Keir Starmer Labour Leader

jeff_goldblum said:
On the other hand, Israelis, and Jewish people with an affinity with Israel, live in a world where 'anti-Israel' voices, including the leaders of other regional powers, are often arguing that the country should be wiped off the map.
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jeff_goldblum said:
I think those critical of Israel need to be awake to the fact that it is not uncommon for antisemites to co-opt legitimate criticism of Israel to spread hate, and that Israelis and Jewish communities more generally know this all too well and are understandably wary. They also need to be wary that it isn't always easy to tell when this is happening, and that in societies where anti-Jewish conspiracy theories have existed for millennia, they need to be mindful of unconscious bias in themselves and in their sources.
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In many cases it's not a matter of 'being awake' or becoming aware, though. Most of them have been told about this over and over, and many actively choose to ignore or deny it. Speaking from experience there, as others can surely do too.

At that point the question has to become one about motives. The 'they need to realize' approach can't do much when realization is so obviously unwanted.
 
Synco said:
In many cases it's not a matter of 'being awake' or becoming aware, though. Most of them have been told about this over and over, and many actively choose to ignore or deny it. Speaking from experience there, as others can surely do too.

At that point the question has to become one about motives. The 'they need to realize' approach can't do much when realization is so obviously unwanted.
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So what do you believe RLB's motives were?
 
Fearless said:
And a lot of those moves (immobilisation locks) are derived from Aikido.
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So the fact that the IDF are clearly demonstrating the kneel on the head technique to another police force doesn't set any alarm bells ringing?
 
Smores said:
Still not seeing where the blame is attributed?

You're inferring (or more likely you've read others infering) that by linking the aggressive technique to the training they've received that it's not the US police or the officer to blame it's the country offering the training? That's your argument right? You don't think that's a bit silly.
Then we take another leap in logic and the blame now isn't even Israel it's the jews apparently.

The UK and France don't have a long history of police brutality and weren't in the Amnesty report used as a source. It would be odd to use them.

The point is the US police care so little about police brutality they're being trained by one of the most brutal forces with countless human rights violations. Which is a pretty substantial point in an article about an incident of police brutality.
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The amnesty report that even they have retracted.

This impulse to find reasons to uniquely blame israel for bad stuff is racist. Let's not beat around the bush. It is encouraging that labour finally has a leader who sees it.

There's plenty to criticise Israel for, legitimately of course, as there is for any country.
 
I once lived with a guy who outright told me he disliked the Jews. He considered himself to be very left wing.

Another guy (still a friend although probably just barely) once sang an antisemitic song in the pub not long after deciding he was a socialist.
 
nickm said:
The amnesty report that even they have retracted.

This impulse to find reasons to uniquely blame israel for bad stuff is racist. Let's not beat around the bush. It is encouraging that labour finally has a leader who sees it.

There's plenty to criticise Israel for, legitimately of course, as there is for any country.
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Amnesty have not retracted anything. The report still stands, as it was completely factual and transparently sourced. They have clarified that, contrary to some misrepresentations, they have never cited evidence of Israeli police specifically teaching the kneeling restraint technique.
 
nickm said:
The amnesty report that even they have retracted.
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So an actress in an interview should look into the sourcing of every report she reads. As it is, the *fact* that training including chokeholds have been trained by Israeli police to US police is documented elsewhere too, including in this thread. I wonder why the police where I stay were forbidden by civilian oversight from training from this specific country.

nickm said:
There's plenty to criticise Israel for, legitimately of course,
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I have never seen a single criticism wrt Palestine, of white phosphorus, civilian bombing, blockade, exclusionary citizenship, whatever, is all anti-semitic. First three because others do it, so it's being singled out, and last because that questions the existence. The pillars of criticism of Israeli poicy towards Palestine are anti-semitic.

I now see why Bibi is so popular. He is the shield. All criticism of the state can be directed to him and laundered into legitimate criticism, suggesting an underlying ideal state without the bad man would not commit the same crimes and is of course above criticism. Even bigots like fearless can use him as a shield, he might share their views, but he is the one silently taking the hits for his country. He deserves much more than the 35% and corruption cases he gets.
 
Ramshock said:
Two things.

Keir Starmer is a Tory cheerleader in disguise

Israel is above any and all criticism from anyone in the west and if anyone points out that its a murderous tyrannical state (which it is) then they are hit by the pro Israel machine and labelled anti semite.
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Keir Starmer did the only right and decent thing.

Ramshock said:
Absolute bollocks. I am anti Israel i am NOT anti semite. You do not want to distinguish one from the other because it negates any criticism of Netanyahu and his fascist state.
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If the relation is that loose, then I have to assume that anti Israel is de facto antisemitism.
The way you phrase it (bringing fascism so elegantly into play) makes me question the balance in your views, to be frank.

Raven said:


Just came across a video of the IDF training Czech police. Have a look and see if anything looks at all familiar.
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No familiarity to be honest. You do realize that there is an attacker with a knife, don't you?
 
nickm said:
The amnesty report that even they have retracted.

This impulse to find reasons to uniquely blame israel for bad stuff is racist. Let's not beat around the bush. It is encouraging that labour finally has a leader who sees it.

There's plenty to criticise Israel for, legitimately of course, as there is for any country.
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They did not retract the report at all.

Israeli is not a race.

Israel were not being uniquely blamed by Peake.
 
nickm said:
The amnesty report that even they have retracted.

This impulse to find reasons to uniquely blame israel for bad stuff is racist. Let's not beat around the bush. It is encouraging that labour finally has a leader who sees it.

There's plenty to criticise Israel for, legitimately of course, as there is for any country.
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They've not retracted anything, they said it doesn't say kneeling which it doesn't but no one is disputing it's a poorly evidenced claim.

If anything they've doubled down on Israeli forces teaching aggressive and unnecessary techniques. Which is a concern isn't it? Why are the US sourcing that style of policing?

The key bit of that article is "when there is nothing to suggest that Israel played any greater part in Floyd’s death than the many other countries that share training with the US, and which also use aggressive restraining techniques". Now that's what i said previously, if there's a whole host of other countries teaching such methods to the US then the calling out of israel is problematic but I've yet to see anyone suggest there has been.
 
esmufc07 said:
RLB is an idiot for reading that article and endorsing it after the last 5 years
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Yeah, bad judgement, clumsy on her part. If it is true that she refused to apologise and retract, then maybe he had no other choice.

Plus, she isn't very effective.
 
UweBein said:
Keir Starmer did the only right and decent thing.


If the relation is that loose, then I have to assume that anti Israel is de facto antisemitism.
The way you phrase it (bringing fascism so elegantly into play) makes me question the balance in your views, to be frank.


No familiarity to be honest. You do realize that there is an attacker with a knife, don't you?
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I don't care if he has a knife. The assertion is that the IDF train the knee on the neck technique, this clearly demonstrates that they do. I'm saying no more or less than that it's plausible that the American police received the same training. Therefore the article making the claim that the American police learned this technique from the IDF a jump but certainly not unlikely.

The fact that RLB shared this article does not make her an antisemite and she has not perpetuated an antisemitic conspiracy theory but rather a minor inaccuracy. I think its wrong that militarized right wingers are travelling all over the globe to train each other in oppressive best practices.
 
Maticmaker said:
Perhaps its just me, but I don't think Starmer's sacking of RLB as anything to do with antisemitism, that is an excuse, he's just clearing the decks behind him making sure there is no 'etu Brutus' moment in the future. Everyone knows Starmer's view of Labour and RLB's view are at different ends of the spectrum. Using the antisemitism card to complete his coup, gets Sir Keir brownie points as well with certain sections of the party.
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Agreed. It is quite transparent.

Actually it is disrespectful to the real fight against genuine anti semitism and for equality.
 
Raven said:
I don't care if he has a knife. The assertion is that the IDF train the knee on the neck technique, this clearly demonstrates that they do. I'm saying no more or less than that it's plausible that the American police received the same training. Therefore the article making the claim that the American police learned this technique from the IDF a jump but certainly not unlikely.
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Well, following that grandsome conclusion you can safely assume that IDF are also conducting shooting trainings. So by that logic, you could say that it's plausible that the American police have learned that thechnique from the IDF as well :lol:


Raven said:
The fact that RLB shared this article does not make her an antisemite and she has not perpetuated an antisemitic conspiracy theory but rather a minor inaccuracy. I think its wrong that militarized right wingers are travelling all over the globe to train each other in oppressive best practices.
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In short, there are two rational explanations for that statement (bringing up any relation between IDF and american police because the evidence is anecdoctical, at best): a) pure stupidity b) antisemitism. In both cases, it was a good decision to get rid of her.
 
UweBein said:
Well, following that grandsome conclusion you can safely assume that IDF are also conducting shooting trainings. So by that logic, you could say that it's plausible that the American police have learned that thechnique from the IDF as well :lol:



In short, there are two rational explanations for that statement (bringing up any relation between IDF and american police because the evidence is anecdoctical, at best): a) pure stupidity b) antisemitism. In both cases, it was a good decision to get rid of her.
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Nobody has claimed that Israel killed George Floyd. That would be a tin foil hat conspiracy theory. What is being said is that far right militarized police forces are trading tips and best practices to aid in oppressing their citizens, which is absolutely true.
 
elnorte said:
I once lived with a guy who outright told me he disliked the Jews. He considered himself to be very left wing.

Another guy (still a friend although probably just barely) once sang an antisemitic song in the pub not long after deciding he was a socialist.
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What’s your point?
 
Kentonio said:
To be honest I'm more interested in why the supposed party of the UK's working class seems to spend more time talking about a foreign country in the middle east than it does about the needs of its own core supporters. Israel does plenty of things wrong, but so do dozens of other countries around the world. So why is it this constant Israel focus from a party that claims not to harbour anti-semitics?
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Because they are antisemites. That's the reason.
You could talk about oppression and racism in Germany, France, Spain, Hungary, Austria, Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, China, Brazil, Finland, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India and so on, and so on.
The mere fact that they seem to be infatuated with talking about Israel reveals their bias/prejudice against Israel.
 
Many of the concepts of what is antisemitism being banded around in this thread would cause the majority of the orthodox community in Greater Manchester to be defined as antisemites. This is tiresome.
 
DOTA said:
Many of the concepts of what is antisemitism being banded around in this thread would cause the majority of the orthodox community in Greater Manchester to be defined as antisemites. This is tiresome.
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Except that it would not apply for them - for many and obvious reasons. It‘s a lame argument. Similar to „saying the n-word is not racist because then the black community would be racist as well“. Lame.
 
BobbyManc said:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/op...s-antisemitism-failures-really-corbyns-fault/

Well worth a read. Disgraceful the lack of attention mainstream media has given it but hardly surprising. Anti-Semitism only matters to them if it can be used to hurt the left.
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The Labour Party ft Sir Keir Starmer have rather given the game away about this "investigation" into the Labour Leaks with their response to that article. Gone are the refusals to comment on the messages sent, replaced by shrugged shoulders in word form.
 
UweBein said:
Except that it would not apply for them - for many and obvious reasons. It‘s a lame argument. Similar to „saying the n-word is not racist because then the black community would be racist as well“. Lame.
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No.

This isn't about reclaiming a word. Not remotely. It's about disregarding Jewish opinions because they don't fit the narrative of right wing Anglos.
 
It's also funny how Ms Peake brought up the American police force(who is overwhelming Irish American), she could have picked any police force in the world yet she picked this one, rather strange isn't it ? It's also not a surprise that the so called ''anti racist'' left hate Joe Biden, another great Irish American. They call him all sorts of awful names, attack his Irish traditions such random fits of angry and lack of respect towards women, call him ''corrupt''(Ah yes the age old stereotype of the little Irish man sitting on all the gold!)and of course they won't vote for him in the upcoming elections.

This is the reason the "Left'' will never win power.
 
elnorte said:
Basically that from personal experience the idea of anti-Semitism being common place among the hard left is no myth.
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‘I have proven that it is not a myth courtesy of two personal anecdotes.’

Dobba said:
The Labour Party ft Sir Keir Starmer have rather given the game away about this "investigation" into the Labour Leaks with their response to that article. Gone are the refusals to comment on the messages sent, replaced by shrugged shoulders in word form.
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We’ll see. That quote was specifically in regards to the abusive messages about the leader’s office. If they adopt that line with the claims about actively working against the party’s election, stifling investigations into anti-Semitism and the other damning stuff then Starmer is a farce. I won’t hold my breath expecting anything other than a whitewash.

DOTA said:
Many of the concepts of what is antisemitism being banded around in this thread would cause the majority of the orthodox community in Greater Manchester to be defined as antisemites. This is tiresome.
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Yep. It’s just attenuating the label of any meaning whatsoever.
 
DOTA said:
No.

This isn't about reclaiming a word. Not remotely. It's about disregarding Jewish opinions because they don't fit the narrative of right wing Anglos.
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I am sorry, you are using the same argument there as white supremacists would do. I am sorry that I have to be so blatant.
 
BobbyManc said:
We’ll see. That quote was specifically in regards to the abusive messages about the leader’s office. If they adopt that line with the claims about actively working against the party’s election, stifling investigations into anti-Semitism and the other damning stuff then Starmer is a farce. I won’t hold my breath expecting anything other than a whitewash.
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If the defence for messages like wishing someone died in a fire is that it's fine because nobody was supposed to read it, it's not the greatest of starts is it?
 
UweBein said:
I am sorry, you are using the same argument there as white supremacists would do. I am sorry that I have to be so blatant.
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Would you be so kind as to elaborate upon this pretty strong remark?

I'm quite happy to return the favour and elaborate as to how I think you're enabling antisemitism.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
So what do you believe RLB's motives were?
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Can't say. She's a politician and an individual, I know very little about the former and nothing about the latter.

The post I quoted made a general point, that's what I replied to.
 
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