But that’s the only way you can change anything. Sadly England is largely conservative and Labour has lost Scotland, so no idea how they get back into power.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
So a Tory win then
So 2 sets of almost identical parties is a functioning democracy to you?
You would probably end up with three different parties emerging which reflect the makeup of the party as it stands: the pro-Europe Neo Libs, the woke socialists and the socially conservative economically socialist Blue Labour faction. Much better than the former two competing with each other to hijack the party all the time.
Personally I'd be delighted if the Tory party and the Labour party as we know them now were consigned to the dustbin of history permanently. PR is the way to achieve that.
If there was some kind of proportional voting system, then this is obviously the optimal result (and the way many other countries do politics), but there isn't. The only way a third party is every really going to work in the UK is if it supplants another party as one of the two big ones, like Labour did with the Liberals. All other cases are regional or short-lived. The Lib-Dems are still around, but they are essentially irrelevant.
Labour splitting is going to mean the Conservatives continue winning every election.
I think that Labour staying together would mean that myself. Far too many people still associate Labour with Corbyn, McDonnell and Abbott, until that changes the Tories will have the upper hand.
The history is there, the last time Labour was purged of the far left they went on to win power. I get it might not be the Labour the far left want, but they could choose their own way forward, a way which wouldn't involve holding anyone else back.
Starmer has no choice; all the power resides with the Government on virtually every issue they have a majority of 80+, its possible he may dint that majority on the odd issue, but otherwise he (and Labour) are merely spectators. He now needs to concentrate on getting his own house in order, so he can mount a challenge further down the line, who knows, if with a 'night of the long knives' (to borrow a phrase from the past) he really steps it up and/or Boris manages to lose the Tories, (not completely unthinkable) he (just)might reduce the massive Tory majority at the next GE.
Sorry, I don't see any potential to return to pre-Brexit voting, the 'remain v leave' issue split the country top to bottom, across all parties, unfortunately for Labour it more than decimated their vote. Lots of pent up anger in red wall seats. Labour, even when in power did nothing for many of these towns, assumed their votes, used them as cannon-fodder, Brexit was merely 'the bridge too far'.
If Boris and/or the Tory party does manage some sort of 'leveling up'in these areas, Labour is doomed...doomed ah tel yer!
Agreed it just seems to be 'sabre-rattling' just now. However if Starmer does really want power, and not just standing on the sides lines shouting, then he needs to grasp the nettle.
You think the "red wall" is historically a Tory win?
If you think Labour purging at least 50% of its support will win an election then you are deluded.
The key change since Labour last won an election is that they lost Scotland because they moved too far away from the left.
No, but I think Blair being the only Labour leader to win a GE in modern times speaks volumes.
We agree that post-Brexit, the red wall should return, imagine if it doesn't though, what will Labour do then?
you dont think about half the country being pro independence and the referendum in 2014 is linked to SNP winning far more MP's
Election - SNP MP's
1987 -3
1988 -4
1990 -5
1992 - 3
1995 - 4
1997 - 6
2001 - 5
2005 - 6
2008 - 7
2010 - 6
2015 - 56
I mean how far to the right did the party move under milliband between 2010 and 2015 (or red ed as he was known?)
Thr shift to the right in Labour began long before then Sun. The reaction was cumulative, delayed and long term.
I’m not sure that’s why labour lost Scotland. Nor is kicking out the electorally toxic extreme left the same as purging its support.
I think for every one far left supporter Labour loses it will gain three votes. Not activists, I agree, but I don't think activists are as important as they think they are, it's votes that count.
If I'm wrong, and the support is so high, and the activists so important, a new far left party would do very well wouldn't it?
You think so? I will call it now…. Labour will do even worse in the next GE than 2019.
They won’t win enough votes to make up for ones they lose. I certainly would not class myself as “far left”… not even close. I would not vote Labour currently and I was a member until 12 months ago.
Yes I do think so. I know far left isn't a good term incidentally, I would be happy to call them whatever they want to be called, all suggestions welcome. At least I've avoided the childish stuff like red tories and so on.
Whilst you're on, if won't vote current Labour wouldn't you like a party closer to your ideals to vote for? Or are the Greens good enough?
Either not voting at all, or I would consider voting Green as I’d like our Government to be doing a lot more when it comes to environmental policy and climate change.
Thanks. I expect the Greens to do well as time goes on, I'll be looking at their manifesto come election time too.
Surely anyone characterising Labour as "far-left" is already voting for the Tories, some nationalist party, or the Lib Dems? What can Starmer give people by moving to the centre-right that isn't already there in Tory rule?
The idea for Scottish Independence and the vote in 2014 didn't happen because Miliband became the Labour leader. As someone else said, it was clearly cumulative.
Assuming that's a reply to me, I haven't characterised Labour as far left, I've said there is a large element of the far left in Labour, and that Labour would benefit from it's removal. But you're correct in one sense, I wouldn't vote Labour if I thought it was too far to the left. I didn't vote Labour whilst Corbyn led it for example, along with many others once they had found out what he was like.
Spot on!
Corbyn has made a full time political career out of always being on the wrong side... even in his own party.
Wonder where all those Labour MPs who supported his name being added to the Labour leadership candidate list out of.... what amounted to pity...where are they now?
No-one in the "far left" gives a feck what terminology you use.
No probs, they can speak up if they do.
I do think we're approaching a reckoning, hopefully at the party conference, it's only two months off. There is no doubt that the left hate Starmer with a vengeance, surely they'll make some sort of move against him then? And if Starmer really has decided on a purge, though I'm doubtful of that myself, he should be putting something forward then himself. And just to show I'm not actually a Starmer supporter, some policies and direction would be nice, it would be about time
Which of his policies were too far to the left? What was the policy which made it clear to you that you couldn't vote Labour because it had become Marxist?
What did you find out? What was he like?
Tend to agree.
I disagreed with Corbyn as a leader of the Labour Party on many levels. Most of which I have mentioned before.
And I did seriously consider not voting Labour for the first time in my long life. But in the end, I just could not put my X against another party.
Leading up to the last GE, many were saying/hoping that Labour would push the Tories close.
Not me.
The UK electorate was never going to put their trust in him.
Labour with Corbyn as a leader was a train crash.
He was not a leader.
The policy announcements were being made on the hoof with little likelihood of delivery.
And the Brexit policy was vague in the extreme.
It's funny, but it's also deeply depressing and dangerous.
That's a good question for you to ask. Corbyn Labour's policies were all about spending money, which people would benefit from, so objecting to individual policies would be difficult for someone generally o the left like myself. The problem comes in that I don't believe he could run an economy capable of delivering them long-term, or even that he had any interest in doing so in terms of supporting and encouraging the business and production that would pay for it. Can I prove that? No, sorry. The spending was always talked of as 'investment' of course, but the returns were always a little vague.
He did manage one thing that we're all suffering from now though, and that's Brexit. In normal circumstances a party in opposition can't actually do very much at all, but Corbyn managed it and fecked us up anyway. Quite historic really. All he had to do was allow his MPs a free vote when those endless Commons votes took place and I think we'd have got it, but of course that's not what he wanted was it?
So presumably you won't be voting for the Labour Party currently led by someone who voted for Johnson's Brexit deal?
Don't worry we know the hypocrisy and double standard laden answer already.
Easier to keep asking questions than defend Corbyn's deceitful and stupendously damaging position isn't it?
That'll be a yes, you will vote for a guy who literally voted for all this then. Shock horror.
Crash. Bang. Wallop. What a party.
I was asked a question about Corbyn which I answered honestly and you have jumped in twice with a load of stuff about Starmer and some personal abuse, even though you don't know whether I voted for Starmer, support Starmer or will vote for Starmer. Get a grip Dobba.
I don't read twitter by the way, it reminds me too much of the transfer forum.
Ah cool, so the magic money tree line worked on you.
Blaming Brexit on anyone but the Tories is beyond laughable.
had a look at Jess Phillips timeline from last night and this morning. for someone who is so anti-discrimination that she was happy for the labour party implode in order to deal with 'corbynista' anti-semitism, and also is such a staunch advocate for womens rights, in-between several tweets about watching olympics on TV, she manages one tweet about her fellow female asian muslim MP. An MP whos reported being subject of vile discrimination, racism and misogony. And that tweet was a retweet. compare and contrast to the response to the abuse aimed at Luciana Berger. and then tell me anti-semitism isnt being weaponised. fookin hypocrites.
Yes, Jeremy was the Brexiteers secret weapon, almost a fifth columnist you might say, judging by his long standing opposition to the EU's ways of working. Corbyn's take on leaving was unlike most Brexiteers in that he always believed the EU as a Political Union was in-hoc to the multi-nationals and with an appointed Commission that drew up the laws (even though they still had to be passed by the MEP's) they had the whip hand in determining...well virtually everything!
I wonder how history will treat JC on this matter?
Hilarious. Yes, nasty Corbyn causing BREXIT.
The referendum, Cameron.
The Tory part split down the middle one half driving for Brexit the other pro EU (now purged)
The shoddy deal by Boris. "Oven ready" apparently, some idiots believed him. Some still do, maybe?
How many lies can you regurgitate from right wing media until you realise you are completely incorrect?
It’s funny because it’s so true. There are a dangerous amount of idiots in this country. All of who believe this shite.
I totally agree with you on Cameron and Johnson, 100%, so trying to paint me with some Tory brush is a lie in itself I'm afraid.
The difference is that I blame Corbyn too. I'm actually surprised you haven't studied Labour history, Tony Benn, Barbara Castle, Peter Shore, Michael Foot, the whole left wing of the party, they were all anti-EU. I disagreed with them in 1975 and voted Yes to staying in Europe, but I respect their views, at least they were honest about them.
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