Again you are misunderstanding the point. When someone says "Premier League proven" it is said as a plus point to signing them, it is only ever said in a positive context. Due to this when someone says it they are generally saying that player has done well in the Premier League, Havertz so far has flopped on the Premier League so it's weird use of the phrase.
Jurriën Timber | Arsenal player
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Again you are misunderstanding the point. When someone says "Premier League proven" it is said as a plus point to signing them, it is only ever said in a positive context. Due to this when someone says it they are generally saying that player has done well in the Premier League, Havertz so far has flopped on the Premier League so it's weird use of the phrase.
I think its more PL adjusted then proven.
I think we are going to regret missing out on him... oh well, another few years of thinking we're in for Frenkie should ease the worry...
We can't have 2 short CB in EPL. So I think we have to give it a miss.
We have yet to sell a CB this summer. Until we move some players it makes zero sense to bring in more competition. Especially if Maguire refuses to move.
Timber should thank Martinez for any move he makes to England...the reception for him will be in stark contrast to the one the genius pundit gave Licha on his arrival.
Just get Bastoni, the lad has been steadily improving and now has established himself as leading CB in Series A.
I only rate a handful who is actually better than him (including KMJ, Bremer and Skriniar)
Plus, his 190cm frame is definitely useful asset in EPL.
I only rate a handful who is actually better than him (including KMJ, Bremer and Skriniar)
Plus, his 190cm frame is definitely useful asset in EPL.
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Bastoni will be more expensive than Kim Min-jae and he's left footed. We need someone to cover for Varane, not Martinez. (Shaw can play there). We got Lindelof, but I don't think he's good enough, even if he did well in his absence.
I think Bastoni and KMJ have pretty similar market value but Inter president is not named De Laurentiis.
So I think the negotiation would be more fruitful.
I do believe that Fikayo Tomori was flogged out too prematurely by Chelsea (typical huh?!)
He'd be a great coup for EPL, he's deceptively rapid and strong for a CB his size
So I think the negotiation would be more fruitful.
I do believe that Fikayo Tomori was flogged out too prematurely by Chelsea (typical huh?!)
He'd be a great coup for EPL, he's deceptively rapid and strong for a CB his size
Haha! Ouch and touché that last one. Both Utrecht-born as well, arguably the greatest town for Dutch-bred players not named Cruyff.I still think you're underselling De Ligt at Juventus (he needed the injuries to re-establish himself as a starter, but then he did remain one and was important), but anyway. I agree that the Ajax academy is overrated a little - if not as much as you say. I mean, they do have a great production line there, more than many top clubs (even if PSV and Feyenoord are doing fairly alright in that sense right now as well), but obviously it's for a very specific style. It's a bit like some Dortmund players recently: they stand out in their home system, but may not necessarily have the attributes to perform at the same level in a different context. I think people tend to forget that for Ajax, where the club's overall play style is applied across the academy from the youngest stages. So, transfer an Ajax player to Union Berlin or a Sean Dyche team, and there's a good chance of failure, cause they've never been trained in that style. But put them in a functional similar setup, and you have a much higher chance of success.
That's why I wouldn't necessarily think Arsenal are buying a dud in Timber, since he'll feel right at home in their setup. But I agree, it totally remains to be seen if he can make the step up to the speed and physicality of the EPL, and he is either way unlikely to become any kind of leader figure for them (unlike Martinez). So there is a significant risk that Arsenal are just buying a versatile back-up player, in which case he's pretty expensive. But given his stylistic fit, the risk shouldn't be huge (especially with the sort of cash EPL clubs have to splash around), and he might very well come good. I guess we'll see!
Btw, shouldn't you be a limited sympathetic to the Timber family given his twin brother Quinten's season at your club?
Regarding the Ajax-academy (I'll stop the comments after this one) I think a lot of people think the likes of Frenkie de Jong and Ziyech came through their ranks, which they most certainly did not. De Ligt is possibly a good defender at a European top side. And that's the only one they have produced for two decades. Yes, a lot of players are still being sold to great competions, precisely because they think Ajax delivers good players (Van de Beek anyone?), when they're actually average 99% of the time. AZ probably has the better record and would be the place I'd look were I in charge.
Timber was player of the season and talent of the season 2 years ago though, which was a unique combination for the Eredivisie. And still I think, Lisandro made him look way better than he was and this showed last year. Timber's terrible against physical forwards that like to head a ball. Could you name any PL side that has one?
I think you're spot on. Spain for instance would have been a much better destination for Timber.
Yeah i think he can play a RB a la Trent for Liverpool too.
Not to be 100 % convinced. But i think Pep and City should be happy with Saliba injury. Arsenal just collapsed totally after Saliba injury. And it mean. I prefer Saliba over Timber as CB. Why i agree with Timber as RB
Yeah, good points. I would say the heading thing is exaggerated for the EPL though; that's not as common anymore as it used to be. But anyway, we'll see how he does if the transfer goes through! (It's not official yet, is it? I haven't seen it reported on Teletekst I don't think.)Haha! Ouch and touché that last one. Both Utrecht-born as well, arguably the greatest town for Dutch-bred players not named Cruyff.
Regarding the Ajax-academy (I'll stop the comments after this one) I think a lot of people think the likes of Frenkie de Jong and Ziyech came through their ranks, which they most certainly did not. De Ligt is possibly a good defender at a European top side. And that's the only one they have produced for two decades. Yes, a lot of players are still being sold to great competions, precisely because they think Ajax delivers good players (Van de Beek anyone?), when they're actually average 99% of the time. AZ probably has the better record and would be the place I'd look were I in charge.
Timber was player of the season and talent of the season 2 years ago though, which was a unique combination for the Eredivisie. And still I think, Lisandro made him look way better than he was and this showed last year. Timber's terrible against physical forwards that like to head a ball. Could you name any PL side that has one?
The Premier League proven brigade is back? I can easily give you opposite examples. Raul Jiménez was a luxury bench warmer at Benfica, Jota showed nothing more than being average and Ruben Neves was 3rd choice at Porto.
And that guy Boly was awful here, but yet still managed to keep getting contracts at Premier League.
And that guy Boly was awful here, but yet still managed to keep getting contracts at Premier League.
Only one of these made it to a top PL club.
I do agree though PL proven is over stated, but those are poor examples
A high quality player who has skill and a strong competitive mindset will succeed nonetheless (obviously not talking about serious injuries). I think what makes a highly skilled player to succeed it's the mindset to overcome difficulties. Basically being born with a good personality to stand up against the highly demanding environment that is high performance sports will do all the difference.
A good player without the right mindset will need favorable conditions to succeed, despite having enough talent to do it.
He was rated as a top talent a year ago, I'm surprised arsenal has found no opposition with this transfer. I'd expected other teams involved but it seems it'll be arsenal with no opposition.
It was my understanding that Timber was ETH's preferred choice last season but was hands off so switched to Martinez, I agree that playing with 2 short CBs would be asking for trouble, shame because obviously ETH rates him
speaking to Arsenal fans they seem to think that Arteta wants him to challenge/replace Ben White at right back and not use him so much as CB, but he does have that in his game if needed.
He had a poor season.
Its also quite interesting that he didnt want to come to United to fight for his place, Lisandro who we signed instead of him is almost a fixture in the team.
Now he will probably go to Arsenal as 2nd fiddle to Ben White.
Yeah but he's much better as a CB. Guess White is also a CB by trade as well though. Tomiyasu would probably be their main RB if fit.
Makes me think that maybe Saliba isn't as close to signing a new contract as they think... otherwise it all sounds a bit like when Arteta supposedly wanted to sign Martinez last year, but to play LB...that would have been mad!
On Timber, from listening to Ajax/Holland fans it sounds like he's a very athletic and press resistant defender, although not the best passer. You probably could play him with Martinez in the EPL, but you'd need a tall DM to drop and mark any target men, and also an aerially dominant GK along with enough tall players in other positions to cover set pieces.
I thought this guy was destined for us. I think he even went to watch the FA Cup final.
Yeah a year ago our prime target was Timber. If not for LVG I think we'd had him here, looking it back I think it was a blessing as we end up buying Lisandro.
Saliba just signed, it's all been agreed and reported by all the reputable news breakers.
Tomiyasu is good anywhere across the back four, so I suspect he will be used as a backup in every position. He may end up LB2 if KT leaves.
When Saliba went down our season went to pot. So I think to help alleviate that White will be used as RB and a backup CB, with Timber and Tomiyasu also as options.
It seems to me like Timber may be used as a RB, but play the same kind of role as Zinchenko (that psuedo-mid role).
I think the depth chart will look like this:
LB - Zinchenko, KT (?), Tomiyasu, Kiwior
LCB - Gabriel, Kiwior, Tomiyasu
RCB - Saliba, White, Timber, Tomiyasu
RB - White, Timber, Tomiyasu
There are only eight players there (inc KT), which probably isn't enough. Though they are all versatile bar the starting CB pair.
Saliba hasn't been officially confirmed from what I can see, so I wasn't sure. Seems more likely he will stay at this point though.
Certainly versatile, and if KT does leave then I guess he'll help make up the numbers.
Still feels a bit odd, but it's a decent price so maybe that's the main point. As for playing a similar role to Zinchenko but on the right, I'm unconvinced that'll work. Zinchenko was actually a CM, converted to LB, and he played that hybrid role at City. Timber is a CB, who can play RB if necessary, but hasn't really played in CM.
Can't say I've watched much of him, but all of the stats and highlights suggest that he's excellent on the ball for a defender, is press-resistant, is a good passer and is able to move the ball forward (carrying/passing). I think he could play the role, though I don't think we could have both Zinchenko and him doing it at the same time.
Or maybe he's just come in to backup Saliba and White. Who knows? It's interesting nonetheless, and he's another young talented player to add to our growing core of players yet to reach their peak.
Yep, they wanted 60m or something as well for him and now he is almost half the price.
Lisandro is the better player, I'm glad for LVG.
Certainly is good on the ball and is extremely press resistant. Dutch fans I know say his passing is suspect though. Not the worst, but certainly not his strength.
Stone was a hard core CB now plays CB-DM-CM-even AM sometimes in a single game. Good players adapt.
Days of making players to a posting are gone. This was true for some time for attacking players now something similar is happening for defence.
Btw last year aswell when we were interested in Martinez we were looking to play him LB and then moved to Zinchenko when he made clear he wanted to work with ETH.
My guess is he'll just replace White before long, provide more pace and strength but generally be a versatile option like Akanji was for City this past year.
Arteta isn't Pep though. City using Stones in midfield was a solution to their squad dynamic at the time, it doesn't mean every other team should try and replicate that by sticking players in positions they're not accustomed to. I wouldn't be surprised to see Stones play primary in defence again next season.
And I was aware Arteta was interested in Martinez to play LB, which would have been a terrible idea.
Inverting Fullbacks is not a thing that only City or Even Arsenal use.
Liverpool/Brighton use it aswell.
Also I am not sure how much you follow our team but I believe Timber would work well in our system as a RB. Even Martinez would have worked really well. Currently when we use Zinchenko to invert, when there is roll over in possession Gabriel moves wide to close down the attacker from that flank and Zinchenko drops in between Saliba and Gabriel. So for the time being Zinchenko plays as a CB and Gabriel as LB. Gabriel is a good defender thus he is ok but Zinchenko not so much and now he defending at the centre of the pitch were errors are costly. Timber/Martinez helps mitigate that problem. They may not be flamboyant but both can play the line breaking passes and are press-ressistant which is the requirement for that role.
Great points there, mate. In the Gvardiol thread there was a poster wondering what City will do with so many center backs and the answer can be found pretty much here in this thread.
The whole inverted full-backs tend to dominate the center of the pitch leaving teams that use it vulnerable in wide areas - OGS exploited that pretty well in some games against City and Pep. Great notice of you that Zinchenko drops into CB position once possession is lost and the counter press didn't work in the desired way to win the ball back immediately - same we can notice with Stones who drops there for City while Akanji takes responsibility to defend the wide area and that is a tactical solution to answer that vulnerability in those areas.
What it does is simply more effective use of players in that position, where full-backs now don't have to cover so much distance as is the case when you have someone overlapping in attack and yet there are more helpful for their respective team as having more numbers in midfield leads to chances of better quality than those created by crossing from wide areas.
That's why in City we"ll see Ake, Akanji, and unfortunately, Gvardiol soon as they are center-backs who are pretty much comfortable in defending the wide areas when required to.
Anyway, I think Timber is a very good signing for you, especially at the quoted price. Despite his last season wasn't as good as the previous one, his talent and versatility are obvious and I'm kind of jealous of that deal, seeing our club barely solving what are the most urgent needs, but theoretically, I will gladly have Timber here to rotate with Dalot and/or cover Varane when absent.
Full agreement reached.
Say what you want about Havertz, Rice and Timber.
But I absolutely love that we have gone out and made three huge signings (money wise) early on. This is simply unheard of for us over the last two decades.
But I absolutely love that we have gone out and made three huge signings (money wise) early on. This is simply unheard of for us over the last two decades.
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Think he will do well at right back there.
3 very good signings IMO. By law of averages, I think at least one will flop. But they make Arsenal look much, much stronger. I'm more convinced now that Arsenal will remain in the title picture next season
Like us, I still think you lack a proper #9 though. Is that on the cards?
200m from Arsenal ! Wow!!!
€45m Arsenal bid accepted
Inverted fullbacks aren't even a new thing, its basically Netherlands total football. Cruyff did it when he managed Barcelona too. That's probably where Pep got the idea.
Martinez isn't anywhere near athletic enough to work well in that system. He's a good footballer so I'm sure he'd do ok, but it would be a waste of his talents. Similar to buying Timber to predominantly pay him at RB.
I expect he'll be playing second fiddle to Saliba and White anyway, so as a squad player who can cover RB and CB it's a relatively good signing for that price.
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