Being sacked at chelsea is hardly noteworthy. And i disagree. At this point the EPL is like Game of Thrones.
Kieran McKenna | Close to signing long term deal to stay at Ipswich
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are here to talk about United's dreadful home defeat at the hands of Big Ange's Tottenham Hotspur. Should this have been the end of Ten Hag? How long does he actually have left? And does Nik finally want ETH out?!
I don't agree with this logic. A panic appointment is appointing someone for any other reason than that they fit with the long-term vision of the club. We still do not know what sort of vision the footballing hierarchy will have, or have already agreed upon, nor do we know whether the focus is on the long-term at the cost of short-term results, or if it's just spoken of as long-term when in reality it is really short-term (which is the last 10 years). The two do not really go hand in hand, there is far too much to do at the club if the focus is genuinely on the long-term, acknowledging past mistakes and stop chasing losses, taking a step back in order to take two steps forwards.
Anyhow, I am not saying by virtue of a long-term approach McKenna is the best fit, but I am saying that if the focus is on the long-term than he doesn't come under the immediate pressure that people are suggesting, and I would expect the club hierarchy to lay out that vision in the coming months as we trim the squad and start building a younger, far more energetic squad.
you can't be serious? Even with Ten Hag I would expect us to have a better point tally next season. If we're hiring McKenna, it should be because we think he will improve our points tally by a good margin.4-2-3-1 transition football, soacking up pressure and then attacking in numbers to create overloads and overwelm the opposition defence. Similar to how we played under Solskjaer (unsurprisingly).
Thomas Frank would employ a similar style. Tuchel is a Pep disciple and favours possession football. Pochettino - something in between.
This is the best article out there on McKenna's play style. https://www.coachesvoice.com/cv/kieran-mckenna-tactics-ipswich-town/
A lot of myths being posted in this thread. Ipswich press very high no idea where this talk has come from that they sit back and soak up pressure.
"Ipswich produced the most attacking football in the 2023-24 Championship on the way to finishing second, with their 15.6 shots per 90 being more than any of the division’s 23 other sides. Out of possession, their PPDA (as a proxy of pressing intensity) was among the most intense in the second tier, and speaks to the progressive style of play that is highly regarded in the modern game — on and off the ball."
A lot of myths being posted in this thread. Ipswich press very high no idea where this talk has come from that they sit back and soak up pressure.
"Ipswich produced the most attacking football in the 2023-24 Championship on the way to finishing second, with their 15.6 shots per 90 being more than any of the division’s 23 other sides. Out of possession, their PPDA (as a proxy of pressing intensity) was among the most intense in the second tier, and speaks to the progressive style of play that is highly regarded in the modern game — on and off the ball."
I hope if we don't go for him, he sticks with Ipswich and waits for the inevitable sacking of Tuchel by us.
Perhaps not the thread for it, but I wasn't optimistic going into what proved to be Ole's last season and that wasn't solely down to the signing of Ronaldo. Our 2nd place finish the season prior might have looked decent on paper, but our performances were largely unconvincing, we rarely controlled games and had no real patterns to our play. We didn't have a sustainable way to win football matches. I predicted we'd drop out of the top 4 the following season, which is exactly what transpired.
Fluking a win against PSG in R16 and finishing 3rd in a CL group is better than what EtH delivered this season, but it's hardly anything to shout about.
Ultimately, I look back at Ole's tenure unfavourably as I never truly felt we were going anywhere with him.
There are quite a few of us who have reiterated this point. I've actually been Ole out after his first half season under United, Mourinho out in his 2nd season, and Ten Hag out back in like November.
There has been only 1 demand many of us have reiterated. That is to play good football. All of our managers post Fergie have failed at this very basic ask. The reason why this is demanded by a few of us, is because we believe history has shown that the best sides all play football that is entertaining, maybe apart from Simeone. But even Simeone, the players understand their instructions and make best use of their style. Everything feels optimized. They're dangerous when they get a chance. Maybe I shouldn't use the word entertaining because that is subjective and people find Pep's football boring too.
This very basic asks shows that players have chemistry, and don't rely on individual brilliance most of the time.
The underlying metrics will show that even if United finish with a bad result over the season, that they will have a much better season(s) if they continue playing at that level, or at least you will be able to see very clear signs that the players are taking to the manager's instructions well that you can expect improvement the next season, providing the instructions are not flawed like Ten Hag's.
If it was up to you, you would have sacked Klopp after his first 3/4 season with Liverpool. That's the entire problem with Ten Hag. The players don't look like the coaching is giving them clear benefits within the match, regardless of results. The underlying metrics show United should actually be worse than they really are. A clear indication that this is very much like Mourinho's 2017/18 season (except with even worse results - 8th place), and unlike Klopps 2017/18 season. In that season, results showed Mourinho > Klopp. Who prevailed the following seasons? The results from the previous season, or the performances (underlying metrics) from previous season?
Agree, sadly. There's been some weird nostalgia for those seasons lately but there were warning signs all through them, and we actually only squeezed into third place by the last two games in the first season on 66 points. Second season was better but the early champions league group stage exit and Europa League final defeat/performance soured things. A lot of people blame Ronaldo for that third season but we were never going anywhere other than a top 4 battle with that squad.
If one can get Shaw fit long enough to contribute, I would not risk giving him such a physically demanding task. I would instead have him join the back three and make Dalot continue being the one who often joins the build up and attack. Plus the former has showed he can adeptly play the CB role, so it would work perfectly in that case.
The midfield and how he works with Mainoo will be very interesting, as the kid has all the tools to play a number of roles in the middle. Mount is another one who could potentially thrive in a very dynamic and high pressing system. Obviously how he treats Rashford and Bruno will be critical to his success moving forward. If he gets them in line and puts them on a short leash to perform his instructions or get dropped, then he will have the rest of the team running through brickwalls for him.
Strongly disagree with this.
Martínez, Malacia, Hojlund, Mount and Onana are good additions and profiles Ole's United sides lacked when he was manager. Mainoo and Garnacho have burst onto the scene under ETH. Amad and Dalot have improved massively and weren't ready to be key players just yet, back in 2021. There will also be at least 4 significant arrivals this summer, but I wouldn't be surprised if that number was 5 or 6 by September 1. So that's 5 players that weren't at the club yet, 2 youth players who have broken into the first team, and 2 players who weren't at their current level back then. 9 players. And then you add 4-6 new players this summer.
Which players left since Ole was sacked? Pogba, Mata, Cavani, Matic, Lingard, Bailly, Garner, Pereira, Chong, Henderson, Elanga, Fred, Telles, Kovar, Greenwood, Fernandez, Varane. The only player here who's a big loss is Greenwood, but that's not the club's fault. Pogba was a good player with insane talent, but it didn't work out and he wanted to leave. Varane was decent but nowhere near irreplaceable. And then there's Sancho whose fate remains unknown. The rest were either declining and/or intent on leaving, not good enough, weren't even getting significant minutes, or were too young to be playing first team football at that point.
Overall:
Martínez, Malacia, Hojlund, Onana, Mainoo, Garnacho, Dalot, Amad + 4-6 new arrivals
OR
Pogba, Mata, Cavani, Matic, Lingard, Bailly, Garner, Pereira, Chong, Henderson, Elanga, Fred, Telles, Kovar, Greenwood, Fernandez, Varane, Sancho (potentially).
Which group of players are you going with?
It is hilarious to see some idiots keep talking about inexperience and that he should waste a few more years in some middling clubs, which should get him ready for the big job, as if there is some guide to be a top manager.
There are managers who have shown that they can get success and compete with zero experience, and plenty of managers with vast experience who failed.
The only thing that matters is ability, and people who are well informed clearly think he is talented.
There are managers who have shown that they can get success and compete with zero experience, and plenty of managers with vast experience who failed.
The only thing that matters is ability, and people who are well informed clearly think he is talented.
If it is to be him, I hope he is a successful, but I am so jaded I just feel 18 months from now we’ll have a lot of people (some of them the same people) waiting for him to be sacked and championing the next flavour and his style…
That Ole is a spotter of good talent?
Are we really at the point where we're talking about the qualities of Eric Ramsey?
My point is going there or staying at Ipswich will give Utd a better idea of whether he can manage in the Premier League. Maybe he is the next big British manager but it's an enormous gamble
Be great having an Irish manager at the club, seeing as we rarely have Irish players these days.
Is he ready, though?
There's been a few 'Pep was ready' posts but Pep was matriculated at Barca, becoming manager when they had prime-rib Messi, Xavi, Iniesta et al. McK will have McTom. Some magic needing a weave, there.
Now or never. Little point allowing him to 'cut his teeth' at BHA, as he won't win anything or finish any higher than de Zerbi. Besides, it's pure arrogance suggesting they as a feeder club.
Tuchel would be a sound appointment, all the same. If McK is not in Erne-ist (hey, you having that, Dave?) he'll be clipped within a season and replacements are not exactly ample. Tuchel will be snapped up by some hungry buck. Wind up with Poch, or worse, Sir Gareth.
Fraught times, but it will be great to have an Irish coach/manager/whatever.
Is he ready, though?
There's been a few 'Pep was ready' posts but Pep was matriculated at Barca, becoming manager when they had prime-rib Messi, Xavi, Iniesta et al. McK will have McTom. Some magic needing a weave, there.
Now or never. Little point allowing him to 'cut his teeth' at BHA, as he won't win anything or finish any higher than de Zerbi. Besides, it's pure arrogance suggesting they as a feeder club.
Tuchel would be a sound appointment, all the same. If McK is not in Erne-ist (hey, you having that, Dave?) he'll be clipped within a season and replacements are not exactly ample. Tuchel will be snapped up by some hungry buck. Wind up with Poch, or worse, Sir Gareth.
Fraught times, but it will be great to have an Irish coach/manager/whatever.
But we’re bigger. And have a better structure in place. I don’t want him here anyway. It’s to soon for him and going of reports a lot of our players didn’t like his training methods and think there not up to senior football standards.Because we're any better.
I think De Zerbi would be a good fit for you.
Would it though? I feel like apart from the Pep, Xabi, etc... examples we have Ole. Ole failed at Cardiff, and yet was able to get United top 4 twice. Does going to Brighton or staying at Ipswich prove he can't get United to top 4 at the very least? I don't think it's all that necessary. Feels like an unsubstantiated saying that has just been bought by everyone en masse.
I think we're hyping up the risk as something it's not.
Yeah, great so she's FDJ and you are United?
Nobody is saying he is without blame. Just that maybe McKenna is not an obvious upgrade.
Anyone saying anything else is just blinded by how much the want the current boss sacked. McKenna might work and if he does it'll be fantastic, but it's a gamble than every other post Ferguson appointment apart from Moyes. And even he was worse than I feared. Managing this club is one of the trickiest jobs in sport.
Pogba, Cavani, Matic, Henderson, De Gea, Fred, Greenwood, and Martial were part of the team between the 2019-2020 and 2020-2021 seasons. They played the best football and scored the most goals post-Sir Alex. I don't just focus on intangibles like potential, and by every metric, the Ole team had better players than the Erik team.
Ten Hag has presided over the worst season we have endured in the PL but he has also cost us time, money and progression as several of his signings will need to be ushered, at a great loss if I might add, out of the club. What McKenna could bring is the chance for a rebuild, understanding that we won't bother trophy engravers for a while, but with him and Ashworth plus Wilcox we could build something sustainable. The club and the team grows along with their manager.
McKenna has also achieved something special with Ipswich and along with his previous achievements at lower levels maybe he is a special manager like Pep, Alonso and Zidane. I don't see the harm of taking a chance on him especially if we don't give him sole decision making power on the ins and outs like we did with guys like Van Gaal, Mourinho and Ten Hag who proceeded to leave us with expensive, unbalanced and poor bloated squads. If he fails then so be it, we can move on and recover.
I think if McKenna is sensible about his career, he goes to Brighton. Brighton are a well run club and he gets to continue building his reputation without the pressures at a bigger club. But before he signs with them he should speak to United to inform them he's interested if the opportunity comes up again in 2 or 3 years (which it probably will looking at the short term mangers we seem to be interested in - Tuchel, Poch etc.).
Mourinho and Van Gaal were shoe-ins, won Leagues where ever they went and we were still strong as a club but they both failed. Ole didn't have the preparation of those two but I'd argue that he delivered on his first remit and couldn't take the team forward. Point being, you never actually know because according to your logic Jose and LVG should have bossed this assignment.
There is also a trend where tactical philosophy and a manager's ability to imprint it on a team is taking a more prominent role in these considerations than experience and track record. Most clubs looking for a manager this season are targeting taking a punt on the next Pep/Klopp because the ones currently in the game just aren't competing. Juve and Bayern have taken a similar approach and looking at Barcelona in 08, Real Madrid in 2015 and Bayer Leverkusen currently it shows there is potential payout is huge.
What McKenna has done so far, even if it's at a lower league level, can not be scoffed at. He took a team that was comparatively outgunned in the 3rd division to two consecutive promotions, he has something about him and with our resources, restructuring and previous association maybe we can cobble up something. What's key is that we be prepared to give him time and he should play his way, if we fail at least fail playing how we want to so that those performances inform our player recruitment.
On the bolded part, ETH is gone and hiring McKenna doesn't have anything to do with it. If he was staying INEOS would have backed him this week when the noise rose to a crescendo. He is done.
Saying he may not be ready for one of the most difficult positions in sport is not scoffing at him.
And even if you are proven right it won't be terminal for the club or his career. David Moyes recovered wonderfully and still carved himself a good legacy post United.
It just feels like a gamble the club can take and unlike the previous clowns INEOS won't be letting him pick £80m signings alone. What we should understand is that a manager and great players are key to success so I think you can build a strong team even if the manager is not so good and then get the manager in and improve, see Palace. That's why I am saying McKenna failing here won't be disastrous if Berrada, Ashworth and Wilcox stay on task and continue the rebuild in the background.
My only interest in McKenna's career is if it's here to be honest. It might be ok for his CV but I'm not sure his appointment is best for us right now.
It is said that getting promoted out of the Championship is the hardest thing to do in the league.
After that the next hardest thing is staying up, how often do we do see teams go straight back down.
It's wrong to talk about Mckenna now, lets see how he fares over the next season or two, if we really must replace Ten Hag, ( and I don't think we should) we need a manager with the expeience of massaging massive ego's Mckenna doesn't have that.
After that the next hardest thing is staying up, how often do we do see teams go straight back down.
It's wrong to talk about Mckenna now, lets see how he fares over the next season or two, if we really must replace Ten Hag, ( and I don't think we should) we need a manager with the expeience of massaging massive ego's Mckenna doesn't have that.
Every appointment is a gamble. You are judged on results, and the only thing that matters is your ability to deliver those.
There have been many examples to show that all this guff about experience is nonsense, no need to keep repeating it as if you are making some point that does not exist.
There have been many examples to show that all this guff about experience is nonsense, no need to keep repeating it as if you are making some point that does not exist.
Or we remove the massive egos
Three managers (including a load of shit ones) do every year.
McKenna getting back to back promotions with that budget and those players is incredibly impressive.
How many stay up though, or even last a full season? the three promoted clubs last season are all on their way back down.
We don't have a massive budget for him to play with, even if we did, I do't think INEOS would give him a blank cheque, come to that, I don't think any incoming manager is going to get a blank cheque this season coming.
Yeah, following the impressive career path of the great Nigel Adkins.
Seriously it's a super achievement, not sure it's good enough for the shambles that is United just now.
I am sure this has been asked and answered before but can someone point me to the post which explains how this guy sets his teams up to play.
I do feel like you're overestimating some of those players, though, even if they were on a decent level between 2019 and 2021.
Henderson and De Gea don't get in over Onana, Fred doesn't get in over Mainoo, Hojlund can easily reproduce Martial's 19/20, or Cavani's 20/21 season. We'll surely sign a new DM that can do their job at least as well as Matic under Ole. Greenwood and Pogba are still the only two question marks from this list for me, but I'm probably not taking the latter over Mainoo in the left-sided #8, or over Bruno in the advanced #8/#10 anyways. Also, if we start off the next season with Olise and Amad as our RW options, that's better than anything Ole and McKenna had at United, even though I rated Greenwood very highly, be that at RW or up front. I don't see a world where he stays though, and I would wholeheartedly agree with that decision. Sancho is a question mark, like I already stated.
Our other best players under Ole were IMO Shaw, Maguire, Rashford and Bruno, and they're all still here and they're all still the same players if we put them in that same environment that they used to play in under Ole. The young core is bigger and much more talented now than it was under Ole. All those 9 players I listed + the players we will sign this summer fall into that core.
Not many nowadays and McKenna hasn't had a chance to try yet.
Fair enough, I think the lack of a clear stand out candidate means that this a free hit with him and if he fails we can always bemoan the paucity of obvious targets in the market. The potential pay off is huge and he has a chance because he knows the snakes and where the skeletons are so it will be easier for him to navigate the terrain.