Klopp to leave Liverpool at the end of the season

cyberman said:
You can’t say he’s misreading the charts and then come out with this.
by the way it’s once. Liverpool have won the league once in this period
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It's definitely misreading the data. Just taking isolated data points to create a narrative.

If you ask any neutral football fan who performed better in the last 8 years Liverpool under Klopp or United - the vast majority will say Liverpool.

They won the Champions league, they were in the final 3 times, they won a PL title, they had 3 seasons with 90+ points.

What has United achieved in the meantime?
 
Wiesenlooser said:
It's definitely misreading the data. Just taking isolated data points to create a narrative.

If you ask any neutral football fan who performed better in the last 8 years Liverpool under Klopp or United - the vast majority will say Liverpool.

They won the Champions league, they were in the final 3 times, they won a PL title, they had 3 seasons with 90+ points.

What has United achieved in the meantime?
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It's actually reading the data literally - so no, it's not misreading. You are just adding more context to it, which is absolutely fine.

However, a manager's legacy isn't defined by the amount of finals lost or the points gleaned when finishing 2nd. Those things don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

As for the bolded - not much, but then again this is Utd's worst period in decades. The important element isn't that though - it's that even in this barren period, Utd haven't achieved that much less, simply because he didn't actually achieve crazy things, unlike what people are trying to make out. They won a CL and a PL (and a couple of domestic cups?).
 
Rooney in Paris said:
It's actually reading the data literally - so no, it's not misreading. You are just adding more context to it, which is absolutely fine.

However, a manager's legacy isn't defined by the amount of finals lost or the points gleaned when finishing 2nd. Those things don't matter in the grand scheme of things.

As for the bolded - not much, but then again this is Utd's worst period in decades. The important element isn't that though - it's that even in this barren period, Utd haven't achieved that much less, simply because he didn't actually achieve crazy things, unlike what people are trying to make out. They won a CL and a PL (and a couple of domestic cups?).
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I don't agree with this, purely because context really is everything. Think of the United side who lost twice to Barca in CL finals, we would be considered the best club side of all time had we won both, maybe even just one, of those (3 CL finals in 4 years and the year we weren't in the final was when we were battering Bayern and then Rafael got sent off at OT in the QF). At that period through 06/07 to 09/10 we were playing at such an elite level, winning a competitive PL and doing well in a much stronger CL than now.

Klopp had a period, albeit it wasn't that long, where I do think they reached a truly elite level, albeit just below where we were given they could not add multiple PL's. But to do it without any form of financial doping or taking over a dominant team is commendable. Now the perfect scenario is they completely slump after his announcement and he's forced to leave mid season, souring his legacy and we then enjoy Pool's slow slide down the table to the quagmire of crap we currently reside in.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I don't agree with this, purely because context really is everything. Think of the United side who lost twice to Barca in CL finals, we would be considered the best club side of all time had we won both, maybe even just one, of those (3 CL finals in 4 years and the year we weren't in the final was when we were battering Bayern and then Rafael got sent off at OT in the QF). At that period through 06/07 to 09/10 we were playing at such an elite level, winning a competitive PL and doing well in a much stronger CL than now.

Klopp had a period, albeit it wasn't that long, where I do think they reached a truly elite level, albeit just below where we were given they could not add multiple PL's. But to do it without any form of financial doping or taking over a dominant team is commendable. Now the perfect scenario is they completely slump after his announcement and he's forced to leave mid season, souring his legacy and we then enjoy Pool's slow slide down the table to the quagmire of crap we currently reside in.
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Not sure I understand what your first paragraph, which is a hypothetical that didn't happen, is trying to say?

Klopp is being made out to be one of the best managers as much for the stuff he has done as for the stuff he hasn't done, but almost did. Lost finals, finishing second, not being financially doped competitors, have somehow become notches in the "plus" column. It's absurd.

SAF is the best manager ever, or is in the conversation, because of everything he did do at Utd and Aberdeen. Not because he lost 2 finals to Barça or came close to winning 7 leagues in a row against clubs such as Chelsea or City.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
Not sure I understand what your first paragraph, which is a hypothetical that didn't happen, is trying to say?

Klopp is being made out to be one of the best managers as much for the stuff he has done as for the stuff he hasn't done, but almost did. Lost finals, finishing second, not being financially doped competitors, have somehow become notches in the "plus" column. It's absurd.

SAF is the best manager ever, or is in the conversation, because of everything he did do at Utd and Aberdeen. Not because he lost 2 finals to Barça or came close to winning 7 leagues in a row against clubs such as Chelsea or City.
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As in 1 result (let's say we beat Barca in 10/11) can completely change how a team is talked about but it's literally just a single game. The post seemed to be saying it doesn't really matter if he got to some CL finals whereas, in my opinion, you can use a bit of context. It's not some random isolated cup run of lucky park the bus football i.e. Di Matteo at Chelsea, it's a period over a number of seasons of sustained success. Re SAF, the common (and really only) criticism that does regularly appear of him is we underperformed in Europe, which, again, is a reason to add some context like I did in the post before this; bad luck in key games, much stronger CL than now. It is much easier to win the CL now. Conversely, it's also context people ignore when they say Pep is the best ever - both CL wins with Barca they got genuinely atrocious ref decisions to get through to both finals against us + the obvious issue with celebrating a treble when cheating but, someone like yourself might say, 'he has won 3 CL finals, therefore he is better than x, y or z'.

I'm not sure anyone is comparing SAF to Klopp anyway, there's levels between them, but the latter is probably the best all round manager in the PL the last few seasons in my mind. His time at Dortmund was also very impressive, arguably moreso than Pool. We should all be glad to see the back of him.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
As in 1 result (let's say we beat Barca in 10/11) can completely change how a team is talked about but it's literally just a single game.
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But... That's exaclty football? World Cup finals are just 1 game. All cup competition finals are 1 game. Provide as much context, that's fine. The historically great managers are those who have won things in those fine margins, that's what football excellence is.

Also, I don't know how getting to loads of finals and losing most of them somehow goes in favour of Klopp's legacy. If anything, it should be a black mark in his CV.

I am not disputing providing context to things, that's cool. But that's not really how legacies work.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
It's actually reading the data literally - so no, it's not misreading. You are just adding more context to it, which is absolutely fine.
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I'm not adding more context to it, I'm adding additional data points. the data points stated weren't wrong. using these data points as representative for the entire performance, however is.


As for the bolded - not much, but then again this is Utd's worst period in decades. The important element isn't that though - it's that even in this barren period, Utd haven't achieved that much less, simply because he didn't actually achieve crazy things, unlike what people are trying to make out. They won a CL and a PL (and a couple of domestic cups?).
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Keep gaslighting yourself believing that a club that won the PL and CL didn't achieve much more than over the same timeframe than a club who didn't.
 
Wiesenlooser said:
I'm not adding more context to it, I'm adding additional data points. the data points stated weren't wrong. using these data points as representative for the entire performance, however is.




Keep gaslighting yourself believing that a club that won the PL and CL didn't achieve much more than over the same timeframe than a club who didn't.
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Ah, use of the word gaslighting in this kind of context. I'm out. Have fun!
 
Rooney in Paris said:
But... That's exaclty football? World Cup finals are just 1 game. All cup competition finals are 1 game. Provide as much context, that's fine. The historically great managers are those who have won things in those fine margins, that's what football excellence is.

Also, I don't know how getting to loads of finals and losing most of them somehow goes in favour of Klopp's legacy. If anything, it should be a black mark in his CV.
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By your logic United has done much better barely making out of the group phases. Seriously - do you really believe this? Do you really believe making it to a CL finale isn't an achievement?
 
Wiesenlooser said:
It's definitely misreading the data. Just taking isolated data points to create a narrative.

If you ask any neutral football fan who performed better in the last 8 years Liverpool under Klopp or United - the vast majority will say Liverpool.

They won the Champions league, they were in the final 3 times, they won a PL title, they had 3 seasons with 90+ points.

What has United achieved in the meantime?
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It’s not misreading the data, it’s laying it out in its purist form.
This constant praise for failing and nearly getting there really has to stop.
 
cyberman said:
It’s not misreading the data, it’s laying it out in its purist form.
This constant praise for failing and nearly getting there really has to stop.
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Deliberately looking for data points that make Liverpool look worse than United while Liverpool objectively had greater achievements is misreading the data.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
But... That's exaclty football? World Cup finals are just 1 game. All cup competition finals are 1 game. Provide as much context, that's fine. The historically great managers are those who have won things in those fine margins, that's what football excellence is.

Also, I don't know how getting to loads of finals and losing most of them somehow goes in favour of Klopp's legacy. If anything, it should be a black mark in his CV.

I am not disputing providing context to things, that's cool. But that's not really how legacies work.
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I'm not saying it goes in favour, I'm saying it's better than not getting to those finals. Case in point.

Let's say Klopp's record at Pool is exactly what it is but they went out in the QF of every CL season apart from the one they beat Spurs in. His legacy looks way crapper than it does in reality, surely you get that?

There's also the context, and this is why SAF is so impressive, of winning things with a non dominant team (Aberdeen/Dortmund) albeit SAF won more + then actually having to build something to win major honours. Again, SAF's United legacy dwarfs Klopp's Pool legacy but then that goes for basically all managers.

If you look at the PL people generally point to SAF, Wenger, Jose, Pep, Klopp as the best managers. Only three of them have won the PL and CL with their PL club and one of them cheated. I personally think Wenger is probably No2 on the list after some reflection but I'd put Klopp third because he didn't come into a oligarch/state club (Jose/Pep), he hasn't cheated (Pep) and you can point to a 5 year period where they were challenging (as in actually challenging not like our 2nd place finishes) for the PL and CL regularly.
 
Wiesenlooser said:
true but it’s completely misreading the charts.

How many times was United in the CL final during Klopp‘s spell?

how many times did United win the league?

hiw many times did United have a season above 90 points?

The truth is, Klopp‘s Liverpool absolutely destroyed United during his reign. I can’t imagine when was the last time anyone ever seriously considered United a contender for the CL title.

Klopp should have won more titles, although he was unlucky scoring over 90 points 3 times yielded only one PL title.
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He didn't though. Winning PL titles is a matter of bottle. It's why Arsenal didn't win it last year, and why Spurs never hold together a title run. He won 1 PL and 1 CL in 9 years. That's great, it's not elite.
 
Wiesenlooser said:
It's definitely misreading the data. Just taking isolated data points to create a narrative.

If you ask any neutral football fan who performed better in the last 8 years Liverpool under Klopp or United - the vast majority will say Liverpool.

They won the Champions league, they were in the final 3 times, they won a PL title, they had 3 seasons with 90+ points.

What has United achieved in the meantime?
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We've been awful over the past 10 years. So him finishing below us so often doesn't make us look great but him look inconsistent.
 
Wiesenlooser said:
true but it’s completely misreading the charts.

How many times was United in the CL final during Klopp‘s spell?

how many times did United win the league?

hiw many times did United have a season above 90 points?

The truth is, Klopp‘s Liverpool absolutely destroyed United during his reign. I can’t imagine when was the last time anyone ever seriously considered United a contender for the CL title.

Klopp should have won more titles, although he was unlucky scoring over 90 points 3 times yielded only one PL title.
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What a stupid post.
 
I like the guy, and people trying to downplay his achievements are wide of the mark. Only one thing stopped them from converting those two 1 point behind finishes into two more league titles - depth. In both runs Liverpool played the same front 3 in Europe and in the league, 3 times a week, whilst Pep almost always rotated the front 3 between the weekend and midweek. If Liverpool and City both had the same spending power, Liverpool win far more. To come so close despite having something like £500m less net spend before last season is to be commended.

That said, I fully expect them to return to mediocrity once Klopp leaves. They'll go for Alonso, but 1 season managing in the bum league that is the Bundesliga means nothing. Also means United might start being good again, as for some reason we can't both be good at the same time.
 
Wiesenlooser said:
Deliberately looking for data points that make Liverpool look worse than United while Liverpool objectively had greater achievements is misreading the data.
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It’s not made to look worse, it’s fact.
Winning titles isn’t meant to be easy so woe is fecking me when Liverpool aren’t good enough for 9/10 of seasons to do so.
 
So what is to blame for him to throw his toys out and go home? Snow, wind, rain or not getting throw ins? I bet it's from all the long balls he just hates them. Fantastic manager who plays lovely football and gets people and players fired up. The league will be poorer without him.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
I'm not saying it goes in favour, I'm saying it's better than not getting to those finals. Case in point.

Let's say Klopp's record at Pool is exactly what it is but they went out in the QF of every CL season apart from the one they beat Spurs in. His legacy looks way crapper than it does in reality, surely you get that?

There's also the context, and this is why SAF is so impressive, of winning things with a non dominant team (Aberdeen/Dortmund) albeit SAF won more + then actually having to build something to win major honours. Again, SAF's United legacy dwarfs Klopp's Pool legacy but then that goes for basically all managers.

If you look at the PL people generally point to SAF, Wenger, Jose, Pep, Klopp as the best managers. Only three of them have won the PL and CL with their PL club and one of them cheated. I personally think Wenger is probably No2 on the list after some reflection but I'd put Klopp third because he didn't come into a oligarch/state club (Jose/Pep), he hasn't cheated (Pep) and you can point to a 5 year period where they were challenging (as in actually challenging not like our 2nd place finishes) for the PL and CL regularly.
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5 year period? I don’t think so. Agree with everything Rooney in Paris is saying. Winning matters but klopp gets over the top praise for coming second and reaching finals.
 
Fully Fledged said:
We've been awful over the past 10 years. So him finishing below us so often doesn't make us look great but him look inconsistent.
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I tried having this argument but was basically shouted down. How can it be said he consistently challenged city when he finished below United during our shittest decade for a long time 4 times in 9 years.
 
Not sure how any fan of football can be anything other than in admiration of Klopp. He's an incredible manager. The football he got Liverpool playing is phenomenal. If he'd won one of every trophy at United, reached multiple CL finals, finished runners up with 99 points, had us playing lightning fast attacking football, and had thrashed our fiercest rivals 7-0, we'd be crying out for a statue to be built.
Fecking hell we have people praising Ten Hag for winning a shitty league cup and finishing 3rd. Liverpool were even lower down the table than us when Klopp took charge.
Swap Pep with Klopp and City would've won a couple trebles by now.
 
AndySmith1990 said:
Not sure how any fan of football can be anything other than in admiration of Klopp. He's an incredible manager. The football he got Liverpool playing is phenomenal. If he'd won one of every trophy at United, reached multiple CL finals, finished runners up with 99 points, had us playing lightning fast attacking football, and had thrashed our fiercest rivals 7-0, we'd be crying out for a statue to be built.
Fecking hell we have people praising Ten Hag for winning a shitty league cup and finishing 3rd. Liverpool were even lower down the table than us when Klopp took charge.
Swap Pep with Klopp and City would've won a couple trebles by now.
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:lol: crying out for a statue to be built for being runners up and reaching finals. Good one
 
Zlatan 7 said:
5 year period? I don’t think so. Agree with everything Rooney in Paris is saying. Winning matters but klopp gets over the top praise for coming second and reaching finals.
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17/18 to 21/22 they were in 3 of 5 CL finals winning 1. They made the k/o stages every year in that period.
Same period their PL finishes were: 4,2,1,3,2 (both those 2nd place finishes being by 1 point) and picked up both domestic cups in that last season.

I get we don’t like Pool but people saying they haven’t won a lot more than us when you actually look at the ‘data’ and downplaying their success is just dumb. There are two major trophies in club football. They won both.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
17/18 to 21/22 they were in 3 of 5 CL finals winning 1. They made the k/o stages every year in that period.
Same period their PL finishes were: 4,2,1,3,2 (both those 2nd place finishes being by 1 point) and picked up both domestic cups in that last season.

I get we don’t like Pool but people saying they haven’t won a lot more than us when you actually look at the ‘data’ and downplaying their success is just dumb. There are two major trophies in club football. They won both.
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They’ve won bigger trophies for sure and I’m not down playing that, we’d obviously swap the run with them. But they haven’t won a lot more trophies. Not for this so called dominance they’ve had over everyone
 
tomaldinho1 said:
17/18 to 21/22 they were in 3 of 5 CL finals winning 1. They made the k/o stages every year in that period.
Same period their PL finishes were: 4,2,1,3,2 (both those 2nd place finishes being by 1 point) and picked up both domestic cups in that last season.

I get we don’t like Pool but people saying they haven’t won a lot more than us when you actually look at the ‘data’ and downplaying their success is just dumb. There are two major trophies in club football. They won both.
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Aye. Utd won 4 league titles and got to 3 CL finals over 5 years? And people like to think he's up there as one of the best PL managers and compare him to SAF....

He's done a good job at Liverpool, but they've had 2 or 3 really good shots at the league over the 9 years or whatever it's been. A glorified cup team, can't wait for this funeral procession to be over.
 
Zlatan 7 said:
They’ve won bigger trophies for sure and I’m not down playing that, we’d obviously swap the run with them. But they haven’t won a lot more trophies. Not for this so called dominance they’ve had over everyone
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No one said they dominated European Football. But they were contenders for the CL title for many years. When was United contender for the CL title in the last decade? Heck, winning the CL alone is H U G E.
 
Wiesenlooser said:
No one said they dominated European Football. But they were contenders for the CL title for many years. When was United contender for the CL title in the last decade? Heck, winning the CL alone is H U G E.
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What. I didn’t say United were. You’ve clearly got a hard on for United
 
Wiesenlooser said:
No one said they dominated European Football. But they were contenders for the CL title for many years. When was United contender for the CL title in the last decade? Heck, winning the CL alone is H U G E.
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What's your obsession with Utd? How is comparing his performances vs Utd of the past 10 years relevant? What are you even arguing?
 
Bayern fans are hoping Klopp will be their next manger. So they became Klopp defenders while ironically defending Pool at the same time. Guess what hes burned out and will not manage you for some time. Enjoy Hairy Kane curse.
 
marktan said:
I like the guy, and people trying to downplay his achievements are wide of the mark. Only one thing stopped them from converting those two 1 point behind finishes into two more league titles - depth. In both runs Liverpool played the same front 3 in Europe and in the league, 3 times a week, whilst Pep almost always rotated the front 3 between the weekend and midweek. If Liverpool and City both had the same spending power, Liverpool win far more.
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They didn't play the same front three in the run-in '22 though as they had at least four good players to pick from (and often played a front four rather than front three). Firmino was a fifth, but he was mostly injured. It's true that in the run-in in '19 they played pretty much the same front three in each game, but they won the Champions League and the last 9 PL games, so it wasn't like they were hurt by only having those players.

Also, the thing about Liverpool is that they had Mane and Salah, both incredible for such a long time and so good that they were never going to be rotated anyway. They're both better than any wing forwards that City has had under Pep. Do you honestly think Pep would have rotated Salah if he had him? It's not like he has been rotating Haaland or Rodri these past seasons.
 
Amir said:
Then you'll get people who'll tell you Pep's achievement are hollow and maybe he'll even lose those trophies.

Which means that both Pep and Klopp aren't that great. Which is kind of weird.
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It’s not weird though. Everyone would agree they’re the two best managers in the world, and they’ve both become historical icons too.

But one of them is accused of being apart of a cheating institution, and his former club was also accused of stepping outside the lines.

Whilst the other has two second place finishes and a title to his name. Which is great and we know how hard it is to win the PL, but people on here have been suggesting he is in the same tier as Sir Alex, whilst others have him as the 2-3rd best manager in PL history.

There doesn’t need to be this big jump from one extreme to the other. Outside of redcafe, the majority of fans have Pep as second or third greatest ever (before we know the outcome of charges), and they have Klopp at 5th. Mind you there has been 280 managers in the PL, so it’s hardly a slight against him.
 
Rooney in Paris said:
What's your obsession with Utd? How is comparing his performances vs Utd of the past 10 years relevant? What are you even arguing?
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It was literally the whole argument. see post #1109. The whole point was that the user wanted to find data points that implied Klopp didn't do better than United throughout the spell. I said that's kust reading the data wrong by using isolated data points.

I don't have any issue with United, just the idea that United did comparatively as well as Liverpool during Klopp is crazy, given he won the Premier League and the Champions League and United won neither of those.

Don't worry, I'm sure times will change and the pendulum swings the other direction. :)
 
tenpoless said:
Bayern fans are hoping Klopp will be their next manger. So they became Klopp defenders while ironically defending Pool at the same time. Guess what hes burned out and will not manage you for some time. Enjoy Hairy Kane curse.
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Nah, I see Klopp more as the German national coach. I don't think his style of football suits us well. He's not a manager I am waiting for.
 
Wiesenlooser said:
true but it’s completely misreading the charts.

How many times was United in the CL final during Klopp‘s spell?

how many times did United win the league?

hiw many times did United have a season above 90 points?

The truth is, Klopp‘s Liverpool absolutely destroyed United during his reign. I can’t imagine when was the last time anyone ever seriously considered United a contender for the CL title.

Klopp should have won more titles, although he was unlucky scoring over 90 points 3 times yielded only one PL title.
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:lol:
 
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