiple charges.
Actually, you can’t. At least not here.
How do you know he wasn't a good guy with a skateboard trying to take out someone that looked to be about to go on a shooting rampage? Remember the US has seen a lot of mass shootings carried out with AR-15s the last few years.
Grosskreutz was definitely a good guy with a gun that night.
You can't call the cops? Or you can't wear those?
We can't know for sure, we can only decide aftermath. If the gunners is a nutter than he's a hero for trying to bash him. But at this point Rittenhouse while grotesque and despicable isn't someone that needs to be stopped. You need a reasonably strong probably cause to strike a man down first and that's a big burden of proof. Or else it'll be Armaud case all over, I find him suspicious and suspect so I shoot him first.
That's a dubious comparison as Arbery was unarmed and suspected of committing a non-violent minor crime. RIttenhouse was armed and could have began shooting at any moment, a clear and present danger to those around him. He also sticks out as a reactionary force in that crowd. Him being attacked per-emptively is not surprising in that respect. And it all could have been avoided if Rittenhouse didn't make all those bad (faith) decisions.
Grosskreutz was a good guy that night?
No reasonable person would ever be in Rittenhouse's shoes because Rittenhouse's situation was the direct result of unreasonable actions he himself made.
By NRA/2A standards, yes.
Wasn’t he illegally carrying that Glock?
Use the arguments from other posters about Rittenhouse: 1)Why does Rittenhouse carry a weapon if he’s only there to give medical assistance? 2) why didn’t Rittenhouse retreat instead of aggressively confronting another person?
Both questions could also be asked of Grosskreutz, but conveniently, you’re only asking it of one and not the other.
Full disclosure: I want Kyle Rittenhouse to be found guilty of the serious charges that aren’t murder, but if you are going to compare Rittenhouse to Grosskreutz, then you must also mention that Grosskreutz was carrying an illegal firearm, Rittenhouse was not, and Grosskreutz has a long history of crimes; Rittenhouse does not.
Neither person is a “good” person, but for you to defend one and call for the other’s head is ridiculous
Grosskreutz had an expired concealed carry permit in a shall issue state. It's an administrative oversight, a paper crime. He was the only person involved that night qualified to have a gun at that moment.
The only reason the NRA and 2A rights activists aren't all over this point is because they believe an acquittal for Rittenhouse will get them closer to the America they dream about (the one where you can kill people you don't like with impunity, like the good ol' pre-civil-rights days).
Grosskreutz hasn't been charged for carrying his firearm that night because he wouldn't get convicted for that in a shall issue state. These places usually allow you a grace period to renew of up to 90 days. Interestingly, no outlet that I've seen has reported on the expiry date of his CCW permit. I'd wager that's because it was still within that grace period and that wouldn't help the agenda.
Meanwhile, the state of Wisconsin is bending existing law to allow a teenager to carry a high powered rifle in public after he shot four and killed two.
Erm, Grosskreutz had just watched Rittenhouse shoot two people. He had very good reason to confront him. You'll note that he didn't just shoot Rittenhouse but tried to control the situation and understand what was happening.
Grosskreutz admits that he pointed his gun at Rittenhouse before getting shot. He said it was “unintentional”. Was that part of his method to “understand what was happening” as you stated?
Also, why is he armed? Plenty of posters on here have commented that Rittenhouse shouldn’t have been armed, but nobody is saying that about Grosskreutz! Why not?
Other crimes committed by Grosskreutz:
“ On Aug. 16, 2020, just days before the Rittenhouse shootings, he was arrested by cops in West Allis for allegedly “prowling” when he was nabbed videotaping police vehicles in a police department parking lot”-“ Gaige made clear his anti-law enforcement views. Gaige was arrested for prowling, booked, cited and released.”
“ In 2013, he was charged with smashing the bedroom window at an ex-girlfriend’s home at 4 a.m., with the woman claiming he had been harassing her on the phone”-“ One year earlier, was hit with a felony burglary charge in New Berlin when cops said he was caught trying to sell three stolen PlayStation consoles, the outlet reported.”
“ And in 2010, Grosskreutz was arrested and charged with hitting his grandmother in the face during a dispute, during which he also threw a lamp and damaged a wall. The then-17-year-old swung “a lamp into the living room wall, damaging the lamp and the wall and struck his grandma across the face with an open hand,” a report in that case said.”
Yeah, seems like a standup guy!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...house-shootings-has-criminal-past-report/amp/
“ On Aug. 16, 2020, just days before the Rittenhouse shootings, he was arrested by cops in West Allis for allegedly “prowling” when he was nabbed videotaping police vehicles in a police department parking lot”-“ Gaige made clear his anti-law enforcement views. Gaige was arrested for prowling, booked, cited and released.”
“ In 2013, he was charged with smashing the bedroom window at an ex-girlfriend’s home at 4 a.m., with the woman claiming he had been harassing her on the phone”-“ One year earlier, was hit with a felony burglary charge in New Berlin when cops said he was caught trying to sell three stolen PlayStation consoles, the outlet reported.”
“ And in 2010, Grosskreutz was arrested and charged with hitting his grandmother in the face during a dispute, during which he also threw a lamp and damaged a wall. The then-17-year-old swung “a lamp into the living room wall, damaging the lamp and the wall and struck his grandma across the face with an open hand,” a report in that case said.”
Yeah, seems like a standup guy!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nypost...house-shootings-has-criminal-past-report/amp/
Yes. You can point a firearm at someone. Police do it frequently. It is likely a reflection of CCW training. You don't shoot until you're sure what is happening.
Grosskreutz was authorized by the state of Wisconsin to carry a concealed firearm. He doesn't need a reason to carry concealed. Based on the number of permits, over 325k people in Wisconsin do it every day. Rittenhouse needs a reason to open carry an AR-15 at the age of 17. He didn't have one so they bent the law for him.
He's suing the police, so those first charges are likely bogus. Who cares if he's loitering around a police station anyway?
Arrested and charged on the others but convicted? Unlikely, otherwise he wouldn't be able to get a CCW permit in Wisconsin. Two key requiremetns:
- You have not been convicted of a felony in Wisconsin
- You have not been convicted of a crime elsewhere that would be a felony if convicted in Wisconsin.
According to his rap sheet, he shouldn’t have had a CCW permit.
And, yes, I also have a permit. My training would never lead me to believe that I should run towards an active shooter, pause, aim my firearm at the individual, then interpret “what is happening” as you stated.
You might want to retake your CCW class with a certified instructor
I never said that Kyle was “doing the public good”. Jeezus, take a breath and stop putting words in my mouth.
Also, the reasons for not allowing a CCW are more extensive than your “selective” list, where the sheriff/law enforcement has the ability to deny even if there’s no conviction:
-Conviction for a felony crime
-Conviction for a misdemeanor crime within four years of the application
-Discharge from a juvenile court within four years of the application
-Currently subject to a restraining order or stalking order
-Conviction for an offense involving controlled substances or having participated in a court-supervised drug diversion program (excluding marijuana)
-The law also enables a sheriff to deny an application if the sheriff:
"has reasonable grounds to believe that the applicant has been or is reasonably likely to be a danger to self or others, or to the community at large, as a result of the applicant's mental or psychological state, as demonstrated by past pattern of behavior or participation in incidents involving unlawful violence or threats of unlawful violence."
Charges aren't felony convictions.
Oh we don't have CCW in Canada, we're a civilized bunch.
Felony conviction is only one of several reasons for denial.
Civilized! Haha
Apologies for being unclear, it's a media narrative that some organizations are pushing. Grosskreutz's failings are far from terrible.
All of the events you listed earlier happened prior to him getting a CCW permit so his that rap sheet would have been considered before. He does have a recent incident related to carrying while intoxicated and it could be that he was afraid to apply for renewal because of that but the illegal carry argument is a fallacy because two wrongs don't make a right. Grosskreutz's expired permit doesn't make Rittenhouse less guilty.
Yes, but it's an important one when one side (not you!) is trying to paint the other as a criminal. He's the full list of requirements that I get because Wisconsin's DoJ either doesn't like me using a VPN or their site iss really popular right now.
- Must be at least 21 years old
- Applicant can provide adequate proof of training
- Applicant is not prohibited by a court order from possessing a firearm
- Applicant is a Wisconsin resident as indicated by a current and valid Wisconsin driver's license or identification card or is active military stationed in Wisconsin.
- You have not been convicted of a felony in Wisconsin
- You have not been convicted of a crime elsewhere that would be a felony if convicted in Wisconsin.
- You have not been adjudicated delinquent for an act committed on or after April 21, 1994, that if committed by an adult in this state would be a felony.
- You have not been committed to treatment and ordered not to possess a firearm.
- You have not found not guilty or not responsible for a crime elsewhere that would be a felony in this state by reason of insanity or mental illness, disease or defect.
- You have not been adjudicated delinquent for an act committed on or after April 21, 1994, that if committed by an adult in this state would be a felony.
You’re correct about the intoxicated issue, which is yet another reason he shouldn’t have been “legally” carrying that night: “ On May 9, 2015, Grosskreutz was stopped by police in Greenfield, about 40 miles from Kenosha, after cops reported he had “bloodshot and glassy” eyes — with the officers recovering a 9mm Glock 19 handgun from his vehicle.”
And I completely agree, two wrongs don’t make a right! Kyle should’ve never had that AR-15, let alone carrying that night in Kenosha. My point was that everyone was stating that Kyle was in the wrong, without mentioning Gaige. You were even saying he was a “good guy” that night. I was just pointing out the fact that neither person was “good”
To be fair I was just rehashing NRA rhetoric.
But he was engaging someone that he thought could be an active shooter. At the very least his intentions were good, even if he is flawed.
Also, from your last bullet point (pun intended):
“You have not been adjudicated delinquent for an act committed on or after April 21, 1994, that if committed by an adult in this state would be a felony.”
Gauge had a lengthy juvenile criminal record (but not made public, so this is shaky at best) which would’ve been a huge red flag for the permit:
“In addition, he has prior juvenile arrests that are sealed”. Again, I obviously don’t know what’s in those juve records, but a case could definitely be built that this guy should never have had a permit.
“You have not been adjudicated delinquent for an act committed on or after April 21, 1994, that if committed by an adult in this state would be a felony.”
Gauge had a lengthy juvenile criminal record (but not made public, so this is shaky at best) which would’ve been a huge red flag for the permit:
“In addition, he has prior juvenile arrests that are sealed”. Again, I obviously don’t know what’s in those juve records, but a case could definitely be built that this guy should never have had a permit.
I will grant you that, sir
But he had one, so either these incidents were adjudicated to not be an issue or there are massive issues with Wisconsin's processes.
I'm getting the impression that he didn't renew because he thought he'd be denied but if he'd got a permit before I think he'd have to have done a lot worse than what's in his record to be rejected.
I’m hoping it’s not “massive issues” with the process, but I do wonder.
Anyway, let’s get the thread back on topic and discuss what might happen tomorrow and going forward in Kenosha.
BTW, congrats on the Canadian win today! Love to see players jumping in the snow after a goal!!!
Good, bad or just misunderstood, he's got a horseshoe up his ass all things considered.
Hopefully there isn't too much in the way of civil unrest. Do you think Kenosha, WI or any other jurisdictions might try to restrict the use or carrying of AR-15s in urban areas? The concern being all those Proud Boy and Boogallo chaps marching into tense situations and making things worse.
Cheers. I missed it but spent the better part of my childhood playing footy on fields of ice and snow in winter boots and a parka. It's somewhat overrated but a good way to keep warm at recess.