Keir Starmer Labour Leader

sun_tzu said:
Yes but look what happens with the poll tax when you try and make it a flat tax

I think longer term just put a few percent on income tax and ring fence it for local services but can't see any government wanting to raise income tax for that

Problem with any major tax change is that those who loose out get really angry (eg poll tax riots) and those that win keep quiet about it and think how they will use the extra cash... basically it will almost always be unpopular and governemnts therefore just leave it as it is
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You can't really do that given the difference in areas. Our council tax is quite high but its spent really well, which seems to be the case in a lot of the south compared to when I've lived in the north.

In these kind of areas the council tax grading makes sense because flats down the street aren't going to want to pay for the additional services of a parish council.
 
Buster15 said:
Not Angela Rayner?
I think she is the difference that Labour needs right now.
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Angela Rayner is my MP, and I think she is very good. I also think she'll be destroyed by the media for sounding a bit dopey because of her accent, just like Corbyn was for having a scruffy coat.
 
Jezpeza said:
did you ever think its a ludicrous idea that the notional value of a house you rent/own should have relevance to the cost of services in your area?
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I've not agreed with much you've said on here today, but I doubt you'll find many who disagree with that. It's a ridiculous way of doing things.
 
decorativeed said:
Angela Rayner is my MP, and I think she is very good. I also think she'll be destroyed by the media for sounding a bit dopey because of her accent, just like Corbyn was for having a scruffy coat.
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Angela Rayner's personal 'back story' is a fantastic one, she overcame many problems.
I have heard Angela talk many times about her personal story, about her personal aspiration (something Labour lacks, sometimes doesn't even acknowledge in working class people) but she nearly always puts her success down to her politics, when in truth it was down to her personal strength and determination.

I agree she would need a style guru to help, but its her personal 'back story' that is the winner and Labour should study this woman in detail.
 
Maticmaker said:
Angela Rayner's personal 'back story' is a fantastic one, she overcame many problems.
I have heard Angela talk many times about her personal story, about her personal aspiration (something Labour lacks, sometimes doesn't even acknowledge in working class people) but she nearly always puts her success down to her politics, when in truth it was down to her personal strength and determination.

I agree she would need a style guru to help, but its her personal 'back story' that is the winner and Labour should study this woman in detail.
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Yeah, ironically, she has had the "pulling herself up by the bootstraps" life that is the dream of your average Tory voter.

And I'm not mocking her for her dopey accent, as it's the same as my dopey accent!
 
decorativeed said:
Yeah, ironically, she has had the "pulling herself up by the bootstraps" life that is the dream of your average Tory voter.

And I'm not mocking her for her dopey accent, as it's the same as my dopey accent!
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and mine.....when I'm p****d!!
 
In focusing on the lacklustre Starmer (or the divisive Corbyn), we perhaps underestimate just how good Johnson is at winning campaigns. Twice London mayor, 2016 referendum and the 2019 general election. His appeal is lost on me but he clearly connects with a large number of people in a way we have not seen since Blair. Even without all the deep-rooted structural issues stacked against Labour (loss of mass unionisation, the post-Brexit culture wars and the home ownership v renter split), the party needs to be bolder with policy and possibly leadership. Forensic questioning doesn’t land many punches on the greased piglet.
 
sun_tzu said:
Or just get rid of council tax and make people pay for the services they actually use... even open up those services to his mates erm I mean free market competition... he could probably pull that off and earn enough backhanders erm donations to buy some extra wallpaper as well
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Excellent Idea, from someone who has many excellent ideas.
 
decorativeed said:
Angela Rayner is my MP, and I think she is very good. I also think she'll be destroyed by the media for sounding a bit dopey because of her accent, just like Corbyn was for having a scruffy coat.
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Maybe so. But she is not afraid to say what she believes in and can normally stand her ground.
 
Boycott said:
If you look at most of the small towns they are places where the least effects of immigration happens and the cities are where most effects of immigration take place. Yet the small towns are the most fervent prejudice against immigrants takes place and where the political issue of immigration takes paramount rather than material issues that would help them. That's precisely what I mean whereby they are willing to vote against something that maintains their status than for something that could help them get better but lifts other marginal groups up with them.
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I know this only too well. I was born in Jacksdale and grew up in Ripley, both in the East Midlands, both former mining towns in the Amber Valley constituency. Grandad was a miner and I remember a cousin going off to University in London, daring to suggest he might vote Conservative and getting a strongly-worded phonecall from my Nan telling him he could stay down there if he thought that way!

Recently, that sentiment has passed. The area is blighted by crime and drugs. There are virtually no genuine career prospects. There is a desperate need for investment. Most people in the town work long hours and can barely afford to make ends meet. Yet recently the town has turned out en masse to elect Tories. Why? Because “Labour are the Party of Britain-hating, Wokies who want to take what little they have and hand it to Muslims and Asylum Seekers”. It’s really sad that I find it difficult to maintain friendships with people who are good, genuine people who would go out of their way to help a neighbour but who have been brainwashed into fearing a threat that doesn’t exist. As to your point, according to the last national census, Ripley is “the most English town in the UK” based on etymology of the surnames of the population. Yet ask them WHY they vote Conservative and “immigration”, “Brexit” or “asylum seekers” will be mentioned within 30 seconds.

I don’t know what you do about that. Certainly Keir Starmer isn’t the man to turn around public opinion in those towns. He is just another man in a suit, representing the teachers, the foremen and the other authority figures they resent
 
MoskvaRed said:
In focusing on the lacklustre Starmer (or the divisive Corbyn), we perhaps underestimate just how good Johnson is at winning campaigns. Twice London mayor, 2016 referendum and the 2019 general election. His appeal is lost on me but he clearly connects with a large number of people in a way we have not seen since Blair. Even without all the deep-rooted structural issues stacked against Labour (loss of mass unionisation, the post-Brexit culture wars and the home ownership v renter split), the party needs to be bolder with policy and possibly leadership. Forensic questioning doesn’t land many punches on the greased piglet.
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That is a very good assessment.
As I have mentioned, politics is much more about personality than policy. And whatever else, Boris is a big personality, with a degree of charisma.
People don't really care about policy anymore. Far too complicated. They don't really care about honestly either. Just someone who they feel will get things done by fair means or foul.
But the thing about personality is that eventually, people get fed up and move on to someone else. Just like a so called celeb.
That is life I am afraid.
 
MoskvaRed said:
In focusing on the lacklustre Starmer (or the divisive Corbyn), we perhaps underestimate just how good Johnson is at winning campaigns. Twice London mayor, 2016 referendum and the 2019 general election. His appeal is lost on me but he clearly connects with a large number of people in a way we have not seen since Blair. Even without all the deep-rooted structural issues stacked against Labour (loss of mass unionisation, the post-Brexit culture wars and the home ownership v renter split), the party needs to be bolder with policy and possibly leadership. Forensic questioning doesn’t land many punches on the greased piglet.
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Demagogues are in. Johnson, Bolsonaro, Trump. The Americans were smart enough to oust theirs. We seem hell-bent on keeping ours.
 
Buster15 said:
Ok. I take the point about the large party membership.
But, I have to disagree again. This time around the strong policy direction.
Toward the end of the campaign, it became evident that policy was being made on the hoof and in reaction to the Tory campaign.
It may have started off reasonably clear. But very quickly, it got completely out of control and ended up like a spending pissing competition.

But it was the policy, or lack of it on Brexit which was anything but clear or strong.
It was a disaster and the result was the outcome of an unelectable leader and a shambles of a campaign.
Sorry, but that was the reality.
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There was no stance labour could have taken which would have won the election, their entire voter base was split down the middle.
 
MoskvaRed said:
In focusing on the lacklustre Starmer (or the divisive Corbyn), we perhaps underestimate just how good Johnson is at winning campaigns. Twice London mayor, 2016 referendum and the 2019 general election. His appeal is lost on me but he clearly connects with a large number of people in a way we have not seen since Blair. Even without all the deep-rooted structural issues stacked against Labour (loss of mass unionisation, the post-Brexit culture wars and the home ownership v renter split), the party needs to be bolder with policy and possibly leadership. Forensic questioning doesn’t land many punches on the greased piglet.
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The problem with Labour is that they did not nail their colours to the mast over brexit, because they were so nervous about getting it wrong. It made them look very weak and far too indecisive to govern. This failure has absolutely crippled them. They just can't recover.
Whether you like Boris or not, in the run up to the election the conservatives never wavered in their policy on brexit, which is the single most critical issue the country has faced in our lifetime.
Brexit could have been a disaster, but Borris and co made it very clear where they stood, and if brexit was a disaster, the buck would stop with them. Labour didn't want to upset the many Labour voters who wanted brexit, and also wanted to hoover up a lot of remain voters by offering them some hope that brexit could be stopped with a second referendum. Trying to please everyone totally backfired. They were perceived as being too indecisive, and afraid to upset anyone.

16 months on from the election defeat, they still won't explain their position on brexit, because they want to try and somehow win back the trust of those disgruntled traditional Labour heartland voters.
Until the Labour party stops trying to please everybody, and starts being clear where they stand on divisive issues, their decline will continue. If they still believe that brexit was the wrong decision, and I think most of them do, then they should get fully behind that stance with an understanding that they will lose many of their voters, but will gain new ones. If things start going pear shaped as a result of brexit, Labour would have gained a lot of credibility by being apposed to it from the very beginning.
Right now they're perceived as being too nervous about making a stand, with the risk of being wrong and becoming unpopular. A government like this would be a disaster. Starmer and co have to have the balls to draw up policies that they believe in, and then stake the reputation of Labour on those policies. So what if it fails? Better to shoot for the moon and miss, than to shoot at nothing and hit it every time.
 
Jezpeza said:
To be honest its a lot of small stuff that adds up. Not being taken for granted is one thing. As i said, its dawned on people in places like Hartelpool that there have been plenty of labour governments that never did anything for them.

It was kind of belittling essentially to be branded a thick racist for voting brexit. That brexit positivity in working class areas was a fallout from years of soft immigration. I cant believe they refused to back it when they could clearly see that it was most popular in most of their constituencies.

they need to come back centre, the socialists and wokes are loud but few. If you tax the behinds off businesses it affects jobs.

local level as i say, roads needed surfacing for years, bin collections cut, crime is up, they barely even come and trim the verges anymore. Scrapped the local kids extra curricular sports and music stuff. You can blame central government but ultimately we all pay our council tax bills and the breakdown shows over 80% going on welfare spending.

Starmer needs to go. A knighted ex oxford lawyer, he cant be a man of the working class. No charisma, his paint colour would be brilliant beige. He provides No opposition, bad policies or mimicks of tory policies which the tories will do better. He comes on the news and says what he would have done two weeks ago as if he is a genius and hindsight doesnt exist.

he wasted the whole of pms questions on some pathetic smear attempt prattling on about where £58’000 of private money came from the other day. This allowed boris to reveal that labour spent £500’000 of taxpayer money on the same flat. That matters more to me, to be frank. He lost a pound and found a penny there. Must have been a useless lawyer.
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Jesus...
 
vidic blood & sand said:
Until the Labour party stops trying to please everybody, and starts being clear where they stand on divisive issues, their decline will continue.
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Completely agree. We saw this with the attempted ‘crowd pleasing’ policies of the last manifesto.

free broadband etc - even admitted these came from focus groups.

everyone can see it was desperation. That’s not attractive from a voters perspective.

policies should come from core beliefs, not from survey monkey. Before anyone comes back with a dig at the tories - that’s the problem, having a go at the tories, but not actually standing for anything themselves.
 
Dan_F said:
To be fair to him, he gave up his rented property when he bought a house last year, so he’s solved the housing crisis.
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420’000 people used that scheme. But by all means if you cant knock the policy just try and make a joke. Been really succeeding in winning votes of late
 
Jezpeza said:
420’000 people used that scheme. But by all means if you cant knock the policy just try and make a joke. Been really succeeding in winning votes of late
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Which scheme are you specifically talking about here? Help to buy, or stamp duty?
 
Jezpeza said:
420’000 people used that scheme. But by all means if you cant knock the policy just try and make a joke. Been really succeeding in winning votes of late
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People loving getting hand outs from the state. Bunch of free loaders so of course it's going to be a popular policy.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
The problem with Labour is that they did not nail their colours to the mast over brexit, because they were so nervous about getting it wrong. It made them look very weak and far too indecisive to govern. This failure has absolutely crippled them. They just can't recover.
Whether you like Boris or not, in the run up to the election the conservatives never wavered in their policy on brexit, which is the single most critical issue the country has faced in our lifetime.
Brexit could have been a disaster, but Borris and co made it very clear where they stood, and if brexit was a disaster, the buck would stop with them. Labour didn't want to upset the many Labour voters who wanted brexit, and also wanted to hoover up a lot of remain voters by offering them some hope that brexit could be stopped with a second referendum. Trying to please everyone totally backfired. They were perceived as being too indecisive, and afraid to upset anyone.

16 months on from the election defeat, they still won't explain their position on brexit, because they want to try and somehow win back the trust of those disgruntled traditional Labour heartland voters.
Until the Labour party stops trying to please everybody, and starts being clear where they stand on divisive issues, their decline will continue. If they still believe that brexit was the wrong decision, and I think most of them do, then they should get fully behind that stance with an understanding that they will lose many of their voters, but will gain new ones. If things start going pear shaped as a result of brexit, Labour would have gained a lot of credibility by being apposed to it from the very beginning.
Right now they're perceived as being too nervous about making a stand, with the risk of being wrong and becoming unpopular. A government like this would be a disaster. Starmer and co have to have the balls to draw up policies that they believe in, and then stake the reputation of Labour on those policies. So what if it fails? Better to shoot for the moon and miss, than to shoot at nothing and hit it every time.
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Brexit was a horrible dilemma for Labour as the country was evenly split on a population basis but overall pro-Brexit on a constituency basis (the measure which counts in winning elections). If they had come out as pro-Brexit, they would have haemorrhaged votes in cities to the Lib Dems even while retaining more of the votes in the Northern small towns.

I agree Labour need to be bolder though and offer up a more compelling vision than grey lawyerly competence. What exactly that vision is and how it attracts Labour’s three traditional tribes (socially conservative “working class” in post-industrial areas, centrists and Corbynites), God knows....
 
berbatrick said:
then why did you choose it over a regular mortgage
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Because it helps you get on the property ladder with a smaller deposit than you would traditionally need. Because there are lots and lots of people out there who cant get a deposit together but comfortably pay what they could pay on a mortgage payment in rent every month.

Just lots of people dont want to admit theres a tory policy that is helping poorer and younger people.
 
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