I don't think it's absurd to say a player who's been in the league for 3 years is proven here. Sancho hadn't even played in the PL when you spent more than we did on Havertz on him.
Jurriën Timber | Arsenal player
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I suppose he's proven to a degree, it's just that he'd proven to be an underwhelming signing for Chelsea, given the hype and talent. What we should be saying is he's EPL assimilated.
It looks like Arteta will use him in a different role to what the Chavs were using him in. Hopefully that brings the best out of him and unlocks his talent.
I meant if you signed Sancho right now.
What has he proven in his time here? Mostly that he'll flatter to deceive.
Saying "Premier League proven" should mean that they have proven to be a good Premier League player. Not just that they've been here a while. By your standards Phil Jones is more "Premier League proven" than nearly anyone.
Well even assimilated has an inference that the assimilation has some value. Considering he's got worse the longer he's been here I'd say that's untrue.
Maybe Arteta will weave some magic and turn him into a player. I personally think you'll be trying to flog him to Wolfsburg for 18m in a couple of years but who knows.
Exactly. PL proven means they've proven they can do it in the PL, something Havertz and Sancho have both struggled to do.
He has finished above us (and in top 4) 2 of his 3 seasons here and also won CL in that time, so knows what it takes to compete at the highest level on multiple fronts. Not sure how much more "proven" someone can be but I won't argue on semantics. Let's face it - with both Sancho and Havertz neither have proved worthy of their high transfer fees. If they cost £20-30mil no one would question how "proven" they are.
I agree he has been overall underwhelming for Chelsea and feel we've overpaid by maybe £10-15mil. Yes looks like Arteta will use him as a midfielder not a forward.
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Harry Maguire has finished above you a bunch also. He's also been in the Prem for donkeys years. We will take 60m please.
Ah but Arteta doesn't see anything valuable in Maguire, sorry. He obviously sees something in Havertz worth paying for. He's also too old for Arteta to spend that kind of money on. Maybe we can offer you £10mil? I think he might be an upgrade on Holding.
Weird cause Maguire has had a lot more good performances in this league. Anyway I'll hope for you that Havertz has some freak turn around where he looks like a player who can put in consistent performances in the Premier League.
Yeh, Maguire is 6 yrs older so it makes sense that he's shown more overall than a 24yo. Yes, I also hope that he doesn't turn out to be a German Pepe.
Is this the point where we hijack the Timber deal like we did with Martinez?
Why aren't we after Timber if we were after Kim? I get we have a limited money pool but it doesn't explain why Kim was going to be our first signing before Bayern swooped in, particularly at the prices being banded around.
he's more PL unproven than proven, in my book
or rather, he's proven that he isn't good enough
Im confused what thread this is
Mudryk says hello
Not even close to being the same profile of player.
Kim smoke was mostly from Italy. The English sources close to United just confirmed interest but nothing as advanced as what Italian outlets were gossiping.
I personally went off him when he decided to stay at Ajax to "not hurt his National team chances". Good player, but had the chance to step up to a new league and went for the safe option.
Too short to make it in the PL
Understand the frustration, but Timber has been a complete lightweight and showed absolutely nothing during Ajax pathetic 3rd place finish despite having twice the budget of the second team in that ranking. Martinez was very reliable during their championship years under ETH and in the CL. Arsenal might well have spend their money on a dud that just had a completely forgettable season in the Eredivisie. Many teams are overpaying for the mythical glow of the Ajax academy, which is mostly smart marketing. De Ligt was a disaster in Italy and Juve sold and lost around 20 mil on that business. De Ligt is doing ok-ish in Munchen now though. He might be the only player from the Ajax academy in the past 20 years that is actually possibly above average. Don't feel too bad about Timber/Martinez for now.
Ah, semantics. I can agree that he (and Sancho) may not be "good enough" for a top club (or at least haven't shown it yet) but I'm pretty sure they'd do fine at smaller clubs.
They're not quite in Pepe territory yet - now that's a player we can all agree couldn't cut it at this level.
TBF there looks to be a player in there somewhere, hard to judge considering the circus at Chelsea last season. But I'm glad it didn't work out with him; think the 3 players we got instead (for much cheaper too) was heaps better business.
It's not hard to show more than a 24yo when that 24yo is Havertz, comes with the territory of being quite rubbish for 2 years.
Don't worry, Arteta will change that. Just like he transformed Xhaka.
Back to Timber, seems like a perfect complement to what Zinchenko does on the other side for us.
Manchester united are always interested in good players.
De Ligt was nowhere near a disaster at Juve. He had a rough start but then became one of their key players. And yes, Timber had a poor season, but given all of Ajax were crap after having been great just the year before, you have to apportion significant blame to Schreuder for that development.
That's not saying that Timber is guaranteed to be great, and I agree he didn't step up when needed last season (but then who did at Ajax?); but I think you're going well overboard in your criticism here.
Yeah, I said De Ligt might be the exception, but he started out 1st choice, feel down the pecking order radpidly after some terrible performances and only played games after no less than three of the players ahead of him at Juve got months long injuries. I like De Ligt and hope he makes it, but he was only a 'key player' because they had no alternatives and weren't sad to sell him. I think Bayern is a MUCH better fit and I hope he makes it there.
Back on topic: just saying Timber was average and did not show any signs of If he had performed like this in any team but Ajax, no one would have had any interest in him at all. And asking: who did? sort of is my point. If anyone did step up, buy that guy. Not the one that was acceptable during their decent spell, but argauably fell apart once you guys bought Martinez. Sure: Schreuder is to blame. And after that Heitinga is to blame. But I think Timber should carry at least some of that blame himself.
Somehow 'Ajax academy' is still is a sort of quality trademark internationally and I just feel clubs and fans are still susceptible to it, even when it has been unwarranted for some time. De Ligt might be the exception, but I'll need to see if he turns out to have a better career than De Vrij, Van Dijk etc. I think Man Utd have done the best business with Martinez and predict that Arsenal will have an ok-ish squad player at best.
And of course, I love me a bit of Ajax-bashing, but it's just amazing that they still have that reputation of having an elite academy, when we all agee that the best players to come out of Holland since Ajax-graduate Sneijder 20+ years ago have not been Ajax-bred. I think you're not missing out on much with Timber, even if I haven't followed him up close that much.
...or ETH made them look much better than they are!!!!
I still think you're underselling De Ligt at Juventus (he needed the injuries to re-establish himself as a starter, but then he did remain one and was important), but anyway. I agree that the Ajax academy is overrated a little - if not as much as you say. I mean, they do have a great production line there, more than many top clubs (even if PSV and Feyenoord are doing fairly alright in that sense right now as well), but obviously it's for a very specific style. It's a bit like some Dortmund players recently: they stand out in their home system, but may not necessarily have the attributes to perform at the same level in a different context. I think people tend to forget that for Ajax, where the club's overall play style is applied across the academy from the youngest stages. So, transfer an Ajax player to Union Berlin or a Sean Dyche team, and there's a good chance of failure, cause they've never been trained in that style. But put them in a functional similar setup, and you have a much higher chance of success.
That's why I wouldn't necessarily think Arsenal are buying a dud in Timber, since he'll feel right at home in their setup. But I agree, it totally remains to be seen if he can make the step up to the speed and physicality of the EPL, and he is either way unlikely to become any kind of leader figure for them (unlike Martinez). So there is a significant risk that Arsenal are just buying a versatile back-up player, in which case he's pretty expensive. But given his stylistic fit, the risk shouldn't be huge (especially with the sort of cash EPL clubs have to splash around), and he might very well come good. I guess we'll see!
Btw, shouldn't you be a limited bit sympathetic to the Timber family given his twin brother Quinten's season at your club?
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It is proven he can't deal with the pace and strength of defenders in EPL, and couldn't replicate the height he showed in Germany. So yes, he is "Premier League proven". Phil Jones is proven to be injury prone as well. They are all "proven".
Havertz after 3 years in EPL, of course he is EPL proven to Arteta and Edu as well. They know exactly the performance of the player in EPL they brought in.
He is proven then. EPL proven can be a success, failure or mediocre, but it is still proven. Any players play in EPL for 3 years are EPL proven. Can't use adjust to a new league or new team as excuses. Pepe is EPL proven as well, and Arteta can't wait to ship him out.
you’re joking right?
Nope. We just have a different opinion on the terminology of "EPL proven". To some it only means proven to be a success. I don't want to hijack the Timber thread so i will stop here.
So to clarify, your opinion of PL proven is anyone who's played in it for a couple of years? If not, please clarify.
Yes. That is just my opinion though. So the player's ability is proven in this league after 3 years. He can't use adjust to a new league, new country, new football club/coach/teammates/tactics as excuses. Use Arsenal as example, Pepe is proven he is mediocre at best, and Odegaard is a success. They are all proven in this league.
He was poor last year
I understand there are people use this term for success only, but there are players can't adjust to EPL but they are great players, like Robben, or Forlan? How would you describe them? Were they shit?
Anyway i have to stop here. it is a thread about Timber. It is just my opinion and no need to get hang up on the terminology.
if players can’t adjust to the PL they are not PL proven
Forlan was shit at United, for sure
Fair enough, thanks for clarifying.
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