Keir Starmer Labour Leader

stw2022 said:
The right (and seemingly left) wing attacks are going to be intense and relentless over the next year or so. Labour can't ever afford to be complacent. The biggest doubts people have over any Labour leader is their economic credibility. Blair understood that. I think deep down everyone understands it that's why those who have an interest in keeping Labour our of power - namely Tories and "socialists" well - represented in this thread have an interest in goading him into opening himself up to those attacks.
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Blair had a costed manifesto at this point and a cohesive strategy regarding the next few years. Education, NHS, other stuff I can't be bothered to look up (crime and its causes, a slogan, but fed into economy).

Starmer has very little. He wins by default and so pisses off people, intentionally, to keep the polling lead (labour people). The ones he pisses off will either vote labour anyway or else not vote tory. That's his entire strategy at this point. Most will vote labour. 15-20 % polling gap. Will be 7% or so by the time the election is done.

You have this idea that what Starmer is saying now is strategy to win an election after which there comes an incredible Labour pivot. No. What he's saying now is precisely what he intends to do when elected. That's the problem.
 
Let's take a Labour leader through an interview where he's asked if he will reverse every obnoxious Tory policy implement over the list 13 years and get himself in a tangle over how he'll fund every single reversal benefits only the Tories themselves and those for who politics is about hearing what they want to hear who don't actually care about winning elections.
 
ZupZup said:
Sensible grown up politics is cheering on Labour every time they sound like a convincing Tory tribute act… or when they successfully get through another media appearance without committing to anything, whatsoever.

I wish there was another thread where we could all discuss the latest policy position Labour won’t commit to in the interests of fiscal prudence.

I’m just glad the political heavyweights have finally realised we can get out of this mess by simply, growing the economy.
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Has anyone said how Starmer's going to grow the economy that isn't some flight of fancy?
 
stw2022 said:
This thread is just a joke. There's zero balanced discussion about anything to do with his leadership or the Labour Party, just bitter Corbynistas looking do to do what they can to keep the Tories in office. Its so ridiculously out of touch with the real world or what people think on the streets.

Yes he had his flaws and areas where criticism is deserved but this thread is hilariously fecking relentless. It's almost a parody. There's no discussion or balance on everything is just "why Starmer is a cnut this hour" Tweets from the last four years. There really needs to be another thread where those interested in politics can debate this flaws and this be left like a cake for the wasps at a picnic for those who just want to bash the guy for being electable
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Nah, it isn't. I've expressed my view in the past that some of the criticism levelled at Labour is a bit OTT, and I can see some merit in some of the reasons for voting for them despite everything and also for not voting for them. But the criticism the party gets from the left is definitely almost 100% warranted. As someone who has a strong belief in genuine left-wing policies, I think the actual parody, and not a funny one, is current Labour still having the word "labour" in their name.
 
stw2022 said:
Let's take a Labour leader through an interview where he's asked if he will reverse every obnoxious Tory policy implement over the list 13 years and get himself in a tangle over how he'll fund every single reversal benefits only the Tories themselves and those for who politics is about hearing what they want to hear who don't actually care about winning elections.
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What is he going to do when in office? That's the gist of this argument. You think he will do something other than what he says? I think he will follow the already set Tory policy over the past 13 years with the most minute of symbolic adjustments. What is Labour policy moving into next year? Where are we in five years time? These aren't insane questions to ask nor are the pro-Tory talking points. It's an election and I want to know what he (the leader of the party) is offering. So far, it's absolute shite.

Given a 20% polling lead, he could be talking about something somewhat ambitious. He cannot lose this election unless he pisses on the Queen's gravestone. It is that sown up.
 
stw2022 said:
The right (and seemingly left) wing attacks are going to be intense and relentless over the next year or so. Labour can't ever afford to be complacent. The biggest doubts people have over any Labour leader is their economic credibility. Blair understood that. I think deep down everyone understands it that's why those who have an interest in keeping Labour our of power - namely Tories and "socialists" well - represented in this thread have an interest in goading him into opening himself up to those attacks.
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Starmer has promised to train 15 000 new doctors per year, and doubling the amount of places at medical schools. The plan is also to spend £28b per year or green stuff, starting about halfway into the term.

It would be more fiscally conservative to scrap all this. Do you think he's making a mistake by promising so much spending?
 
People are fools if they think Starmer is going to enact leftist policies if Labour wins the election.

The malaise in this thread is not because Starmer feels the need to broaden the appeal of the party to win an election, it's because he's sounding worse than the tories. Left wing voters would absolutely prefer a centrist government to a right wing one. BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE WE'RE HEADING, IS IT?!
 
NotThatSoph said:
Starmer has promised to train 15 000 new doctors per year, and doubling the amount of places at medical schools. The plan is also to spend £28b per year or green stuff, starting about halfway into the term.

It would be more fiscally conservative to scrap all this. Do you think he's making a mistake by promising so much spending?
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Pretty sure they've already rowed back on the £28bn.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Not the amount, they've postponed the start.
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Next comes the amount then. I think the key thing is not just what policies they have, but also whether people believe they're actually going to even try to do any of them. So far Starmer has gone back on the vast majority of his promises and ordinary folks wouldn't have a clue what he actually wants to do.
 
stw2022 said:
This thread is just a joke. There's zero balanced discussion about anything to do with his leadership or the Labour Party, just bitter Corbynistas looking do to do what they can to keep the Tories in office. Its so ridiculously out of touch with the real world or what people think on the streets.

Yes he had his flaws and areas where criticism is deserved but this thread is hilariously fecking relentless. It's almost a parody. There's no discussion or balance on everything is just "why Starmer is a cnut this hour" Tweets from the last four years. There really needs to be another thread where those interested in politics can debate this flaws and this be left like a cake for the wasps at a picnic for those who just want to bash the guy for being electable
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Absolute bluster, why don't you tell everyone what he's got going for him other than "being electable".
 
Bert_ said:
UKIP really did a number on UK politics. The Tories have basically merged into UKIP post brexit and Labour have decided their easiest way to power is to just be the Tories pre-brexit.
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Can't blame UKIP for Starmers treachery against working people.
 
Getting elected is crucial. The public have been so badly served over the decades by the fact the left see power merely as a non-essential extra. The country is on its knees because for much of its history the labour party has taken an 'election wins are overrated' attitude.
Politics without power is nothing.

Might as well go and shout at a mirror, be happy the person in the reflection agrees with you and think you're changing the world. Meanwhile only one Labour leader has won an election in 50 years

Nobody believes Starmer is "worse than the Tories" but its what they need to tell themselves to convince themselves that rooting for a Tory win is somehow a principled, "socialist" outlook.
 
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stw2022 said:
Getting elected is crucial. The public have been so badly served over the decades by the fact the left see power merely as a non-essential extra. The country is on its knees because for much of its history the labour party has taken an 'election wins are overrated' attitude.
Politics without power is nothing.

Might as well go and shout at a mirror, be happy the person in the reflection agrees with you and think you're changing the world. Meanwhile only one Labour leader has won an election in 50 years

Nobody believes Starmer is "worse than the Tories" but its what they need to tell themselves to convince themselves that rooting for a Tory win is somehow a principled, "socialist" outlook.
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Do you think Starmer should go back on the promise to increase the amount of doctors, to save money and appear more fiscally conservative?
 
stw2022 said:
Getting elected is crucial. The public have been so badly served over the decades by the fact the left see power merely as a non-essential extra. The country is on its knees because for much of its history the labour party has taken an 'election wins are overrated' attitude.
Politics without power is nothing.

Might as well go and shout at a mirror, be happy the person in the reflection agrees with you and think you're changing the world. Meanwhile only one Labour leader has won an election in 50 years

Nobody believes Starmer is "worse than the Tories" but its what they need to tell themselves to convince themselves that rooting for a Tory win is somehow a principled, "socialist" outlook.
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Why do you assume that only hard left people think Starmer is not up to it?

What's the point of power if you do nothing with it and carry on with the status quo?

The government is supposed to have the best interests of all the people at heart. Obviously the Tories are hopeless. What is going to change if Starmer gets in?

If Labour get in at the next GE, which should be the easiest GE to win ever, is it a short power trip that lasts five years and the Tories regroup and then get re-elected in 2029?

It's obvious Starmer's going to get annihilated if he gets in. He's definitely gone by 2029.
 
The hard left pretend either not to know that the challenge of a Labour opposition is to take a position of electabily or they know but still think he shouldn't take that path because they don't care about being elected.

Starmer and Labour are massively ahead and on course to win. This worries people. The hard left like the Tories in power because opposing them defines them politically. To the point where every Labour leader that looks set to oust them becomes the target. If Starmer was doing badly in the polls he'd be receiving a much easier ride. The hard left are terrified the Tories are going to lose.
 
I see coco’s returned with his patented custard pie act.

Truth is Starmer’s Labour was massively ahead in the polls before his latest decisions to lurch to the right. This is Starmer’s ideology not an electoral necessity.
 
Ekkie Thump said:
I see coco’s returned with his patented custard pie act.

Truth is Starmer’s Labour was massively ahead in the polls before his latest decisions to lurch to the right. This is Starmer’s ideology not an electoral necessity.
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Maybe..I dunno if its a much of a lurch to the right. He's basically said he isn't going to announce a budget or spending plans more than a year away from an election.
 
stw2022 said:
The hard left pretend either not to know that the challenge of a Labour opposition is to take a position of electabily or they know but still think he shouldn't take that path because they don't care about being elected.

Starmer and Labour are massively ahead and on course to win. This worries people. The hard left like the Tories in power because opposing them defines them politically. To the point where every Labour leader that looks set to oust them becomes the target. If Starmer was doing badly in the polls he'd be receiving a much easier ride. The hard left are terrified the Tories are going to lose.
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What a load of bollocks.
 
Badunk said:
People are fools if they think Starmer is going to enact leftist policies if Labour wins the election.

The malaise in this thread is not because Starmer feels the need to broaden the appeal of the party to win an election, it's because he's sounding worse than the tories. Left wing voters would absolutely prefer a centrist government to a right wing one. BUT THAT'S NOT WHERE WE'RE HEADING, IS IT?!
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They're not just fools, they're fecking complicit. 'He's just saying this so he can get in', no he's not, he's saying it so you vote for it and he can do it, with your backing. This is a very dark path we're on now. I hope all the 'adults in the room' enjoy their victory.
 
The troll is boring. The same comments spammed without any substance or discussion.
 
Tory government is the norm in this country and it's always awful when they're in power. At a minimum, Labour's job in government should be to undo as much of the damage the Tories have done as possible. Good Labour governments go beyond that and deliver lasting change which can't be torn up by the next Tory government the second they leave office; they make it more difficult for the next round of Tories to do the same degree of damage they did last time by advocating for progressive ideals and implementing progressive policies (like universal healthcare free at the point of service) which become part of the fabric of the country.

Starmer isn't even trying to do the former, never mind the latter. On his current trajectory, the Tory PM who follows him will be picking up roughly where Sunak left off and the country will continue on its merry trip rightwards.
 
stw2022 said:
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Not quite the gotcha you think it is, the article says that Corbyn's Labour would have reduced Osbourne's planned benefit cuts by £2bn (i.e - specific commitments to scrap specific planned cuts).

However, it also mentions that Labour's manifesto in 2017 committed £20bn to reversing welfare cuts overall. So the difference between Tories and Labour in 2017 was £9bn of cuts on the one hand, and somewhere between £11bn and £20bn of extra spending on the other depending on how you read the wording.
 
Corbyn also had a 600bn pound costed manifesto (was it higher?) regarding infrastructure changes and so on. Was called insane in 2017/2019 but in fact it is now orthodox economic policy if you want to follow the American lead (CHIPS/etc). Which Britain, having followed the American lead, and economically, led it at times (Thatcher), has to do. Not Corbyn's policies, but certainly the economic ambition which you can now find in well regarded Communist Card Carrier Joe Biden.

National Bank/Energy plans, rail. I wouldn't agree with many of Corbyn's precise policies at this moment, because it was seven years ago, things move on, but the general scale is still required. Just to go elsewhere.
 
As a supporter of Corbyn’s policies and a massive Leftie (despite some accusations on here in the past and occasionally on Twitter), I do also have to deal with the realities of the political system we have in this country.

It does make me laugh that some believe that we’ll jump from being a country of consistent Tory voters (barring New Labour - I know! I know!) to a Left Wing Shangri-La in the space of one electoral cycle.

This battle cannot be won in a single massive leap like some on here seem to have convinced themselves is possible. It has to be done in steps. Like beating cancer the first steps are to acknowledge the existence of the cancer and to stop the cancer from actively making things worse.
 
Corbyn. Left wing. Tories. Right wing. Expectation of Starmer: centrist. Reasonable. Starmer: Fight wing. He's fighting fire with petrol despite being 20 points ahead (or 30 depending on the day of polling). As others said, he is ahead by X% as default. Since the Truss scandal, the Tories have tanked and it never has come close to reversing in poll numbers (were already behind but from single to double digit tanking). It wasn't because Starmer came out with policy genius, it was because the fascade of the Tory act where they switch leader and pretend that the 13 year old regime is fresh each time finally became untenable. The market shat the Tory party out on contact. That was what won it, electorally, for all major outlets and thus the general switch from Tory to Labour of all major media apparati which are not the Telegraph or so baked in that they have to pretend.

Anyway, he's not playing centrist. He's trying to out-right-wing the Tories on a series of issues.
 
stw2022 said:
Getting elected is crucial. The public have been so badly served over the decades by the fact the left see power merely as a non-essential extra. The country is on its knees because for much of its history the labour party has taken an 'election wins are overrated' attitude.
Politics without power is nothing.

Might as well go and shout at a mirror, be happy the person in the reflection agrees with you and think you're changing the world. Meanwhile only one Labour leader has won an election in 50 years

Nobody believes Starmer is "worse than the Tories" but its what they need to tell themselves to convince themselves that rooting for a Tory win is somehow a principled, "socialist" outlook.
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It's funny you say this whilst ranting about the hard left and refusing to actually engage with the posters asking you sincere questions about Starmer.

You're accusing us of wanting the Tories to win whilst actively supporting a man advocating for Tory policies
 
Starmer really needs to show much more ambition and not just follow the Tories policies because he is scared of attracting negative attention.
I want a Labour government.
But a Labour government that actually means something and who is worth voting for.
 
Labour won't win anything without the young people's vote and that tool Starmer is alienating them with his right wing policies.

His strategy is to try break up the usual Tory voters by targeting the groups who have historically been the more likely to be the ones who actually vote. Negligently he thinks he can capture the Tory vote at the expense of the traditional Labour voters and win the General Election.

An error on his part because social media has unleashed a new voter class of people who see through the lies and deceit and are seriously organising themselves to A) get the Tories out and B) spreading awareness of Starmer'a right wing swing of the Labour Party.

Young people see through his deceit and he is alienating the trade unions. It could all end in tears for him if Tories stick to Tories and traditional Labour base dessert him.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
As a supporter of Corbyn’s policies and a massive Leftie (despite some accusations on here in the past and occasionally on Twitter), I do also have to deal with the realities of the political system we have in this country.

It does make me laugh that some believe that we’ll jump from being a country of consistent Tory voters (barring New Labour - I know! I know!) to a Left Wing Shangri-La in the space of one electoral cycle.

This battle cannot be won in a single massive leap like some on here seem to have convinced themselves is possible. It has to be done in steps. Like beating cancer the first steps are to acknowledge the existence of the cancer and to stop the cancer from actively making things worse.
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The point I'd make here is that "centrist" Labour parties who tend towards the right on a bunch of key policies aren't going to do this. Barring 1997-2001 when the balance of power between the soft-left and the Blairites in the PLP was such that the former had a lot of influence over policy, New Labour's time in government didn't see the centre ground move to the left. Quite the opposite, they ceded a lot of key ideological ground (on things like privatisation and deregulation of the financial sector) to the right from the start, and moved rightwards from there (particularly in terms of social policy like crime, welfare, immigration and asylum) as Blair's more reactionary faction started to dominate the PLP after 2001.

Starmer is starting off way to the right of where Labour were in 1997, and nothing he's said or done suggests he has any intention to move leftwards in government.
 
jeff_goldblum said:
The point I'd make here is that "centrist" Labour parties who tend towards the right on a bunch of key policies aren't going to do this. Barring 1997-2001 when the balance of power between the soft-left and the Blairites in the PLP was such that the former had a lot of influence over policy, New Labour's time in government didn't see the centre ground move to the left. Quite the opposite, they ceded a lot of key ideological ground (on things like privatisation and deregulation of the financial sector) to the right from the start, and moved rightwards from there (particularly in terms of social policy like crime, welfare, immigration and asylum) as Blair's more reactionary faction started to dominate the PLP after 2001.

Starmer is starting off way to the right of where Labour were in 1997, and nothing he's said or done suggests he has any intention to move leftwards in government.
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So the (practical, realistic) solution to this would be...

Because without a viable option we're effectively letting Tories run amok because Labour aren't the Left Wing socialist Party that we want them to be.
 
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