Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Between the anti-semitism and the factionalism, Labour is a mess. Good luck fixing it, new guy.
 
Synco said:
But the finger you point so gleefully at others (and not always wrongly) points right back at you. In terms of choosing to care/not care about antisemitism under strictly sectarian criteria. This selective and instrumental attitude is one of the main problems in all of this, and it can certainly be found across the political spectrum.
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ngl i am extremely gleeful right now, i've always suspected and said in the jeremy thread that the claims of antisemitism in the labour, though well founded and deserving immediate action, were used not to root out antisemitism but as a deliberate attempt by the right wing to suppress the labour left and there's an 800 page document confirming it by extensively quoting and naming the perpetrators. And as I said there, the attempt was not only politically harmful to labour, it was harmful for campaigns against antisemitism and it did nothing to prevent or to root out antisemitism from the labour party.

so, sorry if actual proof of exactly what i was saying about these pricks is coming across as smug or anything
 
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Kentonio said:
What was the date of the letter, and what exactly did she say please?
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I don't know I've only seen second hand accounts as well. I don't think it being on any particular date would make it okay though.
 
Probably important to make clear that the report doesn't even slightly vindicate those who claimed the anti-semitism allegations were manufactured or a witch-hunt. It highlights that anti-semitism was and is a very real and serious problem within Labour. In fact it fairly buries Chris Williamson, who Corbyn had said was a strong anti-racist campaigner and definitely not anti-semetic. It also shows that hundreds of complaints weren't acted upon. All of which re-inforces how nasty the tone taken by some of those defending Labour at that point really was.

The key point from the centrist point of view is that their own nasty, bullying factionalism made the problem worse, directly resulting in Labour not taking the quick and decisive action it needed to. So rather than blame for the anti-semitism being shoved onto the left (as many were keen to do), it now has to be shared across the board. Meanwhile the sheer cuntishness of those who seemed keen to purge anyone even vaguely left-leaning was and is its own problem, which needs to be stamped out. What a shower.
 
sullydnl said:
Meanwhile the sheer cuntishness of those who seemed keen to purge anyone even vaguely left-leaning was and is its own problem, which needs to be stamped out. What a shower.
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also the nepotism, we knew labour was grim when it comes to hiring practices and particularly in relation to their ideology but hooooooooooly shit the hiring process is corrupt, literally "oh, your niece needs a job?"
 
Dobba said:
That's the one that had Alan Johnson running things, at the request of the people being talked about in this report, yeah?
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I can't remember Johnson's role but I'm pretty sure Corbyn was leader, as he was for the two general elections Labour stood on a Brexit manifesto, and a third where he wanted to but eventually conceded we could have a vote on it afterwards. Which adds up to four, not counting any xfactor appearances
 
711 said:
I can't remember Johnson's role but I'm pretty sure Corbyn was leader, as he was for the two general elections Labour stood on a Brexit manifesto, and a third where he wanted to but eventually conceded we could have a vote on it afterwards. Which adds up to four, not counting any xfactor appearances
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Head of Labour's Remain campaign. Don't worry, he forgot it too.

He made one heck of an impact though, in the form of 68% leave vote in his own constituency.
 
Dobba said:
Head of Labour's Remain campaign. Don't worry, he forgot it too.

He made one heck of an impact though, in the form of 68% leave vote in his own constituency.
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He was, but you had replied to a post that mentioned the EU election, so I assumed you were saying he had a role in that. You seem to have confused it with the referendum I think.
 
Silva said:
One of the many problems with believing obvious bad faith campaigns is that you end up pricks like this thinking they're absolved of wrongdoing

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He's such a moron. Or, more likely, conducting his own mini bad faith campaign. There are literally pages and pages about him in the report.



What a cnut.
 
sullydnl said:
Probably important to make clear that the report doesn't even slightly vindicate those who claimed the anti-semitism allegations were manufactured or a witch-hunt. It highlights that anti-semitism was and is a very real and serious problem within Labour. In fact it fairly buries Chris Williamson, who Corbyn had said was a strong anti-racist campaigner and definitely not anti-semetic. It also shows that hundreds of complaints weren't acted upon. All of which re-inforces how nasty the tone taken by some of those defending Labour at that point really was.

The key point from the centrist point of view is that their own nasty, bullying factionalism made the problem worse, directly resulting in Labour not taking the quick and decisive action it needed to. So rather than blame for the anti-semitism being shoved onto the left (as many were keen to do), it now has to be shared across the board. Meanwhile the sheer cuntishness of those who seemed keen to purge anyone even vaguely left-leaning was and is its own problem, which needs to be stamped out. What a shower.
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Assuming the summary of the report is accurate: this looks like all the right & necessary conclusions to me. And seriously, what a damning verdict this is on the party organization as a whole.
 
The leaked messages that show Dianne Abott was crying in a bathroom, on the same date she was racially abused by a Conservative official on Twitter, and those cretins decided to mock her and inform a journalist of her location is appalling beyond words. This goes beyond factionalism, these people are just sociopaths.
 
Am I the only one who isn't seeing evidence of Chris Williamson being anti-Semitic in that list? Maybe the blow me down with a feather one? I don't understand the meaning of that one.

It's clear evidence he was a loud mouthed pillock, but I didn't see anything racist in there. Can someone explain?
 
BobbyManc said:
The leaked messages that show Dianne Abott was crying in a bathroom, on the same date she was racially abused by a Conservative official on Twitter, and those cretins decided to mock her and inform a journalist of her location is appalling beyond words. This goes beyond factionalism, these people are just sociopaths.
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Madness! That kind of bullying would be a sackable offence in any company in the world, even if it didn't also play into the hands of your biggest rivals. Since it does, is that not some kind of corporate crime too?
 
Shamwow said:
I don't know I've only seen second hand accounts as well. I don't think it being on any particular date would make it okay though.
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It’s not ok. Nothing about her virulent anti-semitism (or her vile anti-Catholicism for that matter) is ok. I hope you don’t really think anyone is trying to defend her, because we’re not.
 
TwoSheds said:
Am I the only one who isn't seeing evidence of Chris Williamson being anti-Semitic in that list? Maybe the blow me down with a feather one? I don't understand the meaning of that one.

It's clear evidence he was a loud mouthed pillock, but I didn't see anything racist in there. Can someone explain?
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I'm not aware of him saying anything that falls into the categories of 'classic anti-Semitism' (please someone correct me if I'm wrong, the blow me down with a feather thing sounds pretty bad), he more falls into the category of someone whose words and actions demonstrate that he doesn't care about the victims of anti-Semitism and has no interest in tackling the issue. Over the course of the scandal he's championed the causes of people who had said some very dubious stuff (e.g - Livingstone) and has always very publically said that the whole thing was over-the-top and purely trumped up to undermine Corbyn. He also used his position as the Labour MP to do a variety of provocative and insensitive things which appeared to be intentionally designed to antagonise Jewish people who were concerned about anti-Semitism, undermining the work that senior figures in the party were doing to clamp down on the issue and assure the Jewish community that Labour was a safe place for them.

Ultimately, ignoring racism and downplaying the experiences of those who have suffered it is itself a form of racism. It's like if you (generic you not you you) wrote an essay about how the Southern US during in the 50s was a great time and place to be. And then, when your teacher hands it back to you with a note saying 'Well what about segregation and lynchings?', you write another essay doubling down on your argument, downplaying how bad segregation was and arguing that reports of lynchings were exaggerated. You might not have said anything explicitly racist about black people, but the fact that you didn't consider the endemic racism to be worth noting the first time round, and that you argued that it wasn't a massive problem the second time, demonstrates you have an issue giving the experiences of black people the same weight as the experiences of white people.
 
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jeff_goldblum said:
I'm not aware of him saying anything that falls into the categories of 'classic anti-Semitism' (please someone correct me if I'm wrong, the blow me down with a feather thing sounds pretty bad), he more falls into the category of someone whose words and actions demonstrate that he doesn't care about the victims of anti-Semitism and has no interest in tackling the issue. Over the course of the scandal he's championed the causes of people who had said some very dubious stuff (e.g - Livingstone) and has always very publically said that the whole thing was over-the-top and purely trumped up to undermine Corbyn. He also used his position as the Labour MP to do a variety of provocative and insensitive things which appeared to be intentionally designed to antagonise Jewish people who were concerned about anti-Semitism, undermining the work that senior figures in the party were doing to clamp down on the issue and assure the Jewish community that Labour was a safe place for them.

Ultimately, ignoring racism and downplaying the experiences of those who have suffered it is itself a form of racism. It's like if you (generic you not you you) wrote an essay about how the Southern US during in the 50s was a great time and place to be. And then, when your teacher hands it back to you with a note saying 'Well what about segregation and lynchings?', you write another essay doubling down on your argument, downplaying how bad segregation was and arguing that reports of lynchings were exaggerated. You might not have said anything implicitly racist about black people, but the fact that you didn't consider the endemic racism to be worth noting the first time round, and that you argued that it wasn't a massive problem the second time, demonstrates you have an issue giving the experiences of black people the same weight as the experiences of white people.
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Yeah, like the report said, he clearly said and did some very daft and provocative things. As an MP he should for sure know better and listen to the requests of the party leader, chair, whoever. He ignored all of that, did his own thing, and history shows him to be a plonker.

It rather seems though like the Labour right, the Tories and the wider media were in fact using legitimate (and some less legitimate presumably) claims of racism as a stick to beat the "wrong" people with. Not in the sense that they were perfect people or anything, more in the sense that they appear to be the least culpable in the whole row. Tory Islamophobia scandal which they haven't bothered investigating would be one example of something worse that the accusers have done.

If that was/is indeed the situation I can have some sympathy with the viewpoint, even if I think the man a fool for his actions. It can and does annoy anyone when they get called out for doing something wrong, while someone else is getting away with a similar thing on a much grander scale. Even more so if they're the ones accusing you.

Would definitely be interested to understand that blow me down with a feather thing though. It does sound dodgy, albeit without my actually understanding it.
 
711 said:
I can't remember Johnson's role but I'm pretty sure Corbyn was leader, as he was for the two general elections Labour stood on a Brexit manifesto, and a third where he wanted to but eventually conceded we could have a vote on it afterwards. Which adds up to four, not counting any xfactor appearances
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When you do your job so poorly that people forget you were even doing it and so imagine you can’t have done anything wrong
 
sullydnl said:
Between the anti-semitism and the factionalism, Labour is a mess. Good luck fixing it, new guy.
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Keep up...

An extensive internal investigation into the way Labour handled antisemitism complaints will not be submitted to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, after an intervention by party lawyers.

The 860-page report, seen by Sky News, concluded factional hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn amongst former senior officials contributed to "a litany of mistakes" that hindered the effective handling of the issue.
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-a...l-not-be-sent-to-equality-commission-11972071
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Keep up...

An extensive internal investigation into the way Labour handled antisemitism complaints will not be submitted to the Equality and Human Rights Commission, after an intervention by party lawyers.

The 860-page report, seen by Sky News, concluded factional hostility towards Jeremy Corbyn amongst former senior officials contributed to "a litany of mistakes" that hindered the effective handling of the issue.
https://news.sky.com/story/labour-a...l-not-be-sent-to-equality-commission-11972071
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Not sure what you mean by "keep up"? We've already been talking about that in the thread. It's exactly why I said "Between the anti-semitism and the factionalism, Labour is a mess."
 
Back on topic. Has he been misquoted here? Because for me now is the essential time to challenge the government's absolute botch job with this virus. Lack of PPE is literally killing off NHS workers. The inital herd immunity strategy has literally cost people their lives.

Now is the only time that demanding answers to tough questions can potentially save lives. Not after the fact. Seems a poor response to me.


Coronavirus: Ministers to face tough questions but now is not the time, says Starmer
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...but-now-is-not-the-time-says-starmer-11972391
 
Sam Matthews someone who featured in the BBC panorama documentary and said this last year

But Sam Matthews - a whistleblower who used to work in the governance and legal unit of the party - told a press conference: "No amount of tinkering is going to fix this process. It is [an issue] of culture that can only be challenged by a leadership [which is] willing to be uncompromising."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50666884
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Completely failing to do his job.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Back on topic. Has he been misquoted here? Because for me now is the essential time to challenge the government's absolute botch job with this virus. Lack of PPE is literally killing off NHS workers. The inital herd immunity strategy has literally cost people their lives.

Now is the only time that demanding answers to tough questions can potentially save lives. Not after the fact. Seems a poor response to me.


Coronavirus: Ministers to face tough questions but now is not the time, says Starmer
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...but-now-is-not-the-time-says-starmer-11972391
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I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you're arguing that restrictions should have come in earlier then I agree, but that's a change of timing rather than strategy. A change of strategy would have been along the lines of a total lockdown, which Labour has never advocated. They certainly should highlight the progress of PPE supply of course.
 
Sweet Square said:




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Pathetic.
Feck whatever this version of Labour is now, clearly not a party that can represent me or others who look like me.
I’ll never vote Tory, but I’ll be damned if I vote for this sack of shite either. I'll be cancelling my membership.
 
TwoSheds said:
Yeah, like the report said, he clearly said and did some very daft and provocative things. As an MP he should for sure know better and listen to the requests of the party leader, chair, whoever. He ignored all of that, did his own thing, and history shows him to be a plonker.

It rather seems though like the Labour right, the Tories and the wider media were in fact using legitimate (and some less legitimate presumably) claims of racism as a stick to beat the "wrong" people with. Not in the sense that they were perfect people or anything, more in the sense that they appear to be the least culpable in the whole row. Tory Islamophobia scandal which they haven't bothered investigating would be one example of something worse that the accusers have done.

If that was/is indeed the situation I can have some sympathy with the viewpoint, even if I think the man a fool for his actions. It can and does annoy anyone when they get called out for doing something wrong, while someone else is getting away with a similar thing on a much grander scale. Even more so if they're the ones accusing you.

Would definitely be interested to understand that blow me down with a feather thing though. It does sound dodgy, albeit without my actually understanding it.
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For me Williamson fails to make an incredibly important distinction between real instances of anti-Semitism from members of the Labour left being weaponised against the left at large for factional purposes, which is what is clearly evidenced by this report (and what many of us on the left have suspected for a while), and the entire scandal having been trumped up for factional purposes, which is what Williamson, groups he's supported and plenty of Twitter cranks have been saying. The former accepts the existence of the problem within Labour whereas the latter doesn't, and plays into 'shadowy puppetmaster' tropes of classic antisemitism.

Obviously there are huge interactions between how the scandal was reported (especially compared to Tory islamophobia) and anti-left bias in the media but again, there's a big difference between valid highlighting of uneven reporting and effectively dismissing the problem on the grounds that other parties are worse (which, again, I've seen from empty-cans-rattle-loudest middle-aged left Twitter/Facebook).

There are also obvious issues and sensitivities on the left about figures who have being vocally critical of Israel for legitimate reasons being accused of anti-Semitism, but I don't think there's any excuse to use that as a pretext to dismiss the existence or seriousness of anti-Semitism in the party. It also goes without saying that some on the left (e.g - Livingstone) are anti-Semitic in their criticism of Israel - from what I've read of the report, this is what makes up the bulk of the cases being processed.
 
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Silva said:
ngl i am extremely gleeful right now, i've always suspected and said in the jeremy thread that the claims of antisemitism in the labour, though well founded and deserving immediate action, were used not to root out antisemitism but as a deliberate attempt by the right wing to suppress the labour left and there's an 800 page document confirming it by extensively quoting and naming the perpetrators. And as I said there, the attempt was not only politically harmful to labour, it was harmful for campaigns against antisemitism and it did nothing to prevent or to root out antisemitism from the labour party.

so, sorry if actual proof of exactly what i was saying about these pricks is coming across as smug or anything
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Well, it is the time to rub it in. Utterly disgraceful stuff, if these reports are true.

But what immediately lets it go to shit is when these issues are again misused for mindless point scoring and whataboutism, using the wrongdoings of others to immunise oneself against long overdue critical self-examination. I'm not going to dig up past stuff on this subject, but I've made my views clear back then.

Anyways, maybe this apparent total bankruptcy, involving various actors & factions, can be a starting point for others to do better in the future. Which would crucially involve listening to people who might know a bit more about certain prejudices, instead of ridiculing and marginalizing them. Experience makes me sceptical, but one can but hope.

@jeff_goldblum and @sullydnl made some very good posts about what I'm trying to say here.
 
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sullydnl said:
Those and the comments about Abbott read like the sort of nasty bullying you'd get from unpleasant teenagers in secondary school. How grown adults behave like that, I have no idea.
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Then you remember these are not just office staff, they were at the time Directors of the labour party.
 
sullydnl said:
Those and the comments about Abbott read like the sort of nasty bullying you'd get from unpleasant teenagers in secondary school. How grown adults behave like that, I have no idea.
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It's not that surprising sadly, there's a labour member on here who kept referring to RLB as ''Corbyn in a dress'' during the leadership race. There's a really nasty element in how women are seen and treated inside the party.

villain said:
Pathetic.
Feck whatever this version of Labour is now, clearly not a party that can represent me or others who look like me.
I’ll never vote Tory, but I’ll be damned if I vote for this sack of shite either. I'll be cancelling my membership.
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British people of colour are the group Labour has for some time now taken for granted the most(It's getting worse as the party grows it's obsession with white voters in small north towns). There's no reason to vote Labour until the people mentioned in these leaks are thrown out and sadly I can't see that happening for a very long time(Starmer pick for General Secretary was Emily Oldknow)

It's also a failure of the Labour left for not kicking these arseholes out.
 
Sweet Square said:
Starmer pick for General Secretary was Emily Oldknow
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She's John Ashworth's wife. The guy who, 3 days before the election last year had his 'bants' phone call with a tory mate leaked saying corbyn can't win.

Oldknow is currently a senior director at Unison.

Unison backed starmer without even holding a member ballot.
 
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