Keir Starmer Labour Leader

NinjaFletch said:
No shit?

Labour's reputation on the economy is in the absolute pits and Sunak is a ridiculously popular chancellor so far.

Is the insinuation that RLB +1 would be doing better here, because I can't buy that.
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ss has written a lot about RLB on here and the vast majority of it hsn't been praise.
 
Dobba said:
Anyone but Corbyn would be miles ahead was the line for the last few years.
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You can't pretend the damage done to the party under Corbyn doesn't exist. Corbyn crashed the car. You can't expect Starmer to take the seat and lap the leader before making some repairs first.
 
Corbyn singularly failed to take advantage of the general disarray of the government during the transition period. He couldn't lead. It's done damage to the standing of Labour that will take time to overcome. Starmer has come in during the pandemic; normal politics has been on hold for a little while.

Falling back on 'but you said anyone but Corbyn would have' after someone hasn't completely overcome the general ill will people hold for Labour currently is a defunct argument.
 
Dobba said:
Anyone but Corbyn would be miles ahead was the line for the last few years.
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As you well know that was because Corbyn had massive net unfavourables. Starmer doesn't (+22 and +24 in the most recent polling I've seen).

You might not like what the electorate likes, but unfortunately the judgement they seem to be making is that they like what they're seeing of Starmer but have not forgotten that they didn't like Labour 6 months ago. I wish, on a number of issues, that that wasn't the case but I don't really see what else can be done.
 
ivaldo said:
You can't pretend the damage done to the party under Corbyn doesn't exist. Corbyn crashed the car. You can't expect Starmer to take the seat and lap the leader before making some repairs first.
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DanH said:
Corbyn singularly failed to take advantage of the general disarray of the government during the transition period. He couldn't lead. It's done damage to the standing of Labour that will take time to overcome. Starmer has come in during the pandemic; normal politics has been on hold for a little while.

Falling back on 'but you said anyone but Corbyn would have' after someone hasn't completely overcome the general ill will people hold for Labour currently is a defunct argument.
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20 points ahead was the claim, even before the Tories managed to feck up the covid response to the tune of a few tens of thousands dead. Suddenly holding people to that same standard is beyond the pale.
NinjaFletch said:
As you well know that was because Corbyn had massive net unfavourables. Starmer doesn't (+22 and +24 in the most recent polling I've seen).

You might not like what the electorate likes, but unfortunately the judgement they seem to be making is that they like what they're seeing of Starmer but have not forgotten that they didn't like Labour 6 months ago. I wish, on a number of issues, that that wasn't the case but I don't really see what else can be done.
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Must be why Labour are leading in the polls now Corbyn's gone and Sir Keith has taken over with his enormous approval ratings.
 
'If someone not so polarising to public opinion had been in charge of Labour from the time of the Brexit vote, they would have been in a much better position to exploit Tory incompetence during the last 4 years'

Seems a fairer summation of 'anyone but Corbyn.' Sadly the damage is done for now.
 
Dobba said:
20 points ahead was the claim, even before the Tories managed to feck up the covid response to the tune of a few tens of thousands dead. Suddenly holding people to that same standard is beyond the pale.
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See, you are just allowing your own bias to get in the way there.
 
Dobba said:
Must be why Labour are leading in the polls now Corbyn's gone and Sir Keith has taken over with his enormous approval ratings.
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I just said why that hadn't translated into improved polling?

But in your rush to throw out bad faith arguments I'm not surprised you didn't bother reading it.

Which is a shame, I think, because I don't think Starmer has been blemish free and there's very real areas where he needs to do better, but those are lost amongst arguments you know are bollocks.
 


Just a reminder of the difference between ‘criticism’ that Starmer is subject to from the left and the ‘criticism’ that his predecessor was subject to from the centre/right
 
Dobba said:
20 points ahead was the claim, even before the Tories managed to feck up the covid response to the tune of a few tens of thousands dead. Suddenly holding people to that same standard is beyond the pale.

Must be why Labour are leading in the polls now Corbyn's gone and Sir Keith has taken over with his enormous approval ratings.
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By who? Was there a collective decision on this I wasn't aware of?

Again, that's because Corbyn ruined what little credibility Labour had left. You're pretending that didn't happen.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I just said why that hadn't translated into improved polling?

But in your rush to throw out bad faith arguments I'm not surprised you didn't bother reading it.
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Oh the reputation on the economy thing. Sir Keith and his shadow cabinet are going to fix that by pointing out how we can't afford things and demanding fiscal responsibility in response to someone you describe as 'a ridiculously popular chancellor' doing the exact opposite. Labour are bringing support for austerity back, in Pog form.
 
Dobba said:
This guy, who we absolutely need to listen to at all times because he won elections, for a start. He seems less bothered by polls now, oddly.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-po...air-labour-should-be-20-points-ahead-in-polls
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That article is from 3 years ago before Corbyn had done the damage. That's the point, isn't it?

Let me get this straight. So you think the opinion of Blair on how well the Labour leader was doing in that particular moment almost three years ago, is a fair comparison to how well the new labour leader is doing 100 days after the previous labour leader destroyed what little faith the country had left in the party? You're reaching bud.
 
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ivaldo said:
And yet he also thinks Starmer is the right man to take the party forward. Are we taking his word as gospel or just when it tickles our fancy?
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No, I'm merely holding him to the standards he set for the last guy. Just as a reminder, when the war criminal made that statement Labour were leading the polls.

Admittedly hypocrisy is amongst the softest of that cnut's flaws, but it's still one of them.
 
BobbyManc said:


Just a reminder of the difference between ‘criticism’ that Starmer is subject to from the left and the ‘criticism’ that his predecessor was subject to from the centre/right
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I see the "anyone but Corbyn" crowd are trying to rewrite the rules on what criticism is allowed and what is valid.

So transparent and hypocritical, its sad.
 
Dobba said:
No, I'm merely holding him to the standards he set for the last guy. Just as a reminder, when the war criminal made that statement Labour were leading the polls.

Admittedly hypocrisy is amongst the softest of that cnut's flaws, but it's still one of them.
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And in doing so ignoring any sentiment of context. Come on, you're better than that.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
And? Maybe you should read threads for more context before "existing".
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Oh I've read the thread, I just can't understand how someone could be naive enough to go along with such a ridiculous suggestion.
 
For it to be contextually relevant now, you have to take into account the years since then. 2017 was a relative high point for Labour, in 2018 and 2019, with Corbyn in charge, Labour faced a truly shambolic government, and managed to lose ground with voters. It takes a while to bring back trust.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
I see the "anyone but Corbyn" crowd are trying to rewrite the rules on what criticism is allowed and what is valid.

So transparent and hypocritical, its sad.
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Have you considered that most people commenting, rather than being in a Corbyn or 'Sir Keith' (whatever the hell that's supposed to be) camp, are in the camp where they are fed up of Tory rule and have seen it wreak exactly the havoc they expected on Britain and its society?

That they consider a Labour government, whether Corbyn led or Starmer led, to be an infinitely better alternative to a Tory one, even if they are not getting exactly what they want from that government?

Have people also considered that, if its seems to be a non fringe opinion on here that Starmer has 'white supremacist tendencies', that the general opinion on here may not exactly be consistent with the general opinion in the country, regardless of whether that opinion is correct or not? And that potentially taking the views of here as a manifesto may not, for instance, lead to winning elections?
 
ivaldo said:
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He's a shoo-in for Dancing on Ice or I'm A Celeb winner with those figures.
DanH said:
For it to be contextually relevant now, you have to take into account the years since then. 2017 was a relative high point for Labour, in 2018 and 2019, with Corbyn in charge, Labour faced a truly shambolic government, and managed to lose ground with voters. It takes a while to bring back trust.
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Tens of thousands dead, a footballer with no political experience winning a u-Turn out of them, the PMs right hand man breaks lockdown rules whilst people are unable to go to loved ones' funerals and a minister up to his neck in corruption and cash for access accusations. If only Sir Keith was up against a shambolic government, so Blair could hold him to the same standard.
 
Dobba said:
Oh the reputation on the economy thing. Sir Keith and his shadow cabinet are going to fix that by pointing out how we can't afford things and demanding fiscal responsibility in response to someone you describe as 'a ridiculously popular chancellor' doing the exact opposite. Labour are bringing support for austerity back, in Pog form.
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And that's one of the areas I wish we'd heard more from him on, because I do not think Sunak's programme is well targeted enough or goes far enough; the lack of support for renters is a particular failure.

The basic point however is that the public at large think Sunak is doing a great job; inevitably comparative polling is going to reflect that (in fact I'm honestly surprised it's as high as 26%).

If you were to argue that we should put aside polling figures and argue that Starmer should be making stronger interventions regardless of how well they play then I'd probably agree with you; if you're going to argue that polling does matter then I find it hard to believe that RLB would currently be doing better.
 
NinjaFletch said:
And that's one of the areas I wish we'd heard more from him on, because I do not think Sunak's programme is well targeted enough or goes far enough; the lack of support for renters is a particular failure.

The basic point however is that the public at large think Sunak is doing a great job; inevitably comparative polling is going to reflect that (in fact I'm honestly surprised it's as high as 26%).

If you were to argue that we should put aside polling figures and argue that Starmer should be making stronger interventions regardless of how well they play then I'd probably agree with you; if you're going to argue that polling does matter then I find it hard to believe that RLB is currently doing better.
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Any second now he is going to stand by all the popular policies he definitely wasn't pretending to back long enough to win the leadership and turn those poll figures around.
 
Dobba said:
He's a shoo-in for Dancing on Ice or I'm A Celeb winner with those figures.
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Who needs to be highly regarded by the public to win an election anyway? Corbyn certainly didn't, and look where he is now, a top his white horse, leading the country into a brighter, better future.
 
ivaldo said:
Who needs to be highly regarded by the public to win an election anyway? Corbyn certainly didn't, and look where he is now, a top his white horse, leading the country into a brighter, better future.
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To the 'Can being highly regarded and consistently second place in the polls, behind a government presiding over tens of thousands of deaths through a policy of British exceptionalism and bare faced double standards, be a political win?' thread.
 
Dobba said:
Any second now he is going to stand by all the popular policies he definitely wasn't pretending to back long enough to win the leadership and turn those poll figures around.
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Right, I'm sure in your head you think that's a fantastic reply, but once again you've talked past the substance of the post (where I've been critical of Starmer's record so far) to post some pithy nonsense.

I'd have thought you were interested in talking about the issues in a thread you spend your life inhabiting but fair enough. Carry on, I suppose.
 
Dobba said:
To the 'Can being highly regarded and consistently second place in the polls be a political win?' thread.
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To the, 'Only selected figure that agree explicitly with my agenda count,' thread.
 
esmufc07 said:
Be interesting to see how that poll fares without the Chancellor/Shadow Chancellor on there. Sunak seems to be very popular. (Not seen much of Dodds to be fair, though I only really have a passive interest in politics atm)
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Yeah I can easily see Sunak waiting in the wings if the public turn on Boris. At the moment he's got some great PR and will always look competent when next to inflatable Churchill knock off.Funny old world if the Tory party give us the first non white primer minister(They did give Britain it's women/demon spawn prime minister).

"The bourgeoisie, historically, has played a most revolutionary part etc"


The odd click on Twitter in the morning is about the level of my political interest now (Which I guess is more than most of the public)and yeah I have no idea about what Dodds stands for or thinks about the economy.

Which can't be a good sign.

berbatrick said:
ss has written a lot about RLB on here and the vast majority of it hsn't been praise.
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It's just pointless at this stage. Their debating some non existent lefty they've made in their head.
 
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Sweet Square said:
It's just pointless at this stage. Their debating some non existent lefty they've made in their head.
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To be fair I think we're mostly debating Dobba! But I was actually interested in what you felt the tweet was showing, particularly.
 
NinjaFletch said:
Right, I'm sure in your head you think that's a fantastic reply, but once again you've talked past the substance of the post (where I've been critical of Starmer's record so far) to post some pithy nonsense.

I'd have thought you were interested in talking about the issues in a thread you spend your life inhabiting but fair enough. Carry on, I suppose.
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There's no point discussing the issues Sir Keith should be focused on, it's like getting angry with a dog for not enjoying the layers of writing and direction of an Inside No.9 episode. He can't even pretend to keep up interest in the 10 things he picked out himself, you've got no chance winning someone like him over to your cause because he believes in nothing.

ivaldo said:
To the, 'Only selected figure that agree explicitly with my agenda count,' thread.
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Unless he's looking at starting a Twitch streaming career, only the polls about voting intentions matter when it comes to the leader of a political party. That's why the Lib Dems aren't trying to get Captain Tom to run for their leadership.
 
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I'm fairly sure the reason Starmer polls favourably is because he's virtually silent and isn't really criticising the government. If he can actually do something and then show those high figures they'll be relevant.

Labour are making things very easy for the Tories right now.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah I can easily see Sunak waiting in the wings if the public turn on Boris. At the moment he's got some great PR and will always look competent when next to inflatable Churchill knock off
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Reading The Times recently (forgive me for my sins) and a few of their columnists seem quite convinced it’s virtually an open secret in the Tory party that Johnson will not lead them into their next election. Based on what I’ve seen so far, Starmer’s pitch seems to be ‘I’m more competent than Johnson and not really left-wing, nothing to worry about here’. That might gain some traction now, but against Sunak? He’s going to have to radically rethink his whole approach, because it simply will not resonate.
 
Smores said:
I'm fairly sure the reason Starmer polls favourably is because he's virtually silent and isn't really criticising the government. If he can actually do something and then show those high figures they'll be relevant.

Labour are making things very easy for the Tories right now.
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Look at this thread for a reminder of how Corbyn was treated v Starmer by the media (not to mention his own party).

I’m always reminded of Lewis Goodall’s report before the 2019 election where he spoke to the public and said a common response was ‘I dislike Corbyn’ but when he asked them why they often couldn’t give a specific reason, “they just did”.
 
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