Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Mart1974 said:
I think some people are in the Stockholm Syndrome phase of Tory rule.
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As in supporting and defending your own abusers? No. I'm in the fecking sick of the entire narrative of UK politics being controlled by the politics of the Tories and those they are the mouthpiece of to such an extent that the only viable alternative voting option nationally has to mirror said narrative phase of Westminster rule.

Vote Labour - you've got feck all choice and we're better than those cnuts.
 
Cloudface said:
Why lie to make your point?

And Brexit has happened so what do you want exactly? To make it worse? Or do you think we can magic wand ourselves back into the EU?
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I'm not lying. I wish I was. See my post above. In summary, he'll expand the private sectors influence in the NHS, he'll continue to keep the Union's at arm's length and he pursue Tory budgets rather than invest.

What do I want regarding Brexit? A fecking adult in the room to talk about how we might actually fix this mess rather than hide from the issue and pretend it's not happening. I get why they are blanking it given the electoral poison last time around but I think they've gone to far by simply ignoring this massive issue, especially given current and long term polling on the matter.

But, yes, if your sarcastic magic wand existed, I'd absolutely advocate its use.
 
crossy1686 said:
Even if Labour can't do the exact opposite from what the Tories have done, or even if they have to continue down this path for a while, at least you'll be treated like a human for a while and not with utter discontent for breathing.
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Sweet Square said:
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:lol:
 
I still think that a Labour - Lib Dem coalition would be far more desirable than a Labour majority government (certainly the Lib Dems would insist on PR as a red line, and would also surely push for closer integration with the EU - many of the orange bookers losing influence within their party definitely helps as well), and I'm still not massively enthusiastic about Starmer. However any scenario with a Starmer-led administration would be far more desirable than any scenario in which the Tories, who continue to fail miserably across the board.

If I was to try to think of the best achievements by the Tories during the last 12 and a half a years, that were not driven by the Lib Dems during the coalition years (for example same sex marriage being legalised in 2013 was spear-headed by the Lib Dem MP Lynne Featherstone, increasing the personal allowance was also a Lib Dem policy idea), I'd sruggle to put together a list that's for sure.
 
Sweet Square said:
I'd take another 4 years of the tories over Starmer winning tbh(And currently I'm poor as piss), if it meant the labour membership and trade unions finally deciding the party needs to be radical transformed(Which I'm very doubtful would happen, instead both would pick Starmer with a northern accent - Andy Burnham).
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I'm keen to see how you would explain that to the families of people dying due to the NHS beign torn to pieces for another 4 years.

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The whole blackmailing people into voting for the Labour Party shtick only works if the party is offering to fix the current issues(The leadership won’t even support a pay rise for nurses).
 
Its not really a question of whether Starmer is 'selling out', its a question of Labour getting into power... and with a sizeable majority, to not have to 'sell out' once they are in.
Boris may be gone and Sunak still wet behind the ears, but if the country needs/wants a Labour Government the Labour Party is going to have to 'wrest' power from the Tories (remember 80+ seat majority they currently have) and that means appealing to lost red wall voters to return and turning some Lib Dems, also winning some seats back in Scotland, as well as new ones in England and holding on to Wales.
Its not a Lab-Lib Dem-Green etc. coalition that's needed its an outright sizeable Labour majority, preferably landslide victory and right now Starmer is beginning to make the right noises... at the right time.

Go on Sir Keir... get in there lad!
 
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I really want to have faith in Starmer, but he basically has offered no specifics on any of his intentions in all of the years he has been leader.

He basically just says buzz words and criticises the government.The country is F’ed and we need more then that.
 
Sweet Square said:
The whole blackmailing people into voting for the Labour Party shtick only works if the party is offering to fix the current issues(The leadership won’t even support a pay rise for nurses).
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Nobody is blackmailing you. Just don't pretend "you did the right thing" to support the tories after the last 12 years shitshow because of some convoluted logic about strengthening the left.
 
Maticmaker said:
Its not really a question of whether Starmer is 'selling out', its a question of Labour getting into power... and with a sizeable majority, to not have to 'sell out' once they are in.
Boris may be gone and Sunak still wet behind the ears, but if the country needs/wants a Labour Government the Labour Party is going to have to 'wrest' power from the Tories (remember 80+ seat majority they currently have) and that means appealing to lost red wall voters to return and turning some Lib Dems, also winning some seats back in Scotland, as well as new ones in England and holding on to Wales.
Its not a Lab-Lib Dem-Green etc. coalition that's needed its an outright sizeable Labour majority, preferably landslide victory and right now Starmer is beginning to make the right noises... at the right time.

Go on Sir Keir... get in there lad!
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Which makes some sense, but where is the evidence he won't 'sell out ' once he is in ? Am I supposed to just make up a scenario in my own mind that Labour will about face on all the shite they're saying at the minute once they get into power, despite the fact they're telling me the opposite ?
 
It terms of New Labour, I thought that the first 5 years of their time in power from 1997-2002 were an overwhelming success (noticeably reducing child poverty was their single biggest achievement IMO, although Labour still receive more criticism for failing to reduce it further than the Tories do when it soars under their watch) before things began to unravel from 2003 onwards.

From what I understand, Blair and New Labour were utterly ruthless in destroying Major and the Tory government when in opposition week after week, and also able to clearly and concisely set out their own policy platform (plus Blair unlike Starmer was charismatic), so I don't see similarities between Blair and Starmer at all.

As I said though, I take the view that any Labour / Labour-led administration, regardless of whether Brown, Miliband, Corbyn (I was no great fan of him in 2019 but the idea that a Johnson led government was better is beyond farcical - plus 'centrist' Labour MPs would have wielded considerable power had he somehow become PM), Starmer etc.is the leader, is far more preferable than any Tory / Tory-led administration.

I don't think that the Labour hierarchy are at all taking it for granted that they'll be win the next election which is good, and of course crucial given that Labour have lost every single election in which Blair hasn't been their leader since 1974. I'd expect the increasingly desperate Tory media outlets to ramp up attacks against for Labour for imaginary / false complacency - Suank's attempts to link Starmer and Corbyn together unsurprisingly failed miserably.
 
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Eplel said:
Nobody is blackmailing you.
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Eplel said:
I'm keen to see how you would explain that to the families of people dying due to the NHS beign torn to pieces for another 4 years.
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Again for this to work, the labour candidate can’t just be David Cameron in a red suit.

There’s no believable evidence that the current Labour Party is going or even wants to fix the current problems this country faces. Your voting for political platform that doesn’t exist. I guess don’t expect others to do the same.

It’s not that big of a deal, I’m just staying at home on Election Day.
 
Sweet Square said:
Typical radical lefty. It’s been mentioned on here before but it’s really clear Starmer isn’t just copying the New Labour playbook. He is in terms of campaigning running to the right of them.
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He's a Tory in all but name. I don't see how you can look at what he's saying and doing and come to any other conclusion.

It's as if some people think Tory policies are more palatable if they're coming from Labour.
 
Mogget said:
He's a Tory in all but name. I don't see how you can look at what he's saying and doing and come to any other conclusion.

It's as if some people think Tory policies are more palatable if they're coming from Labour.
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Agree. Honestly I think people aren’t listening or are just ignoring what Starmer is saying and going on blind faith.

They have some vague idea that Labour are more compassionate and that Starmer has more in common with them because he is culturally more liberal(Again no real basis for this as Starmer is quite authoritarian)

Imo it’s really no different than when conservative voters thought Boris or Brexit would turn the country into a better place.
 
Bobade said:
Which makes some sense, but where is the evidence he won't 'sell out ' once he is in ? Am I supposed to just make up a scenario in my own mind that Labour will about face on all the shite they're saying at the minute once they get into power, despite the fact they're telling me the opposite ?
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There is never any such ('they will sell out') evidence available prior to a GE, otherwise no politician would ever get elected.
One thing is for certain, if Labour don't go on saying all the (what you call 'shite'') they will not get elected, at least with a significant majority.
The majority in the UK (voting) population are neither left or right and they are the target audience just now; they want something they understand, why its being said/done, how it will be achieved and then they can work out its effect on their own lives.
Apart from the Blair Government, Tories have been past-masters at this type of presentation and Labour a distant second, 80 seats short last time.
Starmer has to do better... considering the last GE result for Labour, it would be hard not too!
 
Fingeredmouse said:
He is going out of his way as is the entire shadow cabinet, under direct instruction, to distance himself from strikes, pay demands and any show of support on picket lines.
He is, at best, not supportive of the Unions.

He is going out of his way to stress that he will, by and large, support the spending of the current government. See today's "not opening the big Government cheque book" (from today's speech) comment as an example. This is de facto advocation of continuation of current austerity measures.

His backing of Streeting's plans regarding the private sector's involvement in the NHS as an "active state working in partnership with private business" (also today's speech) is a continuation of the back door privitisation policy of the NHS begun in the 90s.

Nothing is wrong with Law and Order - I am not an anarchist. However, given Kier's track record in this regard and his authoritarian bent and this sort of cheap sloganeering regarding Law and Order is a depressing angle to take given what's going on right now.

The prevailing theory is to get elected in England you need to sit to the right. It may very well be true but I'm not exactly sure how anyone faintly of the left is meant to be enthusiastic about this Labour leadership on the grounds that it compares favourably in relative terms to the utter bastards ripping our society apart from Government right now.
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Absolutely.

If the right wing media dictate what policies can be put forward by the opposition then we only have the illusion of democracy.
 
Fingeredmouse said:
I'm not lying. I wish I was. See my post above. In summary, he'll expand the private sectors influence in the NHS, he'll continue to keep the Union's at arm's length and he pursue Tory budgets rather than invest.

What do I want regarding Brexit? A fecking adult in the room to talk about how we might actually fix this mess rather than hide from the issue and pretend it's not happening. I get why they are blanking it given the electoral poison last time around but I think they've gone to far by simply ignoring this massive issue, especially given current and long term polling on the matter.

But, yes, if your sarcastic magic wand existed, I'd absolutely advocate its use.
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https://www.bigissue.com/news/emplo...de-union-laws-and-defend-the-right-to-strike/

Rather than keep unions at arms length he's been working with various unions at implementing a new bill for workers rights when in office. And I don't think having MPs on picket lines will be effective for workers but will just entrench the debate as a political Labour vs Tory one. The Tories are struggling to make the strikes stick as a Labour issue due to this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/uk.news.yahoo.com/amphtml/starmer-nhs-needs-know-cavalry-153607814.html

Putting money towards training and hiring tens of thousands of nurses and doctors doesn't sound like handing over the NHS to the free market. If you are talking about using private hospitals to clear the backlog then I am happy to hear of other solutions whilst the NHS' capacity is built back up?

On Brexit maybe I was a bit flippant. But I don't think Britain can just vote to go back in without a lot of painful infighting and economic uncertainty. Also, the EU might have some conditions for us rejoining after the way we have acted the last few years. I think we lost on this one and hopefully the next generation can take us back when the dust has settled. Until then we are going to have to make it work.
 
I want to vote for a socialist Labour Party, not this Tory-endorsed bunch of insipid wankers.
 
TwoSheds said:
Interviewers might as well just say "do you have any beliefs or ideas, please tell us some?"
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The weird thing is Starmer uses the examples of GP’s as the private sector working within the NHS but the Shadow Secretary of State for Health wants to make them NHS employees

Wes Streeting has said a Labour government would “tear up the contract” with GPs, and could make family doctors salaried NHS employees.

https://www.theguardian.com/society...act-with-gps-and-make-them-salaried-nhs-staff
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So, the Tories has effectively killed the NHS, the idea of home-ownership, are looking to further restrict some of the already tightest sets of workers rights in the West, and putting our nation in the absolute toilet on the world stage, but yes, go on, tell me how you won’t vote for Starmer as the alternate to them because ‘he’s just like them’ when any look at his life shows how markedly different his is.

Oh, you’re upset that he won’t press a pipe dream idea that he’s suddenly going to be able to spend our way out of this mess - that’s REALITY! What the Tories have done to this country in 13yrs will take DECADES (at least) to recover from, mostly dependent on when it becomes acceptable to push to return to the EU. You want a political leader that says they can have it all, rewind back to September and look what happened with that disgrace of a PM Liz Truss. She served up the Conservative dream and it blew a £30bn hole in our country.

Anyone who isn’t doing the absolute most to get these shysters and charlatans out of office, whether it’s voting Labour, Lib Dem, Green, he’ll even Reform (if they have the best chance of beating the Tory incumbent) has no right in saying that they want the best for this country!
 
Dobba said:
He's definitely not anti-Union though.
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No, he isn't 'anti Union', but if Starmer becomes the PM, in fact like any head of any political shade of Government, Labour, Tory or any other political party, he will become 'the boss' when dealing with Public Service Unions and he will have to determine what the 'shareholders' i.e. the tax paying public, will allow him to pay, and the effect on the service.
Unions mainly operating in the private sector will be free to apply pressure in their respective industry or service and in such areas a Labour Government would be more inclined to allow democratic rights to Unions in pursing pay and conditions, but in public sector things will be much tougher... under any government, anyone thinking any Labour Government can give the PS Unions a 'free pass' is living in 'cloud cuckoo' land.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
So, the Tories has effectively killed the NHS, the idea of home-ownership, are looking to further restrict some of the already tightest sets of workers rights in the West, and putting our nation in the absolute toilet on the world stage, but yes, go on, tell me how you won’t vote for Starmer as the alternate to them because ‘he’s just like them’ when any look at his life shows how markedly different his is.

Oh, you’re upset that he won’t press a pipe dream idea that he’s suddenly going to be able to spend our way out of this mess - that’s REALITY! What the Tories have done to this country in 13yrs will take DECADES (at least) to recover from, mostly dependent on when it becomes acceptable to push to return to the EU. You want a political leader that says they can have it all, rewind back to September and look what happened with that disgrace of a PM Liz Truss. She served up the Conservative dream and it blew a £30bn hole in our country.

Anyone who isn’t doing the absolute most to get these shysters and charlatans out of office, whether it’s voting Labour, Lib Dem, Green, he’ll even Reform (if they have the best chance of beating the Tory incumbent) has no right in saying that they want the best for this country!
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Hard to motivate people to go out and vote Labour when all they are offering is to wipe the rim of the toilet we are sitting in.

Will be the lowest turnout in history next election.
 
Bert_ said:
Hard to motivate people to go out and vote Labour when all they are offering is to wipe the rim of the toilet we are sitting in.

Will be the lowest turnout in history next election.
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I get he’s not doing great (although he’s like the increased devolution that he’s suggesting) but if you’re not motivated to get rid of this lot then I think you’re beyond help.

What would you prefer him to say (apart from Rejoining, which I’d love, but he can’t say…yet)?
 
Jericholyte2 said:
I get he’s not doing great (although he’s like the increased devolution that he’s suggesting) but if you’re not motivated to get rid of this lot then I think you’re beyond help.

What would you prefer him to say (apart from Rejoining, which I’d love, but he can’t say…yet)?
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This Tory government is the worst I've seen in my life time. Of course I want rid. Apparently Starmer's Labour doesn't though. Just want to tweak it slightly to make it more palatable.

If we have a general election between Cameron's Tories and Sunak Tories then how many people do you think will actually bother voting?

The only reason to vote labour is the hope that they can be pressured to move left and do the things that this country needs. And that is why I will still vote for them, blind hope! But if they do get into power and don't make that shift then what next?
 
Bert_ said:
Hard to motivate people to go out and vote Labour when all they are offering is to wipe the rim of the toilet we are sitting in.

Will be the lowest turnout in history next election.
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Surely that spells disaster for Labour, they’ll need a bit turn out presumably?
 
Bert_ said:
This Tory government is the worst I've seen in my life time. Of course I want rid. Apparently Starmer's Labour doesn't though. Just want to tweak it slightly to make it more palatable.

If we have a general election between Cameron's Tories and Sunak Tories then how many people do you think will actually bother voting?

The only reason to vote labour is the hope that they can be pressured to move left and do the things that this country needs. And that is why I will still vote for them, blind hope! But if they do get into power and don't make that shift then what next?
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Leave if you can. Burn it all down if you can't.
 
Bert_ said:
This Tory government is the worst I've seen in my life time. Of course I want rid. Apparently Starmer's Labour doesn't though. Just want to tweak it slightly to make it more palatable.

If we have a general election between Cameron's Tories and Sunak Tories then how many people do you think will actually bother voting?

The only reason to vote labour is the hope that they can be pressured to move left and do the things that this country needs. And that is why I will still vote for them, blind hope! But if they do get into power and don't make that shift then what next?
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How do they make the radical shift though? What does Starmer gain by saying ‘we’ll invest in this, we’ll spend on that, we’ll do this this and this too’ when the reality is they can’t.

They can’t borrow as Truss showed what happens there, and the economy is tanked, so what can he do other than say the reality of the situation we find ourselves in?

The country is fecked and it’ll take decades to recover. Not exactly a great for a poster, but it’s the truth.
 
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