Knee Jerk to Spurs game thread

tomaldinho1 said:
We went defensive, nothing wrong with that when it works but a bit pointless to say we weren’t defensive. 41% possession, we just let them make mistakes and used the quality of the front 2 (and an excellent few performances from McT, Varane, AWB) carry us along. It was comfortable but we weren’t offensive.

A win is always but but we are just waiting for a managerial change now. If you want to see the issue we have, go look at the stats from the Chelsea/Spurs game which was the same result and same, as memory serves, formation. Over the course of a season that difference in quality and control (which doesn’t come from a difference in players) will keep biting us in the arse.
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We played defensive is not same as we played with 7 at the back.

I don't have to look at stats, I know Chelsea dominate almost every game because of how they are set up under Tuchel. It's werid people moaning about 3 at the back when the best team in the league is dominating league with the same formation. People should be moaning about Ole's playing principles.
 
Winrar said:
Truth is we should've been on the hunt for a new manager as soon as things started to look down for us this season, at least as late as at YB, because that was a clear sign that we haven't gotten out of the extremely toxic boom/bust cycle under Ole.
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Extremely toxic? hahahahahaa
 
How can anyone watch us for the last few weeks and then get annoyed that we defended in bigger numbers yesterday?
 
AneRu said:
I don't mind the formation I am surprised by those complaining - the manager is required to take measures that stop the bleeding and this is exactly what he has done albeit a bit too late. We also can't go into freefall because we are trying too hard to put in all the expensive attacking players at the expense of defensive solidity.

The major worry is that we will use it as our default until it costs us, we need the manager to be good enough to anticipate what works against which opponent not one who is always reacting. That's on the board not on Ole though.
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Yeah, team comes first. Yes we won't be able to fit all our attacking players but if 3 at the back gives better balance to the team then so be it. Players on the bench will have to fight for their position.

Chelsea have so many attacking players but they play only 2 of them in 11. Didn't stop them from winning. It should be always the team first.

Also manager should also start rotating the team.

Also I don't know what was the point of this thread, I didn't read OP properly. Ole isn't the man for the job. No point looking for positives. One or two games won't change anything.

Also agree with your last paragraph. We need to be proactive in decision making.
 
Leftback99 said:
How can anyone watch us for the last few weeks and then get annoyed that we defended in bigger numbers yesterday?
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The reason they can’t help it is their autonomic nervous system (ANS). When you’ve sensed you’re under attack, when you’re in the middle of an argument or dispute, your ANS gets ramped up to defend you by quickening your heart rate and breathing, slowing your digestion, producing sweat, and so on.

When something or someone makes you angry, it’s hard to get back to feeling calm and positive. Your mind continues to replay what happened or think of additional reasons to be upset?

Sometimes, it’s just hard to let an issue or argument go. Sometimes, you have to get in the last word.
 
lysglimt said:
Yesterday was all about winning the game - Sancho hasn't looked the part yet. He will get many chances to show how good he can be - if this had been Watford or Norwich we would not have set up this way. But we HAD to win. And as long as we score 3 goals away, I don't care if we set up with 9 defenders.
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But that says it all....

We HAD to win... HAD

And why? Because we're not good enough under Ole
 
roonster09 said:
We played defensive is not same as we played with 7 at the back.

I don't have to look at stats, I know Chelsea dominate almost every game because of how they are set up under Tuchel. It's werid people moaning about 3 at the back when the best team in the league is dominating league with the same formation. People should be moaning about Ole's playing principles.
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They are, that’s the whole point.
£400m+ and 3 years and we’re still best plying on the counter against a very average team.
 
Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell said:
Hope to see Cavani and Ronaldo become a regular strike partnership. Sancho, Rashford and Greenwood can fight for the scraps. It's about what's best for the club and these two will deliver (without needing 5 chances to score 1).
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Little harsh on Rashy who has 3 goals in quick fire time after ages out injured.
 
This is why we are in the sht we are in. We meaning the fans and the people in the club and ex players, media etc keep banging on to the United way.

Pogba should be in a midfield two with 3 up front and Bruno as a 10! I don't know why it doesn't work! Well it friggin doesn't. The proof is in the pudding. 5 years we have been trying to play Pogba in a midfield 2. 5 years! And we keep going on and on about it. Then we try to be a pressing team. See how well thats gone. We want to play like City and Liverpool. Well we friggin cant. We don't have pressing players. We dont have attacking fullbacks. We dont have wingers that can cross.

Do I want to play like prime Liverpool/City. Prime Barca? Of course I do. But we have to realize that we cant and we have to play to our strengths. Does that mean 5 at the back all the time. No of course not. But against big teams lets sit back and counter. Thats what we are good at. That was how Ole got good results against top sides. They cant live with us when we play like that. The problem we had was breaking down low block teams. Well now we have all sorts of options to do that. Play Pogba on the Left, Donny in midfield and Sancho on the RW if we want to. That should break down anybody.

Even when Mourinho was here I always thought. Well this is not a typical Mourinho team. He seemed to adapt to play a more attacking version. We need a manager to have the balls to play to our strengths. To drop big players. To park the bus constantly game after game when we have to. Just do anything and everything to win. Forget the style. Forget the United way. Just do whatever we can to win. The attacking play will still be there. We will still score goals. But more importantly we will win and with winning will breed confidence and more winning.

I still want Ole out. Just because he doesn't have the balls to stick to a system. He was always best at counterattacking. Then he buys plyers that make no sense and tries different styles and formations. Pogba left. Pogba in a 2. Buy DVB and dont play him. Buy Ronaldo and have no structure to accommodate him. It goes on and on. It makes no sense. Football is simple. Just get men behind the ball when we need to and then get more players that can break the lines when we need to. That's all.

Rant over! :)
 
UpWithRivers said:
This is why we are in the sht we are in. We meaning the fans and the people in the club and ex players, media etc keep banging on to the United way.

Pogba should be in a midfield two with 3 up front and Bruno as a 10! I don't know why it doesn't work! Well it friggin doesn't. The proof is in the pudding. 5 years we have been trying to play Pogba in a midfield 2. 5 years! And we keep going on and on about it. Then we try to be a pressing team. See how well thats gone. We want to play like City and Liverpool. Well we friggin cant. We don't have pressing players. We dont have attacking fullbacks. We dont have wingers that can cross.

Do I want to play like prime Liverpool/City. Prime Barca? Of course I do. But we have to realize that we cant and we have to play to our strengths. Does that mean 5 at the back all the time. No of course not. But against big teams lets sit back and counter. Thats what we are good at. That was how Ole got good results against top sides. They cant live with us when we play like that. The problem we had was breaking down low block teams. Well now we have all sorts of options to do that. Play Pogba on the Left, Donny in midfield and Sancho on the RW if we want to. That should break down anybody.

Even when Mourinho was here I always thought. Well this is not a typical Mourinho team. He seemed to adapt to play a more attacking version. We need a manager to have the balls to play to our strengths. To drop big players. To park the bus constantly game after game when we have to. Just do anything and everything to win. Forget the style. Forget the United way. Just do whatever we can to win. The attacking play will still be there. We will still score goals. But more importantly we will win and with winning will breed confidence and more winning.

I still want Ole out. Just because he doesn't have the balls to stick to a system. He was always best at counterattacking. Then he buys plyers that make no sense and tries different styles and formations. Pogba left. Pogba in a 2. Buy DVB and dont play him. Buy Ronaldo and have no structure to accommodate him. It goes on and on. It makes no sense. Football is simple. Just get men behind the ball when we need to and then get more players that can break the lines when we need to. That's all.

Rant over! :)
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The real utd way under Fergie was to do whatever it takes to win a football match.

Against weaker opponents that was the Utd way that everyone goes on about and a lot of the time we were not the weaker team. Against title rivals we often parked the bus, e.g. played Phil Neville in midfield to man mark, whatever it took.

Fergie setup the team in the way he thought it gave them the best chance of winning depending on the opponent. Usualy he was right, against Barca when we lost in final, he admitted that he was wrong to try and out play them. If he could replay that game he would have parked the bus and if we had won no one would have complained

Fergie won a lot and you are so right, this breeds confidence and fear in the opposition.

In Fergie last season we didn’t play swashbuckling football at all no one complained then.

The Utd way is to win.
 
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tomaldinho1 said:
They are, that’s the whole point.
£400m+ and 3 years and we’re still best plying on the counter against a very average team.
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Which has nothing to do with the point I made or the post I replied to.
 
Switching to a much more defensive system was the right call. We have been far too open this season and our performances when we've tried to be more proactive and play on the front foot, have bordered on shambolic.

Although the 5-3-2 isn't going to see us play any teams off the park or challenge for big titles, it should bring some stability back to the side, which is what's needed now if we're to get out of our CL group and finish at least 4th in the league.
 
roonster09 said:
Yeah, team comes first. Yes we won't be able to fit all our attacking players but if 3 at the back gives better balance to the team then so be it. Players on the bench will have to fight for their position.

Chelsea have so many attacking players but they play only 2 of them in 11. Didn't stop them from winning. It should be always the team first.

Also manager should also start rotating the team.

Also I don't know what was the point of this thread, I didn't read OP properly. Ole isn't the man for the job. No point looking for positives. One or two games won't change anything.

Also agree with your last paragraph. We need to be proactive in decision making.
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This is very important given how the last two seasons ended with players on their last legs due to overuse. They key to rotation is to always keep fringe players involved and match sharp so that when they are absolutely needed they fit in seamlessly, something Fergie expertly handled from 06-09.

The thing though, is that Ole shouldn't have to be told something like this it has to come natural to him if really belongs at this level. The forward players we have, the attacking midfielders we have and the midfielders can both play a role e.g I don't think Matic and Donny would fail in this system, same with Sancho and Greenwood as splitting forwards with Pogba/Bruno/Donny as the AM/false 9. Billy, Jones and Lingard can have roles too.
 
He did what he needed to do, shore up the midfield and defence by sticking numbers in there and then rely on the big name strikers up front to finish chances, against a desperately poor spurs. Don’t let it fool you however that your problems have disappeared.

The game last week was pretty much the easiest game we’ve had all season bar Watford - opposition like Brighton yesterday and Brentford a few weeks ago was a vastly different kettle of fish. That should be a crushing indictment on your manager considering the resources and players he has at his disposal compared to those sides.

It‘s remarkable how the discourse on here mimics to a thread what I observed on various LFC forums during the pre-klopp years. Every comfortable victory led by individualistic displays by the likes of Suarez and gerrard producing knee-jerk triumphalist threads (‘where are all the BR haters now’ etc etc etc) followed by several inept performances when the tactical and personnel shortcomings were again laid bare. Sound familiar?
 
Infra-red said:
Switching to a much more defensive system was the right call. We have been far too open this season and our performances when we've tried to be more proactive and play on the front foot, have bordered on shambolic.

Although the 5-3-2 isn't going to see us play any teams off the park or challenge for big titles, it should bring some stability back to the side, which is what's needed now if we're to get out of our CL group and finish at least 4th in the league.
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If that's the ceiling of our ambitions after our spending and looking at our squad, Ole (the manager) should be shot from a cannon so that even his shadow isn't anywhere near OT. Absolutely shambolic that we have to keep reducing our targets and also to bear a very defensive set up because he cannot set his team up to play coherent football.
 
el_loco_bielsa said:
He did what he needed to do, shore up the midfield and defence by sticking numbers in there and then rely on the big name strikers up front to finish chances, against a desperately poor spurs. Don’t let it fool you however that your problems have disappeared.

The game last week was pretty much the easiest game we’ve had all season bar Watford - opposition like Brighton yesterday and Brentford a few weeks ago was a vastly different kettle of fish. That should be a crushing indictment on your manager considering the resources and players he has at his disposal compared to those sides.

It‘s remarkable how the discourse on here mimics to a thread what I observed on various LFC forums during the pre-klopp years. Every comfortable victory led by individualistic displays by the likes of Suarez and gerrard producing knee-jerk triumphalist threads (‘where are all the BR haters now’ etc etc etc) followed by several inept performances when the tactical and personnel shortcomings were again laid bare. Sound familiar?
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Good post, but I don’t think Utd fans are falling for Oles crap this time.
 
Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell said:
Hope to see Cavani and Ronaldo become a regular strike partnership. Sancho, Rashford and Greenwood can fight for the scraps. It's about what's best for the club and these two will deliver (without needing 5 chances to score 1).
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Cavani will be gone next season and who knows about Ronaldo if we don't make the CL. Whats best for the club in the long term may not be what's best in the short term. Also Rashford scored with his single chance yesterday, like he did against Leicester, so I don't know what your comment on the brackets is about.
 
Ixion said:
Cavani will be gone next season and who knows about Ronaldo if we don't make the CL. Whats best for the club in the long term may not be what's best in the short term. Also Rashford scored with his single chance yesterday, like he did against Leicester, so I don't know what your comment on the brackets is about.
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Funny that, because against Everton Rashford wasted some easy chances and rattled the bar if memory serves right. He still looked like a raw, unnutured talent.

Rashford blows hot and cold.
 
TheRedDevil2019 said:
Funny that, because against Everton Rashford wasted some easy chances and rattled the bar if memory serves right. He still looked like a raw, unnutured talent.

Rashford blows hot and cold.
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Difficult for him since he didn't play against Everton.

He has just come back from surgery and hardly trained and people still hold him to standards like no one else.
 
Livewire1974 said:
Takes me back to the time when Carlos Queiroz was responsible for enforcing a 3/5 at the back, which was against the "United Way" and many were pissed off.
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I'm intrigued by this. Can't remember this happening at all. Do you have a link to a match report?
 
Infra-red said:
Switching to a much more defensive system was the right call. We have been far too open this season and our performances when we've tried to be more proactive and play on the front foot, have bordered on shambolic.

Although the 5-3-2 isn't going to see us play any teams off the park or challenge for big titles, it should bring some stability back to the side, which is what's needed now if we're to get out of our CL group and finish at least 4th in the league.
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Exactly the reasons why he should have been fired last Sunday
 
Plant0x84 said:
It’s actually very striking how quiet it is on here tonight. It seems a large proportion of our fan base aren’t happy unless they are miserable. Sad really.

Well done to Ole and the team for shutting them up! I for one thought it was a very balanced and impressive tactical performance, and obviously a great result - especially with the mighty Klopp and Lord Pep both dropping points.
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Ole has always done well with his deep sitting, counter football. Thing is it won't win you any serious silverware. Just qualifying for the CL and nothing more will not cut it this season, it will be considered a failure by everyone except the most delusional.

To play counter football with the quality players he has is a waste of talent but I understand he went defensive after the trashing Liverpool gave us. I think all fans of the club wanted Ole to do well but we are United fans first and foremost and right now we have a manager who won't get the very best of talented players at his disposal.

The Liverpool game wasn't a freak event, he has during his whole management had periods where we look absolutely shit, this is a sign that he depends on the brilliance of his players to deliver instead of implementing a tactic that will give the players something to fall back on and stability to our form.

I wanted Ole to do well here, would have been so romantic but he simply isn't ready for this level of football.
 
Ixion said:
Cavani will be gone next season and who knows about Ronaldo if we don't make the CL. Whats best for the club in the long term may not be what's best in the short term. Also Rashford scored with his single chance yesterday, like he did against Leicester, so I don't know what your comment on the brackets is about.
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We're in a crisis situation. It's best for the club to get experience on the pitch and weather this storm. Cavani and Ronaldo need to be first choice - they clearly can't play every game for 90 mins so there will be plenty of game time dor others, and Sancho/Greenwood/Rashford need to be professional and take their chances when they come.

Yes Rashford scored from 1 chance yesterday - but if you think he's a clinical striker then you're wilfully ignoring the years he's played for us and why managers prefer him out wide and not up front.

We've seen in many games this season we've been very wasteful in front of goal. Games we go on to lose or draw. Whereas Cavani and Ronaldo are clinical.
 
Loved it! Ole and the players made it incredibly hard to criticise them, City losing back to back games (no headlines or drama created) Liverpool dropping points (meh)...you could feel the disappointment on Sky Sports that they couldn't slag off United.

Perfect performance :devil:
 
Green_Red said:
Where was your positivity when United were losing? That's right, you were in hiding. Only a fool would look at our current run of form and try to play a positive tune. Our squad should be dispatching Spurs 3-0 away. We had two players worth £160 million on the bench for gods sake.

Ole made the right formation and personnel choice for the first time this season yesterday. That's what the negativity is focused on, our managers inability to make the correct choices pre game and in game. If it gets better then great, but our current run of form suggests this won't last long.
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You haven’t seen my start of something thread then? That awful performance and utter humiliation last week could prove to be a catalyst for positive change. Obviously one game proves nothing, but if we beat Atalanta we’re all but qualified in the CL and if we take points off City we’re right back in the hunt at the top of the table. Our squad is very capable of putting a great run together, just as it is capable of appalling performances. I choose not to engage in negativity and instead hope that things will get better and better. I still believe this squad and manager together can lift silverware this season, but if they don’t then I’m all up for a review and a change at the end of the season. If that constitutes hiding to you then so be it.
 
roonster09 said:
Which has nothing to do with the point I made or the post I replied to.
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Ok but that is in response to your next comment. Hence why I bolded it.

Your original point was you watch every second of the game and didn’t see a back 7. Given we sat in and countered, I’m assuming the poster you were replying to didn’t literally mean we played with 5 CBS and 2 Wing backs (I’m also assuming you knew this…) so it just seems highly pedantic if your point was that we were defensive and played a back 7, of which two are deeper CMs, versus we played a back 7.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Ok but that is in response to your next comment. Hence why I bolded it.

Your original point was you watch every second of the game and didn’t see a back 7. Given we sat in and countered, I’m assuming the poster you were replying to didn’t literally mean we played with 5 CBS and 2 Wing backs (I’m also assuming you knew this…) so it just seems highly pedantic if your point was that we were defensive and played a back 7, of which two are deeper CMs, versus we played a back 7.
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That's a different argument. Ole's playing principles are not good enough and we won't win the league.

Yes, we didn't play with back 7.

The poster I had discussion with said we had 7 defenders in defensive line, that never happen except when defending set pieces.

NK86 said:
We clearly went 7 at the back many times in the second half, all absolutely in a straight line. No trying to press, just holding a line of 7 players near our penalty box.
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It's not pedantic, this never happened. We have 100s of reasons to criticize Ole, so not sure why people have to make things up.
 
Don't get me wrong u am delighted that we won. But the main issue is the amount of money this guy has spent and has nothing to show for it. Can you imagine how much better that money could have been if invested in the stadium and fan zones? He has bloated squad which was a criticism of Jose.

The biggest achievement ole has at being a manager...is managing Manchester United. Just let that sink in.
 
One thing I took from yesterday is that these players are thoroughly professional no matter what their views or feelings may be. Let's not criticise them for a lack of effort or not caring again, because Liverpool just clearly had our pants down tactically. I don't understand how anybody could blame the players for that result now when it's sandwiched between the Atalanta comeback and yesterday's win. Why on earth would they decide they couldn't be bothered for the biggest game of the 3, but turn up for the game before and after?

I still feel the same re our manager, it'd take a lot to change that view that has been formed over 3 years. But I'm happy knowing that whoever comes in next are inheriting a good bunch with a hell of a lot of quality.
 
People mention that we will be level with City, if we beat them next week. We will be equal on points with massively underperforming City side, which is not where we want to be... If they are having a bad season and we are on par with them, that doesn't make our season good.
 
Honestly it makes no difference to me if he wins his next two. Unless he mounts a genuine title challenge/European run there's utterly no point in continuing with this man. Last Sunday will not be easily forgotten and our ambitions at the beginning of this season shouldn't either.
 
So Ole fluked a win by ironically being a poor imitation of his potential replacement against a floundering Spurs that are in relegation form. Nothing much to see here. Hopefully the board already have Conte in place and are just waiting for the break to cut things off cleanly (highly doubt it since they're all clueless about football and know this United Way drivel will fool the 'Gary Neville' fans).
 
Plant0x84 said:
It’s actually very striking how quiet it is on here tonight. It seems a large proportion of our fan base aren’t happy unless they are miserable. Sad really.

Well done to Ole and the team for shutting them up! I for one thought it was a very balanced and impressive tactical performance, and obviously a great result - especially with the mighty Klopp and Lord Pep both dropping points.
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Pretty much it.....some folk want to lose so he be sacked, I'm not even sure what makes them happy at this stage. Surely if we went on a run we all be happy but seems that be a bad thing as means Ole stays.
 
NK86 said:
Or you know, people come on to vent here when they see United absolutely in shambles regularly, and also realize how many such false dawns we have seen.

Fans like yourself love to gloat over 1 decent performance. I am not sure of your stance over Ole, however mine's clear and 1-2 decent performances from the team isn't going to change it. Even a broken clock gets to be right twice a day.
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Nonsesne mate, lot of these people where moaning no matter what we were doing on the pitch.


They've Sucked life out of last couple years. Fair enough last weekend brought lot of folk over to the needs sacked, and that's ok we been shite this season and last weekend was brutal but let's not pretend last weekend was the start of it for lot of people, they been here since he was appointed.


Not even sure why they even watch football
 
roonster09 said:
That's a different argument. Ole's playing principles are not good enough and we won't win the league.

Yes, we didn't play with back 7.

The poster I had discussion with said we had 7 defenders in defensive line, that never happen except when defending set pieces.



It's not pedantic, this never happened. We have 100s of reasons to criticize Ole, so not sure why people have to make things up.
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This is true, even after Matic came in, there was never a moment where we go straight 7 at the back, unless it's a set piece. The most defensive shape last night was when Matic filled in as center back making it almost like 6 at the back but it happened like once or twice.

RSpPikZu78l1.png
 
matt10000 said:
Extremely toxic? hahahahahaa
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Throughout Ole's tenure we've had highs of very good performances combined with extreme lows of very bad performances (our defensive stats for the season being in relegation form by the Liverpool game shows this). All with no clear style of play and no trophies to show for and it won't be any different this season.

So extremely toxic, yes. Unless you think it's normal for us to go trophyless for so long.
 
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