Kante or Fred?

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100% Fred. I have a soft spot for Herrera but would have to go with Fred due to the age gap.
 
Kante at anything even remotely close to his best is pretty comfortably better.

How good he's been this season I couldn't say.
 
This not a very fair comparison. It's like comparing Edgar Davids to Makelele. Two very different players.
 
KristianMackle said:
This not a very fair comparison. It's like comparing Edgar Davids to Makelele. Two very different players.
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In what way are they different? It's a fair comparison. Two players with the same role. It's just that Kante plays, or rather has played the role at world class level. I suppose in that sense there is no comparison.
 
KristianMackle said:
This not a very fair comparison. It's like comparing Edgar Davids to Makelele. Two very different players.
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Its a stupid comparison and people should get a headcheck regarding why they are making it. Completely different players.
If you dont count the facts that they are small in stature and yeah: black.
 
simplyared said:
In what way are they different? It's a fair comparison. Two players with the same role. It's just that Kante plays, or rather has played the role at world class level. I suppose in that sense there is no comparison.
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Toni Kroos plays the same role. Why arent you comparing them?
 
simplyared said:
In what way are they different? It's a fair comparison. Two players with the same role. It's just that Kante plays, or rather has played the role at world class level. I suppose in that sense there is no comparison.
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Same role? Do you also think Harry Kane and Firmino play the same "role"?
 
No player is a total match in terms of play to another player. One can’t just rule out all the comparisons because players compared are not identical in everything.

Fred and Kante play in a 2 or 3 man midfield, their functions are quite similar: 1. Zonal protection of space in front of CBs; 2. Providing a cover for a full back in their half flan. 3. Fast and efficient release of the ball from deeper position (Forward passes). 4. Bringing ball forward (dribbling).5. Ball recovery. 6. Team play organization. 7. Pressing.

Fred is a much more versatile player. He is good at deep defending (Positionally he is not worse than Kante), he is better at bringing ball forward - both from deeper position in transition or in final third in a positional attack. He plays a wider array of roles: dm, b2b, mezzala (he makes a lot of crosses for a cm), attacking midfielder. his main strength is excellent decision making: he chooses the perfect time to switch between the roles. That makes our midfield so dynamic and aggressive. He might be technically worse than Kante in certain roles.

@Ekeke already mentions that he is dribbled much more than Kante. That’s truth, but he more than makes up for it by contribution in other aspects. Fred’s weaknesses are covered by team formation and structure with a lot of aggressive partners around him who are very successful at ball recovery (check MCT, AWB recovery stats, it is insane).

OP question is: would you swap Fred for Kante? My answer is no, because we get a player (if swap) who is better than Fred at not being dribbled and shooting, but inferior at everything else.

Time of pure DMs and AMs has passed. Kante thrived in deep sitting Ranieri team where he had a pretty defensive Drinkwater as partner. He was good in Conte’s team which had 3 defenders behind him. He was good for France when he had hard working Matuidi beside him. His performance dropped when he was asked to assume a more flexible approach under Sarri.

Fred carried a struggling midfield for 3 months. before that, he was formidable in partnership with MCT. He managed to forge a partnership with Magic with all his limitations. The only thing he couldn’t do is make our midfield tick when Pereira played alongside him. But it’s asking too much.

A more versatile player with excellent decision making is much more valuable than a reputable master of one trade in modern football. That’s why I wouldn’t swap such an intelligent and capable player as Fred for a brilliant ball winner but limited footballer Kante.

please try to reconsider your perception of game and players. Too many posters treat players like brands based on their reputation (track record): oh, this is a Ferrari therefore it’s worse/better than Hyundai Sonata (Fred was a Trabant in the beginning of the season for many). Watch the games and players, they are constantly evolving.
 
ThinkTank@Cafe said:
No player is a total match in terms of play to another player. One can’t just rule out all the comparisons because players compared are not identical in everything.

Fred and Kante play in a 2 or 3 man midfield, their functions are quite similar: 1. Zonal protection of space in front of CBs; 2. Providing a cover for a full back in their half flan. 3. Fast and efficient release of the ball from deeper position (Forward passes). 4. Bringing ball forward (dribbling).5. Ball recovery. 6. Team play organization. 7. Pressing.

Fred is a much more versatile player. He is good at deep defending (Positionally he is not worse than Kante), he is better at bringing ball forward - both from deeper position in transition or in final third in a positional attack. He plays a wider array of roles: dm, b2b, mezzala (he makes a lot of crosses for a cm), attacking midfielder. his main strength is excellent decision making: he chooses the perfect time to switch between the roles. That makes our midfield so dynamic and aggressive. He might be technically worse than Kante in certain roles.

@Ekeke already mentions that he is dribbled much more than Kante. That’s truth, but he more than makes up for it by contribution in other aspects. Fred’s weaknesses are covered by team formation and structure with a lot of aggressive partners around him who are very successful at ball recovery (check MCT, AWB recovery stats, it is insane).

OP question is: would you swap Fred for Kante? My answer is no, because we get a player (if swap) who is better than Fred at not being dribbled and shooting, but inferior at everything else.

Time of pure DMs and AMs has passed. Kante thrived in deep sitting Ranieri team where he had a pretty defensive Drinkwater as partner. He was good in Conte’s team which had 3 defenders behind him. He was good for France when he had hard working Matuidi beside him. His performance dropped when he was asked to assume a more flexible approach under Sarri.

Fred carried a struggling midfield for 3 months. before that, he was formidable in partnership with MCT. He managed to forge a partnership with Magic with all his limitations. The only thing he couldn’t do is make our midfield tick when Pereira played alongside him. But it’s asking too much.

A more versatile player with excellent decision making is much more valuable than a reputable master of one trade in modern football. That’s why I wouldn’t swap such an intelligent and capable player as Fred for a brilliant ball winner but limited footballer Kante.

please try to reconsider your perception of game and players. Too many posters treat players like brands based on their reputation (track record): oh, this is a Ferrari therefore it’s worse/better than Hyundai Sonata (Fred was a Trabant in the beginning of the season for many). Watch the games and players, they are constantly evolving.
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My answer is yes because Kante has proven he can play the DM role next to Pogba, who is better than Fred on the ball. He's also done it with inferior players with Leicester winning the league.

Kante isnt a "pure DM", he did a great job breaking forward in Leicester's title win, he has more goals than Fred this season. Fred is more of an all rounder but that still leaves you needing specialists in certain areas, just like having someone more specialised like Kante does.
 
Kante 100%. By the summer if Ole gets the players he wants in Fred will be coming off the bench as a sub
 
Seriously - Kante or Fred!!!

Kante every day of the week, he’s not only a machine, but been vital in two PL winning teams. Fred has had somewhat of a resurgence, but has still been shit for the majority of his time at Utd.
 
Kante's best position is undoubtably playing deep in the centre of the pitch box to box. Lampard is playing him further forward which doesn't suit him as well. Watching Fred I would say deep box to box is as near as you'll get so fair comparison imo. So with Kante free from injury, playing in his best position, (which made him key player in 2 PL title wins) he brings more to the table than Fred. Would I swap him for Fred and put him in our midfield behind Pogba. Stupid question!
 
zakk88 said:
Kante didn't have a pre season this season and he's been in and out of the team all season with injuries, he hasn't really had a chance to build momentum with games

He hasn't really had any consistent game time this season due to niggling injuries.
He came into the season with an injury and had no pre season either
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SO he has been on the decline this season then!!

Simple fact is that Fred has been at a level that Kante hasn't reached for two seasons now.
 
Ekeke said:
If that was true his average position would be further forward than a DM. It isnt.

He goes box to box but he does it from a DM position. He goes far forward but he also goes far back, thats why his average position is level with Matic.

Matic also gets forward himself. Sometimes he even gets caught up trying to do too much himself going on a dribble instead of using teamplay.
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You do realize that by saying he gets forward and yet supports the back line too, you are highlighting the fact he is a box to box player?
Our midfield two often play deep to allow the attacking players space, its a feature of Ole's tactics.
 
Champ said:
You do realize that by saying he gets forward and yet supports the back line too, you are highlighting the fact he is a box to box player?
Our midfield two often play deep to allow the attacking players space, its a feature of Ole's tactics.
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Yes I'm completely aware that I'm saying our DMs get forward at times. Thats why I said it. They're still DMs. Thats what the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 are
 
Ekeke said:
Yes I'm completely aware that I'm saying our DMs get forward at times. Thats why I said it. They're still DMs. Thats what the 2 in a 4-2-3-1 are
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That's where we agree to disagree i feel,

They are not 'defensive midfielders', that would suggest they are there to defend the back four only, in fact I would wager that there isn't really a defensive midfielder role as such any more.

Probably the nearest to a 'traditional' DM is Rodri at City, his main job is to break attacks up and keep things ticking.
 
Looking at this thread we are now the new Rawk. We have a player who does well over a 15-20 games and he is automatically better than players who have proven at the top level for years, winning major trophies and being a STAR player. You may aswell say McTominay is better than Kante based off this season
 
Castia said:
Kanye has been quality for years but seems to be struggling with injuries/form

At this moment in time going off this season you’d have to go with Fred.
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Yes, the last time I was wowed by kanye was the My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy. Off form for a long time in my opinion.
 
Champ said:
That's where we agree to disagree i feel,

They are not 'defensive midfielders', that would suggest they are there to defend the back four only, in fact I would wager that there isn't really a defensive midfielder role as such any more.

Probably the nearest to a 'traditional' DM is Rodri at City, his main job is to break attacks up and keep things ticking.
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No, it would suggest that they are defensive minded midfielders. Their main job is to defend. Just like an AM's main job is to attack, but its not like you'll never ever see them try to win the ball or drop deep to collect the ball. Players dont stand still, they move around the pitch.
 
Ekeke said:
No, it would suggest that they are defensive minded midfielders. Their main job is to defend. Just like an AM's main job is to attack, but its not like you'll never ever see them try to win the ball or drop deep to collect the ball. Players dont stand still, they move around the pitch.
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Do you play football out of interest?!
Your contradicting everything you say!!
 
Champ said:
Do you play football out of interest?!
Your contradicting everything you say!!
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No I'm contradicting what you think, which seems incredibly incorrect. Just because 2 midfielders are playing from deep doesnt mean that over the course of 90 mins they dont go on a dribble towards the opponents box once or twice. 80% of the time they're back competing in midfield instead. Thats why their average position is deep, because going forward a couple of times isnt going to change your entire role.

Maguire goes for a dribble sometimes, it doesn't mean he's playing as a box to box midfielder
 
Johan07 said:
Its a stupid comparison and people should get a headcheck regarding why they are making it. Completely different players.
If you dont count the facts that they are small in stature and yeah: black.
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I got a warning after saying something similar to this.

My comment was a response to one poster who said Kalidou Koulibaly was no better than Eric Bailly.
 
Seems to be some uncertainty on here as to the role Fred plays for man utd. We've got AM's, DM's, CM's and Box to Box. As I see it he's playing as a box to box midfielder. Our very own Roy Keane was probably the best box to box MF the PL has ever witnessed. One of Fred's biggest weeknesses imo is that he seems clueless when he gets forward into the final 3rd and has to make quick decisions. Kante's best position is also playing box to box. Both Keane and Kante will often find themselves in the final 3rd either making goal assists or even scoring themselves. Some posters acting as if getting forward is forbidden territory for a DM or Box to box, which i'm afraid to say is bollocks.
 
Kante’s energy and hounding of players made him the best I’ve ever seen in that position. Sadly that has taken its toll on his body.
 
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