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Wilshere is a brilliant comparison.
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Yep. If he improves his passing he'll be at a level of a world class number 8, everything else he is already at a very high level.
I think his short passing game is good, but as some others have said, for him to progress, he'll need to add longer passes to his game, especially switching of the ball, and I have no doubt he will.
Having said that, this is where ten Hag needs to look at a midfielder who has a good long passing game, as this will not only compliment Mainoo, but most of our other midfielders, too.
Funnily enough, Sir Jim Ratcliffe said we lack a Scholes type player, who we know had a tremendous passing range.
Will ten Hag look to purchase a Scholes type midfielder, as opposed to a physical combative midfielder?
I think with Bruno and Mainoo, we have enough range in their passing to get away with someone who is a bit more combative in the midfield. I just worry about the drop off in ability if one of them was to get injured.
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Bruno and Eriksen are capable of switching play and to be fair Mount is a better long passer than people give him credit for.
Athleticism is needed more in that midfield than a long pass. Martinez can play long, Onana can play long and to be fair to Dalot he’s pretty good too so we have good deep passers just not a world class one.
Agreed, we need athleticism in midfield over anything else. Too many games our midfield is bullied, outworked. We just have too many gaps, we need someone who will fight and close people down, when we dont have the ball.
This quote shows Southgate has been fully aware the options next to Rice have been crap, he’s literally been waiting for someone like Mainoo
It shouldn't become legion that he cannot hit long, forward passes because it's patently untrue. There's a big difference between being risk averse and simply not having the attribute in the locker. Mainoo was well known for his passing range before promotion to the 1st team, but his job brief and his natural instinct is that ball retention and recycling is king, that whilst it seems Casemiro and Bruno are charged with punting the ball to the moon as and when they feel like.
Mainoo has obviously been schooled in keeping the ball over anything else, and perhaps his roots as a crossover #6 and #8 show here in how he treats taking those risks frequently whilst others go for it a lot more from the same positions on the pitch.
He has hit some peaches of long and/or forward passes for club and country already and with time, he will display how expansive he is because that ability has earned him praise on his way up.
The big difference between his unders self and the one playing professional football is that he was given the team at unders, whilst as a pro, he is a cog with a specific job to do. With time, his briefing will change, so will the confidence and expectation to give him the midfield.
It should be recalled that in every midfield there is an issue of deference. A go to guy who dictates and allows others to do there thing. When Keane was here, he dictated to Scholes or whoever else he was with, and it's not a coincidence that Scholes become more expressive, with more touches or the ball than anyone else when Keane left. With Keane there, he always led the team for touches and passes and set the tempo. Scholes did the same to Carrick, and it's a common theme in most teams; it's rare that a load is equally shared - everyone identifies who is the chief, even if others are really sublime with the ball. Perfect examples at the top of the totem would be Xavi and Modric. Busquets and Iniesta were superb passers in their own right, but Xavi owned that midfield; ditto Modric next to Kroos, and it's now Modric is on the wind down that the midfield becomes Kroos' to do with as he pleases/dictates. You can see the same with England; that midfield is Bellingham's, and he takes it over as and when he feels like it. We're some way off giving the midfield to Mainoo. In fact, he's third in the pecking order for now, so the likelihood of him massively expressing his passing range is going to be reduced for now.
But his passing range is not limited, really. His reluctance to express that is another matter.
As an aside, it is very clear Eriksen is seen as the top dog at the club when it comes to deep passing. When he is on the pitch, literally all defer to and are led by him, despite his aged legs and inability to get around the pitch. Passing hierarchy is a [big] thing. Deference is clear on a football pitch.
Gareth so impressed with Kobbie he will either stay on with England just to work with him or push SJR for a job at United.
I think his short and medium range passing as well as his passing through the lines are all high quality but hasn't developed the long range passing yet. You're right about Wilshere, he reminds me a lot of when Wilshere was breaking through.
Let’s hope for the former.
I suppose a question is do you push Mainoo to improve his long passing or just try to build around him given his current abilities and let him improve it himself.
The issue is that it would be very difficult to find a number 6 who is great at passing as well. Rodri is the best right now but there aren't many like him. Xabi and Carrick would have been perfect players.
Kimmich might be available in the summer but him and Mainoo are too similar in their roles. Both like to go forward and create chances (though Kimmich is more through his passing while Mainoo is with runs forward) so it would be a case of a double pivot where one goes forward and the other stays back. It might be restrictive on Mainoo's ability to be creative in the attacking areas though.
I don't watch nearly as much football around Europe as I used too so can't pinpoint any youngster who can come in, Bayern are after Zubimendi so he can be someone to play that role. Actually someone who does come to mind is Leverkusen's Palacios, he's been incredible this season and can contribute both in defense and passing.
Thankful for your helpfulness and quick maths lesson. I’m not ‘making up numbers’. As you helpfully pointed out, .5 + .5 is 1. Between the two .5s, a team can still have 1 #10. Just not a specialist 10. 8.5 is a commonly used description in the game, and the .5 is quite obviously not half of a 9, it’s half of a 10.
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Or we could say 8/10 hybrid. Or attacking 8s.
I just think we’re inserting numbers here where words are far better descriptors. Especially given how nuanced numbered roles are now surely talking about the profile in terms of function is clearer than saying they are an 8.5.
8.5 is halfway between 8 and 9 that’s why this is a poor descriptor as for it to make sense you then have to do this:
9
11——10——7
8
6
3—4—5–2
1
Search ”Mainoo Belgium” on youtube
I admit I was lazy on that one, thanks mate!
I think people do it to make them sound like they have a better knowledge of football.
I have heard Mainoo's voice, so I definitely know he is not a false number 7.
In inclined to agree. I just wonder how much influence Sir Jim Ratcliffe will have. From the outside looking in, he said if there was one midfielder he'd add to our midfield, it would be Paul Scholes.
Now, obviously he's not the manager and you'd expect ten Hag to know better, but pretty much everyone was calling out for a Scholes type player last season, yet he bought Mount.
If Casemiro and Eriksen goes, then maybe we'll bring in two midfielders.
I had called the Modric style comparison since watching him in the under 18s as a 16 year old. Others were lazily comparing him to Pogba.Glad I'm not the only one.
Agreed on long passes, for a kid that young his basics are terrific.
Would love us to pair him with Joao Neves, but might be more sensible financially to get an outright DM for around 40-50m.
I think that's what Sir Jim wants, too. He's already identified Mainoo as ''more of a defensive midfielder''.
Imagine a midfield three of Bruno Neves and Mainoo. The height's not there, but all three of those midfielders are tenacious.
Yeah, that's lazy all right, his style is nothing similar to Pogba's.
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To be fair @JPRouve has explained this in more of a European description. I still think we’re just better off using words to describe the roles because I could call Koopmeiners a 6.5 or 8.5 but his function would be completely different to a Mainoo in the same role.I think people do it to make them sound like they have a better knowledge of football.
A false Sept-to (one for the French)
I’m not sure with Bruno we’re set up for a Scholes.
You’d have to drop Bruno for that.
Yeah even with Pogba, people lazily compared him to Viera when he was much more style wise like a Zidane. Ridiculously skillful attacking midfielder. Not a deep guy.
Seedorf, Modrić hybrid definitely for Mainoo. Though the main thing he hasn't really shown is much of a passing range, he can do it to a decent level but it's not something he looks for often.
Indeed. Same with his athleticism i feel, at least to me he seems to have more in his locker in terms of pace.
I do think he has decent passing range but hasn’t really felt the need to use it much yet.
He wouldn’t be on Scholes level with long range passing but can do it.
One thing that always reminded me of Scholes with him is his little outside of the boot passes around corners.
The thing is, Neves plays as the deepest midfielder for Benfica and I think he’s more industrious defensively than Mainoo. Both could easily drop into the 6 position.
Neves arguably has better long passing ability than Mainoo.
But yeah, Neves’ tenacity is great.
We might need a more physically imposing type as well though.
Yep. He knows the natural movement and positioning of opening your self to receive the ball and always look like you have time on the ball. Very Scholes like in that. His short passing is very good, but in general his bigger skill is his dribbling and carrying than his passing. But for his position he doesn't need flashy passing, he needs smart and consistent passing, knowing where to pass, to who, progress it occasionally, slow it down occasionally... He's excellent at that. The best midfielders make the game look simple and don't have to do some crazy play to show their quality. Pogba was a highlight reel playmaker, but he wasn't a natural deep midfielder. He didn't know how to control games or impact them if he wasn't doing the highlight reel.
To be honest, Ratcliffe is pretty much going to have 0 actual impact beyond what he's done. He hired Berrada to be the CEO. From there on his actual football involvement and opinions are pretty much just personal fan input and not functional input. He may like Southgate for example. But he doesn't hire the manager or identify the player targets or what players are.
Agreed.
I hope those reports about Ratcliffe having direct influence on team building are made up because he or Brailsford aren't people who should be doing that. Ashworth is hopefully coming in soon and along with a prospective new chief scout, Simon Wells, Jose Mayorga and the head coach, they need to develop the team going forward collectively.
And someone said earlier in the thread about Ratcliffe wanting a Scholes type in the team, but that Scholes type is already there in Kobbie Mainoo and as much as I would try and explain that to people before Mainoo's full competitive debut, they were sceptical. But like I said at the time, ten Hag had decided that he was going to go with Kobbie Mainoo as the creative midfielder in the team and not look to buy one. I think one more midfielder (specialist #6 ideally) would complete the midfield composition imo. I think we have more than enough players in attacking midfielder positions to make a difference but at least one more player to occupy a deeper berth will make a big difference.
Yeah. Totally agree on Pogba, always wanted to try to hold off 3 players or spray 50 yard balls, often losing possession in the process. Didn’t look after the ball anywhere near as well Mainoo is showing so far.
Scholes was all about passing and moving though. Mainoo is more direct and more of a carrier of the ball and I don't think he has it in him to play the Scholes way at the highest level.. It's why I think we need a holding midfielder that is better at controlling the game and dictating play sitting next to him, as opposed to a dedicated ball winner. Guimaraes would be the best available but I doubt he would come to us. Gutted we missed out on Rice tbh.
Where has this line of thinking come from? Mainoo has made the ball do far more of the work for him than he has taken it upon himself to make surging runs through midfield since his debut.
His runs are highlighted because they are eye-catching and effective, whilst the majority of the simple, effective ball progressions are not. In fact, only his fancy progressions get pointed out despite the understated being his bread and butter.
If you look at the number of passes he plays per game it's much lower than a typical Scholes game. Even though the amount of possession England had against Belgium for example was very high. Maybe experience will help him anticipate and pick up the ball more from the defence but he doesn't look to do that much atm. To do it consistently over a 90 you need incedible concentration, anticipation and spatial awareness. He's good at those things but Scholes was generational. He's more about receiving the ball from midfield, going past/turning his man and driving towards the box. Maybe pre 2007 Scholes but not the Scholes we tend to think of now.
The game has changed though, and there's different ways to do it. Mainoo absolutely is a dictating midfielder, he doesn't need an expansive passing range for that. Get your aggressive ball winner to have some more passing range as well so you have those switches in midfield too, but Mainoo is definitely the one who slows the game down and then can speed things up on a dime. Look at Modric. He was a roaming playmaker, picked the ball up off the defenders and dictated games all the time. He was much more of a dribbler than a passer like Kroos, but he was still a tempo settings dictating midfielder.
Scholes did not control games at 18.
Fair point, but it's always good to have someone in midfield that can ping passes around. It's another facet you can lean on in a ggame and if you look at all the generational sides like us with Scholes, Barca with Xavi, Real with Kroos. The common denominator is always a freakishly smart pass and mover.
Scholes played much further forward as an 18 year old and only developed that aspect later I know. I don't think he ven broke into the first team until he was 19?
You need both of course, but we have players who can hit those passes. The tempo controlling midfielder isn't necessarily that guy. You pair Mainoo who will eventually be the guy who dominates the touches with people who have that ability in their locker so they can unlock the full width of the pitch at any point.
Exactly. I just think the controlling midfielder is such a specialist role in the team, and its very rare you see young players doing so, especially in the Premier League.
I look at players like Carrick and Scholes, and it wasn't until they were in their mid/late twenties that they were controlling games for us.
Players that we wax--lyrical about i.e. Rodri, Kroos, Modric, Jorginho, etc are all experienced players, who have had to grow into the role.
With Mainoo, despite being so young, we're already seeing the composure and understanding that is way beyond his years, and I fully expect that in a few years time, he will be dictating games for us.
If you're going to go all the way up to Scholes, who is arguably our best passing midfielder of literal all-time, then whatever the outcome with Mainoo, it will take years to determine whether he has it in him to be that bracket of passer, you're not going to determine that from a small catalogue of games, even if he were firing them off 50+ yards in all of them. A frame of reference for what a player might go on to become is observing the best of them in the sides for their age group (the unders), where you're likely to see their full game on display.
It's a rare youngster indeed whose entire game comes with them straight out of the unders - even those capable of a lot more than they initially show tend to have to find their feet and get a foothold as a locked in starter before they feel assured enough to be fully expressive and expansive in their play. It will be a rare person that will say to you this Mainoo is displaying absolutely everything he was capable of in the unders.
This is his true game in microcosm:
Dotted throughout it are a number of longer range passes, and it's not even the point he's hitting the mark, rather, the technique and weight on the passes that let you know this is clearly something he is capable of. Scholes-esque? The game has changed a lot since then and short passes with lower risk of turnover are supposed to be the first point of call, so instinctively getting on the ball and hitting long is not going to be the mentality, we also don't have the wingers or the movement we did in Scholes' day to be spraying the ball around with that kind of frequency, so the long balls come in time and are going to be more infrequent. But again, for me, it's more about organic addition with that kind of expansive play. When it feels right to him, he will start to spray the ball as he did in the video above, I'm sure of it.
I think it's also apparent how well he hits weighted through balls in that vid. We have seen glimpses of it, but not enough to be classing him as a playmaker, despite him clearly having the capacity as he displayed with England, setting up one goal effectively, and playing others in for chances on another two occasions. It's still not 'satisfactory' because people want to see more attempts and a playmaking machine rather than a player who is selective and clever in when he even attempts those passes and is more than happy to keep it simple in the interim.
I'd say it's very clear by now that his game is transferable also. He's shown time and again he can break free and release, and he sets himself up with ample time to go longer if he desires, so it's not about pace of the game, rather, his desire to attempt the plays. I wouldn't say he's gun-shy, but I also don't think he's fully settled and expressing himself yet, either, which is understandable especially as he's said that he's got to get used to adult game and has been adapting to it despite looking like it's all effortless to him.
My biggest takeaway from younger Mainoo in the unders is his physicality and tussling is considerably higher than what we see of him as a pro. He is very shrewd in picking and choosing his moments to wrestle and jostle with full-grown men and it has affected his game somewhat because he'll go around rather than through a lot more than he did in the unders. It tells me that when he's a grown man himself, we'll see the exact same of him in the adult game and that will be a very different proposition for the opposition than what's there at the moment. Tactically, it'll open up the field a lot more for others too. In time there's a lot more to come than we've seen.
I'm glad someone said it.
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