Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Fingeredmouse said:
So an allegation of being a well known anti semitic based on feck all then?
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That’s ironic, are you defending somebody making an unfounded statement that Israel is complicit to police brutality against the black community in the US?
I read somewhere that Maxine Peake has some history with certain types of ‘conspiracy theories’. Like I said I stand corrected, however the point I’m making is that I don’t agree that it’s unjust RLB has been sacked. You can’t be tearing down statues one moment yet condoning anti Semitic conspiracy theories the other..
 
Classical Mechanic said:
@Sweet Square

Like it or not but Ferrari has a big audience. Starmer doesn't host a show with him, he goes on as a guest to take questions from the public.
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Classical Mechanic said:
Negative perceptions of Israel have seen rises in antisemitism.

Ideas giving Israel a hand in police brutality against black in the US people will result in negative perceptions of Israel.
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Negative perceptions of black people have seen rises in racism. Ideas telling black Britons to leave if they don't like it here will result in negative perceptions of black Britons.

Do you think Starmer going on Ferrair shows is putting these people lives at risk ?

Now personally I don't think it does but I would also say the same about RLB and the independent article(Although I don't think the article was anti Semitic in the first place) And honestly anything other than this just seems like a double standard. Unless I'm missing something.


esmufc07 said:
Do you see any positives for a potential Starmer government in 2024? (I still don’t think Labour can win in 2024 as it’s too much of a mountain to climb from 2019).
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Just the basic any Labour party is better than the Tories.

esmufc07 said:
I don’t think he will deviate too much from the 2017 manifesto, he confirmed as much with his pledges during the leadership contest.

I am fairly fed up with politics though. It’s just a cesspit.
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I'm not confident these pledges will mean anything four years down the line.

But I'm completely with you on the being fed up with poltics. Seeing the awful response by the Tories to covid and the thousands of deaths it has caused yet they are still polling in the 40's, seeing the hypernormalised protests in America, the constant rising far right in the background and of course the failure of social democracy with Corbyn and Bernie has really kill my hope.

We basically live in a really shit version of the dying years of the Soviet union were everyone knows the system is broken beyond repair but nobody has any answers and you're government housing is now provided by air bnb.


Thank christ football is back.
 
Rams said:
That’s ironic, are you defending somebody making an unfounded statement that Israel is complicit to police brutality against the black community in the US?
I read somewhere that Maxine Peake has some history with certain types of ‘conspiracy theories’. Like I said I stand corrected, however the point I’m making is that I don’t agree that it’s unjust RLB has been sacked. You can’t be tearing down statues one moment yet condoning anti Semitic conspiracy theories the other..
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You don't what irony means and your rant has got feck all to do with you calling Maxine Peake a well known anti-semitic based on something you "read somewhere". feck it though. Go for it.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
You don't what irony means and your rant has got feck all to do with you calling Maxine Peake a well known anti-semitic based on something you "read somewhere". feck it though. Go for it.
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I thought only zionists didn't understand English irony

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ionists-not-understanding-english-irony-video

Went quite unreported but a legal case started against corbyn because of that last Friday

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...-s-english-irony-interview-with-marr-1.500963
 
sun_tzu said:
I thought only zionists didn't understand English irony

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ionists-not-understanding-english-irony-video

Went quite unreported but a legal case started against corbyn because of that last Friday

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/...-s-english-irony-interview-with-marr-1.500963
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That is so disconnected from what I posted other than the fact the word "irony" appears that I'd almost think you replied to the wrong post.
Oh, and you forgot so say "Jezbollah" Sun. You're slipping.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
That is so disconnected from what I posted other than the fact the word "irony" appears that I'd almost think you replied to the wrong post.
Oh, and you forgot so say "Jezbollah" Sun. You're slipping.
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I think jezbollah as you correctly call him is always relevant in a debate about antisemites.

Particularly one based on where one of his political prodigys was liking an article from a known friend and backer of his
 
Fingeredmouse said:
You don't what irony means and your rant has got feck all to do with you calling Maxine Peake a well known anti-semitic based on something you "read somewhere". feck it though. Go for it.
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Go for it?! The point I was making was that RLB was not unreasonably sacked. Any kind of discrimination should not be condoned, you can’t pick & choose as you like.
I also said I was wrong to call Maxine Peake a well known ant Semitic and stand corrected, but my original post was not about whether she was or not. That’s distracting from my message.
 
sun_tzu said:
I think jezbollah as you correctly call him is always relevant in a debate about antisemites.
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You think Jezbollah is relevant in any conversation conceivable.
You replied to a post in which I was querying what was ironic about me pointing out that Maxine Peake was not a "famous antisemitic(sic)" with another Tourettes post about Corbyn.
Feel free to carry on your obsession. Just don't quote me on an unrelated matter for no reason. I'm not facilitating you.
 
Rams said:
Go for it?! The point I was making was that RLB was not unreasonably sacked. Any kind of discrimination should not be condoned, you can’t pick & choose as you like.
I also said I was wrong to call Maxine Peake a well known ant Semitic and stand corrected, but my original post was not about whether she was or not. That’s distracting from my message.
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Your point regarding RLB was not engaged with by me. Of course you can't pick and choose which -ism is acceptable or not. I defended no-one in my post and nothing I said was ironic.

The only point I made is addressed in your second paragraph above. Maxine Peake is not a well known anti-semite and you now agree.

However, in terms of your general point, had Maxine Peake been a well known anti-semite then RLB's decision to link to the interview would clearly have been a sackable offence and there could be no debate.

As Maxine Peake is not an anti-semite of repute and given the context of the remainder of the interview which is a polemic against the (as Ms. Peake sees it) cartel of capitalist Western Imperial powers and the fact that their militarised police collaborate (and Israel, unsurprisingly, are at the cutting edge of militarised policing) the issue is far less clear cut in regards to Anti-Semitism.


If you want my opinion, RLB linking to an article which is highly pro-Corbyn in the currently factionalised Labour party environment was a direct challenge to Starmer and that's the primary reason he took her out. That was confrontational on her part.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
Your point regarding RLB was not engaged with by me. Of course you can't pick and choose which -ism is acceptable or not. I defended no-one in my post and nothing I said was ironic.

The only point I made is addressed in your second paragraph above. Maxine Peake is not a well known anti-semite and you now agree.

However, in terms of your general point, had Maxine Peake been a well known anti-semite then RLB's decision to link to the interview would clearly have been a sackable offence and there could be no debate.

As Maxine Peake is not an anti-semite of repute and given the context of the remainder of the interview which is a polemic against the (as Ms. Peake sees it) cartel of capitalist Western Imperial powers and the fact that their militarised police collaborate (and Israel, unsurprisingly, are at the cutting edge of militarised policing) the issue is far less clear cut in regards to Anti-Semitism.


If you want my opinion, RLB linking to an article which is highly pro-Corbyn in the currently factionalised Labour party environment was a direct challenge to Starmer and that's the primary reason he took her out. That was confrontational on her part.
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The main point of my post was that Starmer was right to sack her as I suspect she being confrontational. So I guess we agree then. I think RLB has made herself look particularly ignorant in this case.
And actually I wasn’t meaning to address anybody in particular, but just noting the general hypocrisy in this thread and a certain other one.
 
Sweet Square said:
Negative perceptions of black people have seen rises in racism. Ideas telling black Britons to leave if they don't like it here will result in negative perceptions of black Britons.

Do you think Starmer going on Ferrair shows is putting these people lives at risk ?
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I don’t think your accusation of a double standard is very neat.

Starmer appearing on a right wing radio show (I assume it is, never listened to it) is him trying to engage an audience that usually wouldn’t vote for Labour, to make arguments for equality and the principles of Labour. It’s exactly what he should be doing. I fail to see how this would increase racism. Labour has to reach these demographics through dialogue if it is to win an election.

Promoting an article with an unfounded theory of how Israel play a part in police brutality against black people in the US is problematic and could result in increased hostility towards Jewish people.

Again, I would stop way short of the hyperbole that is saying people’s lives are at risk in either case.

The double standard was the poster using an argument the left would deem unacceptable if used in different racial contexts.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
You think Jezbollah is relevant in any conversation conceivable.
You replied to a post in which I was querying what was ironic about me pointing out that Maxine Peake was not a "famous antisemitic(sic)" with another Tourettes post about Corbyn.
Feel free to carry on your obsession. Just don't quote me on an unrelated matter for no reason. I'm not facilitating you.
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I'm merely pointing out that the use of the word "ironic" was very reminiscent of an antiematic turn of phrase used by a political colleague and friend of the people embroiled in the current issues...
Wasn't sure if it was deliberate from you knowing your bit of a corbyn fan boy
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Starmer appearing on a right wing radio show (I assume it is, never listened to it) is him trying to engage an audience that usually wouldn’t vote for Labour, to make arguments for equality and the principles of Labour.

Promoting an article with an unfounded theory of how Israel play a part in police brutality against black people in the US is problematic and could result in increased hostility towards Jewish people.
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And I've seen it argued that Starmer simply appearing on the show is promoting the views of Ferrair.

Even if we pretend the article was anti Semitic( you should give it another read because it wasn't)then it seems odd that this would bother you but not also the fact Starmer is pretty chill once a month with a guy who's more than happy to kick out black citizens if they have any issues with Britain.

Is it not at the very least "problematic" ?

The actual answer is both what Starmer and RLB were fine but people are just trying to score cheap political points.

Classical Mechanic said:
Again, I would stop way short of the hyperbole that is saying people’s lives are at risk in either case.
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You basically are saying it here tbh.

Classical Mechanic said:
What we do know in Manchester is that spikes in anti-Semitic attacks have occurred when Israel have been involved in conflicts in the Middle East. I think its fair to say that RLB's promoting of an unsubstantiated claim of indirect Israeli involvement in the death of George Floyd is at the very least problematic. Given what I've read about the orthodox communities feelings about the recent rise in anti-Semitic attacks here I would be surprised if they were not worried by this conflation being promoted in the UK media.
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Linking spikes in anti Semitic attacks to a retweet on an article about global racism is hyperbolic.
 
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Sweet Square said:
And I've seen it argued that Starmer simply appearing on the show is promoting the views of Ferrair.

Even if we pretend the article was anti Semitic( you should give it another read because it wasn't all at)then it seems odd that this would bother you but not also the fact Starmer is pretty chill once a month with a guy who's more than happy to kick out black citizens if they have any issues with Britain.

Is it not at the very least "problematic" ?

The actual answer is both what Starmer and RLB were fine but people are just trying to score cheap politicians points.


You basically are saying it here tbh.



The idea that a retweet on article about global racism is going to worry Jewish people across the country is well a bit silly.
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For your parallel to work then Starmer would have go on LBC and promote problematic right wing ideas. As far as I’m aware he hasn’t done that. He’s trying to engage a hostile audience to try and win them round to a more compassionate world view and to vote Labour.

I don’t think RLB’s retweet would have made much impact by itself, it’s the idea becoming pervasive that would be the issue and she could have played a part in that. Starmer was right to sack her because of Labour‘s issues with the perception of antisemitism plaguing the party. It may have been an absent minded error of judgement by RLB but she was sacrificed as to not let the accusations of Labour being antisemitic become a damaging narrative once more. Judging by the Jewish community and media feedback, it worked.
 
sun_tzu said:
I'm merely pointing out that the use of the word "ironic" was very reminiscent of an antiematic turn of phrase used by a political colleague and friend of the people embroiled in the current issues...
Wasn't sure if it was deliberate from you knowing your bit of a corbyn fan boy
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That would have been a bizarrely subtle reference. Corbyn is not on my mind that much.
I'm not a massive Corbyn fanboy although relative to you I guess I am. I'm just fed up, as you know, with your "Jezbollah" and, previously regarding Brexit, "Unicorn" Tourette's.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I'm not a massive Corbyn fanboy although relative to you I guess I am. I'm just fed up, as you know, with your "Jezbollah" and, previously regarding Brexit, "Unicorn" Tourette's.
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Well if jezbollah hadn't wanted a unicorn brexit deal then I wouldn't have had to use the phrases.
Why you chose to use a medical condition as an insult is up to you... whats next though you gonna drop old school classics like spastic in the mix?
 
sun_tzu said:
Well if jezbollah hadn't wanted a unicorn brexit deal then I wouldn't have had to use the phrases.
Why you chose to use a medical condition as an insult is up to you... whats next though you gonna drop old school classics like spastic in the mix?
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You're right. That is inappropriate and I apologise.

It remains frustrating how you continue to pursue particular issues relentlessly using stock phrases as if they were Homeric epithets. But that's my problem and I should know better than to let it rile me - "If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him".

It seems to me that you almost want elements of the Labour party to be antisemtic. The "Unicorn" Brexit policy to me was never, to my mind, fanciful or fantastical but pragmatic albeit it doomed in this polarised political environment. Which, given Starmer was its primary architect is unsurprising.

For a brief while, it seemed to me that was the possibility of a genuinely left wing (not hard left, or Trotskyist) mainstream party in the UK again and Corbyn, who nonethless had many flaws was at the head of it.
Now we are seeing a return to a party drifting to the right.

I have no doubt that tactically this is likely required to win in the poltical environment of the UK (especially England) and I'm sure it delights you.

However, I had hoped for some genuine co-operation in the Labour party but it seems civil war will continue and labelling Maxine Peake and, by extension, RLB (who was, in my mind, guilty of an open attack on Starmer by linking to a pro-Corbyn polemic) as anti-semite conspiracy theorists to make them sacrificial political lambs is not the ethics of co-operation that I had hoped for and does not does bode well for a future true party of the left.

It was a unicorn of a hope I guess.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
It remains frustrating how you continue to pursue particular issues relentlessly using stock phrases as if they were Homeric epithets. But that's my problem and I should know better than to let it rile me - "If your opponent is temperamental, seek to irritate him".
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Don't worry, the stock phrases will change eventually with the next tabloid or guido trends. It's all very predictable.
 
saivet said:
Late to this thread but absolutely nothing from him. Disappointing as time and time again, these things get swept under the rug.
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I’m failing to see how Labour can represent me with every passing day. Already cancelled my membership, and I doubt I’ll vote in the near future.
 
villain said:
I’m failing to see how Labour can represent me with every passing day. Already cancelled my membership, and I doubt I’ll vote in the near future.
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It is sad you and other feels like this but also completely understandable. I can only hope there are plans to ensure people like yourself can feel represented by the party.
 
villain said:
So no further word on the treatment of black & brown Labour MPs from within the Party, that was leaked months ago?
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saivet said:
Late to this thread but absolutely nothing from him. Disappointing as time and time again, these things get swept under the rug.
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The leaked report left Labour open to multiple legal actions by people named in the report so most of what's happening has occurred behind closed doors, but it emerged last week that several people named in the report have already been suspended. Given the legal risks, Labour probably aren't going to comment publicly until the full report is released in July.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/pol...t-leaked-high-court-suspensions-a4474456.html
 
villain said:
I’m failing to see how Labour can represent me with every passing day. Already cancelled my membership, and I doubt I’ll vote in the near future.
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I cancelled mine also. I’m becoming more apathetic to politics in this country by the day.

It’s never been more clear that people with power and influence in this country don’t care remotely about any form of racism... unless they can use it to punch leftwards. All it does is promote a hierarchy of racism where you see antisemitism get more column inches and outrage than Windrush, or the abuse of black politicians barely raises an eyebrow.

The new leadership is so spineless when it comes to media relations that they will enforce the hierarchy without a second thought to principles or fairness. The fact that they can even defend some of the stuff in the leaked report on the basis that they were “private conversations” is pathetic.
 
Anecdotal but while we Labour voters are squabbling, two swaying voters I know have reacted positively to Kier Starmer’s decisiveness and can see themselves voting for him in the next GE... so whatever he’s doing is working if that is replicated across the electorate.
 
ZupZup said:
I cancelled mine also. I’m becoming more apathetic to politics in this country by the day.

It’s never been more clear that people with power and influence in this country don’t care remotely about any form of racism... unless they can use it to punch leftwards. All it does is promote a hierarchy of racism where you see antisemitism get more column inches and outrage than Windrush, or the abuse of black politicians barely raises an eyebrow.

The new leadership is so spineless when it comes to media relations that they will enforce the hierarchy without a second thought to principles or fairness. The fact that they can even defend some of the stuff in the leaked report on the basis that they were “private conversations” is pathetic.
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Good post, it’s all one big game just to get into power with the big parties, the way they weaponise serious issues like racism shows how much they really care and also prioritising one form of racism other another reinforces this view further.
 
That'sHernandez said:
Anecdotal but while we Labour voters are squabbling, two swaying voters I know have reacted positively to Kier Starmer’s decisiveness and can see themselves voting for him in the next GE... so whatever he’s doing is working if that is replicated across the electorate.
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Same here but it is still early days.

Losing votes on the left to gain more votes in the center is how you win power in the UK. The last election proved there is no way for Labour to win elections by motivating extreme left wingers without putting off huge amounts of traditional Labour voters. Hard faced as it is to say there has to be an element of good riddance.
 
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