That's probably true, but i'd say they hold quite a lot power with the current Biden administration, liberal media and multional corporations embracing woke virtue signalling which distract from their otherwise unethical practices and lack of desire to pay more in taxes.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
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That's probably true, but i'd say they hold quite a lot power with the current Biden administration, liberal media and multional corporations embracing woke virtue signalling which distract from their otherwise unethical practices and lack of desire to pay more in taxes.
Yep, I think usage has shifted towards it being a pejorative term at this point. I say that because I've seen journalists for mainstream outlets (The Guardian and Telegraph, I think) note that their editors have changed their use of the word "woke" (when meant in a non-pejorative sense) for that reason. So for example if a TV reviewer were to describe a show as "woke" it would be percieved as an implied criticism, so a term like "socially conscious" is used instead.
I'm sure it isn't absolute though, so you will still no doubt get a few people using it in a less negative way.
I said this a couple of months ago. I think I’ve been proven just about spot on to be honest.
Ultimately the issue is the failure of Starmer to draw the line between the two things you're talking about in a way that cuts through, i.e - it is a scandal that the rich are donating directly to Boris Johnson, because Boris Johnson and his government hand out our tax money to these people in return via contracts, beneficial legislation, appointments, honours etc., using your money to enrich their little club and lock you out of it.
Of course, Labour's issue here is that they weren't exactly squeaky clean when they were last in power, which means there's an immediate and obvious retort to anything they say on the matter, however true it is, which chimes with voters. After seeing both Labour and the Tories mired in sleaze allegations in the 90s and 2000s most voters expect politicians to be somewhat corrupt, so Labour calling foul now is easily dismissed as point scoring and hypocrisy.
Thats well put. I think regardless of party there is a public distrust and expectation of politicians to be corrupt. Those old phrases ‘no such thing as an honest politician’ are all out there. There wasnt going to be any mileage in that argument.
The thing labour need to look at is you have big personality boris who goes on tv and gets all excited and exclaims ‘xyz nurses, xyz police, green industrial revolution, level up economically, one nation tory party’.
Regardless of if this happens or its a pack of lies, he ticks all the boxes as if he has answers of peoples concerns over NHS, crime, jobs, climate change, their local area, future direction of the economy and has an all are welcome policy.
In my opinion, presently Labour are mired in tittering about things the public in general dont care about. Theres no strong simple message and an uninspiring leader who gets up, mumbles then starts asking people to turn to page 54, section 2 of their ministerial code handbook. Its just beyond uninspiring.
People are looking at the polls at the moment thinking how - to me its because labour are split into factions and rudderless combined with the fact that johnson has cleverly put himself on tv far more than necessary in this pandemic evoking the whole churchill style war leaderhsip. This coupled with the furlough scheme having given people substantial paid time off, the worst economic effects are yet to come.
The time for labour to go on the attack is post furlough so they need to get their stuff together quickly.
Mr Public Perception now are ya? You realise how immoral and shitty your political positioning is and now you make it about how the public see it and not yourself. How about you own the fact that your vote actively contributes to excess covid deaths, excess deaths through neglect of the state and rampant corruption? How about you own the fact that you've done this because you don't like immigrants, benefits claimants and the Tories have bribed you with a bit of your deposit on a house?
Why don't you just admit that you're only out for yourself and you don't care who gets hurt as a result?
I’m just talking.
Plus What if i dont care? What are you going to do? Win some moral self love over thinking you are more rightous than a random person on the internet? Cry under your bed?
The whole interaction with @Jezpeza in this thread reminds me of the time my mates and I went into a pub that was empty bar one taxi driver. He immediately struck up conversation with us, complaining that the country was "going down the dogs" and the Polish come to the UK to exploit the system and claim benefits, while also taking everyone's jobs.
Great shout in fairness. I really hate the term woke.
The term woke is fine in my opinion. It's no different to the term 'liberal' in the States. It's just been bastardised by the anti-woke agenda. I'd rather be referred to as woke than fascist.
I'd just like to see you be honest with people, admit you're a selfish little toe rag and a very clear example of THE number one problem on British society.
this is the sort of post and sort of thinking that means you can’t have sensible debate - as a result you must see this contributes to the problem.
i would also add - when it comes to voting, of course people look to see what’s right for them, their family, their friends.
don’t get righteous about ‘the greater good’.
Just me then. I really hate the term but I have to agree, I'd rather be woke than fascist.
“Bloody immigrants coming over here and taking our Polish peoples jobs” - a great line from a stand up show, can’t remember the comedian.
Right, so he's knowingly killing people with his vote, which he's admitted, yet I'm not allowed call him out on it?
I think there's probably a misconception on what it means now, which is what anti-woke people want. All it is is being aware of social injustices...
I agree. I saw this a lot in America with the constant "this is why Trump won" crowd because we're too woke who've not offered an explanation as to why we saw such seismic shift there in recent election despite similar attack lines against the democratic party there as being too woke, pro cancel culture
Try to do it without the hyperbole.
I know what it means but I've always associated the term with people who take too much acid and that.
It was no secret that before the 2019 election that the Tories had killed around 120,000 people through austerity. In fact it was no secret that their unnecessary cuts had been killing people for ages. Can you point out the hyperbole please?
Your hyperbole is implying that It's the direct links to individuals that has caused the deaths. Challenge and debate for sure, but you lose any credibile argument when you try to imply that people have blood on their hands based on their vote. Then folk wonder why people don't listen to the debate when it's just direct personal attacks and a competition of who is sitting on the highest moral ground. By your notion, every political party that has ever been in power in the UK has indirectly killed people through decisions and policy.
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so to be clear. If you’ve voted Conservative you believe you’ve knowingly killed people?
Theres nothing selfish about casting a vote. I find it hard to believe that people can get get so hysterical about someone having a different opinion. You sound like you expect some sort of society where there are only people conforming to your beliefs. Odd
Secede from the Union to escape you.
And the reaction to @Jezpeza in this thread pretty much highlights a key reason why Labour and the left are continuing to fail.
It's loud minorities of people who expect every man and his dog to care as much about the issues they are passionate about, whilst thinking less of anyone who happens to have a different perspective/outlook/set of concerns.
They then proceed take great pleasure in asserting their views over them, whilst simultaneously overlooking the simple fact that - in England - it is simply mathematically impossible for any version of the left to gain power without finding common ground/compromise.
But the left lacking political pragmatism is hardly anything new, and there are probably huge waves within the movement that would sooner fall on their metaphorical swords whilst standing up for abstract ideas pertaining to equality and justice, as the world around them shifts further to the right and disconnects widen.
As someone who identifies in the traditional centre-left - although feck knows how useful political spectrums are anymore at gauging mood/party identities - I fecking despair at the state of affairs/platform the Tories are being given. And as much as I hate it, I completely understand how and why people are arriving at the decisions they are in regards to abandoning traditional party allegiances, and the lack of self-reflection and awareness from those on all sides of the Labour movement is just bewildering.
I don't think it's possible to reason with a part of the electorate who complains that a party that hasn't been in power for a decade hasn't done enough for them, while voting for the party that isn't doing enough for them. If one of your first thoughts when deciding on who to vote for is 'why should I have to pay taxes so people can scrounge benefits' then you are lost, unless there is a specific issue (ie Brexit) that an court your vote above else. Obviously the retention and strengthening of the NHS isn't a strong enough subject, despite the last 12 months.
I agree the lack of self-reflection is bewildering. It's as though both sides of the Labour party expect the other to come along for the ride without actually having constructive dialogue about what would appeal to the electorate at large.
Quality control
I'm sure Germans in the 30s said the same.
"Why should I care how they treat jews when I'm in a job and my house was cheap?"
How about because your actions matter and if you go putting parasitic murderers in charge of the country, you bare some of the blame.
Pretty much. It's no secret their vote is keeping in a government who've killed 100s of thousands of people and unless they're seriously stupid, they know their vote can change that.
I believe there should be no society without a greater regard for human life and equality than greed and corruption. The whole idea of government is so that we can organise strategies to best help those in society and help it flourish. If the government is failing, which they blatantly are, given their body count and the rampant corruption, they should be disposed of. The problem is people like you. People who can be bought and paid for with shitty little help to buy schemes because you're a cheap political prostitute who couldn't care less about the collateral damage.
Your question again shows a lack of diving into the reality of what that donation means. It means tax payers money could be squandered to a private company that made that donation.
The topic of corruption including the recent high Court ruling that contracts were given unlawfully is a major issue. It is all linked. I dislike Starmer but think he was right to raise it at PMQs. The fact you break it down to "wallpaper" and "some rich guys donation" really misses the point. Makes me wonder where you are getting your information from.
My assumption is it shows that Tory mates in the media have played a blinder downplaying rampant corruption.
I appreciate your latter point. There is still a part of me that shudders at the thought of nationalising seemingly everything, but my views have definitely softened with regard to the left of the party; a policy like basic internet for people actually really makes sense when you consider pretty much everything through the job centre is done via the internet now. The unfortunate thing is the way the policy was packaged was poor. We need progressive policies with polished leadership and I don't see that happening...
Edit: I also think the Labour Party would probably have split by now if we had proportional representation.
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I'm all for political pragmatism but 100s of thousands of unnecessary deaths is a red line issue for me. I'm not entirely sure how it isn't for others really.
I'm done. If you're reading this having found my body, I ask only that you set it on fire in the nearest ditch.wow.
So you are now comparing this government and its actions to the Holocaust.
as I said earlier, I’m sure you have some valid points - but when you take this sort of stance no one will take you seriously and any valid argument you may have had is completely lost.
Just flicked over to the election coverage and the very first thing I see is some scouse Labour guy who said "we have to stop saying we are going to listen to people and start telling them we are hearing what they are saying".
I mean...it really is the same old shit. Not that it justifies voting the fecking Tories in of course, but it's still depressing.
I mean...it really is the same old shit. Not that it justifies voting the fecking Tories in of course, but it's still depressing.
The holocaust happened in the 30s did it? Good to know.
If, when the dust settles, that is identified as having been the case, then the government should and hopefully will be held to account, 100%.
However, that is something for hindsight and - right now - the government has been doing a great job with the vaccination process. We're still in the midst of the pandemic, and there have been moments - particularly during the first wave - when the government's support will have gone down dramatically. But it's hard to imagine that happening with the end-point seemingly insight, and in-large thanks to the procurement decisions taken by the government of the day. Situations can change quickly, however, if the last 18 months have taught us anything.
Not taking one-side or another, but I can see why many voters won't necessarily have jumped to the same conclusion as you (yet).
I'm not talking about covid deaths, that's far more complicated and does require a review after, although I'm not holding my breathe on the outcome of said enquiry being accurate. I'm talking about the excess deaths through austerity and other policies, such as arms sales to places like Saudi.
I'm pretty clearly talking about the same selfish mindset of the voters rather than the nature of the government, although I think the Tories are becoming increasingly fascist.
At least you're consistent with the hyperbole.
By your definition, anyone in any political party or MP is a murderer. Actually, anyone in society that has some form of decision making could technically be a murderer by your standards. You should go into politics.