I was happy when Starmer was elected leader but Christ he’s been awful. With the pandemic I gave him further benefit of the doubt as I don’t think it would have looked good him “playing politics” at the time. But he offers no opposition, no inspiration. He needs to change tactic and fast but he isn’t going to. I know Blair and New Labour are hated by many on here but Blair at least gave a vision in 1997 and introduced many changes (see below). All Starmer seems to be offering is to be slightly less crap than the Tories.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
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"Death and Taxes........ the only certainties in life"
yeah but... red tories... iraq... something about Israel and OOOOH Jeremy Corbyn so non of that counts
"My father was a tool-maker and, in a way, so was Boris Johnson's!"
Now I don't like the guy but that was pretty damn good!
Now I don't like the guy but that was pretty damn good!
I was actually a big fan of Brown. I don't need my exact politics to be represented to be happy with the leadership.
That's what the likes of @sun_tzu don't and aren't willing to grasp. Most Corbyn supporters didn't hate New Labour they just didn't idealise it to the point that the major flaws are ignored. It's a bit fan boy territory with some of the centrists in here because you'd think New Labour never had the huge fundamental issues it did, the best thing for them was the Left came along so previous ills could be ignored.
The current crop of politicians are just a New Labour tribute band but one that plays all the shitty B side songs and not just the hits. Mandelson should be nowhere near the party.
As you say there's a lack of real vision because all they've identified is purge and rehash old ideas peicemeal fashion. It needs far more than that to inspire a nation. It feels like Biden set out a path for Labour but we refuse to take it.
Well, listening to his speech, it is nothing of the sort.
There is simply no comparison between Boris and Starmer.
And Starmer values are totally different to those of the PM.
All too easy to criticise.
But at least he has very clearly set out what he stands for and what he intends to do when Labour wins the next election.
Ah, the socialist humanitarian utopia in which people heckle a man talking about his mum’s death. Truly awful, but they’re accidentally hugely helping him.
He made the hammer destined to put the final nail in Labour's coffin.
They're more likely heckling the cynicism one needs in order to use a relative's death to garner sympathy, in a massively rehearsed and ghost written speech, among people whom Starmer has intentionally decided to feck over.
This is very accurate. Starmer was my pick of the various candidates when the leadership election was running and I gave him chances but he has proved to be worse than the worst iteration of Corbyn (the absolute populist version of 2019 who seemed to think that internet memes and popular culture endorsements were enough to win an election). If I were on the right or centre-right of Labour I would want a new leader instantly. A centre-right version of Burnham (which is basically Burnham) would be an instant impovement on the dog shit which is Keir Starmer. He has all the personal quirks that Miliband had and England hated without, somehow, even being as relatable or likable as Miliband. His policy is to move to the right to win back Tory voters which is a strategy doomed by the fact that the Tories will retain all those voters if the contest is fought on the grounds of who has the most rightwing credentials whilst promising a liberal vision of the UK post-Brexit.
Starmer's election campaign as Labour leader gives the Tories enough material to win any and all elections Starmer could possibly contest. "How can this man be trusted", "betrayed his own election pledges while we delivered Brexit and navigated through Covid".
Right wing Labour members should even see by now that Starmer cannot win an election and that is the only appeal he ever had, even when those of us on the left were supporting him. He's a lame duck leader. They should bin him instantly.
Do people think he will definitely be in charge come the next general election?
There are a number of realities in life.
One is the definition of insanity. Keep doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome.
So. For Labour, the outcome of offering the UK electorate left wing policies with a left wing leadership:
2017 - election defeat.
2019 - even bigger defeat.
So, assuming the Labour Party is actually serious winning the next election, what should be the policy for 2024 - third time lucky??
One is the definition of insanity. Keep doing the same thing but expecting a different outcome.
So. For Labour, the outcome of offering the UK electorate left wing policies with a left wing leadership:
2017 - election defeat.
2019 - even bigger defeat.
So, assuming the Labour Party is actually serious winning the next election, what should be the policy for 2024 - third time lucky??
Also 2010 and 2015 when Labour lost with centrist/centre-right positions. You can forgive 2010 because of the economic crash but Miliband's centrist platform was more appealing than Starmer's. Many would probably take a centrist candidate so long as that candidate doesn't declare open war on left wing elements within a left wing party and actually shows signs that he can be elected.
Why bother voting for Starmer's Labour? What about it is fundamentally different to a Tory government which has recognised a need to spend? You have more reason to trust this iteration of the Tory government who have implemented many of their policies even if those policies seem disastruous at the moment and that's an easier sell than Starmer tearing up his pledges as soon as it became convenient.
You could almost give him a chance if Starmer bothered to oppose the Tories on the ground that they've taken many of Labour's prior economic policies and wrapped them into a right-wing ideology but that would involve acknowledging that Corbyn existed as something other than a Hitler tribute act.
He's not in charge now, Mandelson is.
50/50.
This isn't the Jeremy Corbyn thread, though, this is the Keir Starmer thread. Why can't you defend him on merit, instead of defending him by saying "look at what Corbyn did"?
As to my point above, the best to happen to centrists was the Left taking over. Suddenly the failure started there and you all seem to have selective amensia.
Labour have been on a downward slope ever since Blair stepped into office for the first time, each election there after has been a lower voter share or a loss. Corbyns 2017 40% voter share and Brown nearly getting a coalition are probably the only two close encounters whilst out of power.
If defeats under a lefty leader equate to a rejection of left wing policy then centrism has been rejected as many times has it not?
I guess the election could be three years still and the painful slow-mo car crash leadership surely can't last that long.
I was giving him 50/50 too but I thought the conference went quite well for him, and his position is stronger than I thought. The hecklers and protest helped too, they made a move but seemed too weak to gather support.
He is not going to win any election. The right wing sabotaged Corbyn. Someone like Burnham may win if he becomes the leader and take along the left of the party.
Based on my CLP, most right wing labour members do see he can't win an election. Hell, if we're being honest, the Blairite tribute act he's surrounding himself with probably know he's a lame duck too. He's still useful to the latter though as long as he continues to wage war on the left and push through as many rule changes as possible. If he can sideline the left and grassroots members and ensure that when he eventually fails there's no chance of a socialist leader, then he'll have served his purpose to them.
You mentioned Corbyn not me.
I am simply pointing out the political facts. The UK does not vote for left wing policies.
Not my fault if you don't like it.
Again, what is the point though? This is specifically the Starmer thread, not the general UK politics thread. Was it just a comment drive-by? You're obviously welcome to your opinions, but it would help if you would relate it to Starmer in some way.
Ok. Understand.
My previous post was in response to another post which said that Starmer is not electable.
So I was pointing out that he had to change direction in order to stand any chance of making Labour become the next government.
Look. I realise that quite a number of people here do not like the direction he is taking the party.
I on the other hand can see why he is doing that because yet another left wing Labour Party is not going to change our failure to become elected.
Ah, I missed the post it was in response to. I'd say this post makes it a lot clearer than just saying that left-wing hasn't worked, so I get what you're saying.
No worries.
Hopefully we are all on the same side.
Wanting this appalling Tory government out.
And of course wanting to see Manchester United back at the top.
2010?
2015?
Couldn't agree more.
Wasn't 2017 the best Labour election result in recent memory?
They said John Major was the Grey Man. Starter is fighting too many battles in his own party to concentrate on winning anything.
I think 18 months is more likley... fixed term parliament act has gone so I'd guess spring 2023
It taught labour the wrong lessons, it laid the foundations of the subsequent generational defeat, and they still lost, so no.
Labour would struggle to dig itself out of a landslide defeat in a single parliament, whoever was leader and an honest assessment has always recognised that.
Behind The Scenes At Labour Party Conference
The election afterwards was so heavily influenced by Brexit that it almost stands alone as a unique, single issue GE. No doubt Labour had issues with their Brexit polices.
Who was their Brexit minister at that time?
I can't help but think that the people who keep reminding us that New Labour won from the centre are missing that the exciting stuff about New Labour's offering which enthused voters at the time, and which forms the backbone of the defence of New Labour nowadays, were left of centre policies (largely from the Brownite wing) which were, for the time, a lot more radical than anything the current rash of centre/right Labour figures would be capable of stomaching. A lot of them only happened back then because the centre-left had a much louder voice in 1997 than they did in after 2005, by which time Blair had had three elections to pack the PLP with allies on the right.
New Labour was at its best (and I think this is as objective a statement as is possible when you're talking politics) when it did normal, centre-left stuff like spending public money on public goods, raising pay for working people and trying to reduce inequality of opportunity. It was at its worst when it did stuff right wing governments do, like demonise immigrants, asylum seekers and working class people, sell off public assets, deregulate financial markets, make dodgy deals with big business and send troops to fight pointless and counterproductive wars which make us less safe than we were before.
I'm someone with a lot of gripes with New Labour. I think they had a golden chance to fundamentally and lastingly make this country a better place to live and they squandered it, leaving behind little of any merit that Cameron wasn't capable of trashing in a matter of months. I also think their various feck-ups/mask slip moments, such as pandering to the right on immigration and asylum, failing to address regional inequality, bottling breaking up media empires, normalising the spin and sleaze that was meant to be what the Tories did and chickening out of constitutional reform, are a massive part of the reason we're in the situation we are now as a country. But Jesus they were better than the shower who run the party nowadays.
The current Labour Right is like someone has taken New Labour, removed anyone willing or capable of doing anything remotely worthwhile and let them inbreed for a few generations.
New Labour was at its best (and I think this is as objective a statement as is possible when you're talking politics) when it did normal, centre-left stuff like spending public money on public goods, raising pay for working people and trying to reduce inequality of opportunity. It was at its worst when it did stuff right wing governments do, like demonise immigrants, asylum seekers and working class people, sell off public assets, deregulate financial markets, make dodgy deals with big business and send troops to fight pointless and counterproductive wars which make us less safe than we were before.
I'm someone with a lot of gripes with New Labour. I think they had a golden chance to fundamentally and lastingly make this country a better place to live and they squandered it, leaving behind little of any merit that Cameron wasn't capable of trashing in a matter of months. I also think their various feck-ups/mask slip moments, such as pandering to the right on immigration and asylum, failing to address regional inequality, bottling breaking up media empires, normalising the spin and sleaze that was meant to be what the Tories did and chickening out of constitutional reform, are a massive part of the reason we're in the situation we are now as a country. But Jesus they were better than the shower who run the party nowadays.
The current Labour Right is like someone has taken New Labour, removed anyone willing or capable of doing anything remotely worthwhile and let them inbreed for a few generations.
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Yeah I guess planning these things is nigh on impossible given it's one thing after another at the mo'. Saying that, it's hard to have any great conviction that Labour will have got their shit together by then.
Yeah for me the main driver is nuessing spring 2023 is the snpmdemand for indy ref 2 by the end of 2023
A vote for Labour is a vote for breaking up the union with a hung parliament ... seems a very easy campaign issue and I can't see them passing it up... plus gives Labour less time to prepare or indeed the idea of a progressive alliance time to get hold... plus they can probably keep the worst of the tax rises back to pay for the pandemic till after 2023
Considering the damage the Tories have done to the union with Northern Ireland and even driving Scotland more towards wanting independence, people would have to be stupid to fall for this...
Oh wait.
So just abandon the idea that there should be a left wing party at all?
I am referring to the next election.