Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

Nogbadthebad said:
He was also never out of the top 3 at the end of the season during the PL era.

3 or 4 transitions, and never dropped below 3rd
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Again, it’s fair to say it was a slightly different era where we were only ever competing with one or two other really strong teams (as opposed to maybe 3 or 4 now) but the ability to keep the squad churning over without ever really upsetting the balance was unparalleled… Even the famous “You’ll never win anything with kids” year was only possible because he still had a good amount of veterans (Bruce, Pallister, Cantona, Irwin, Schmeichel) and youngish players approaching their prime (Keane, Cole, technically Giggs) to offset the influx of inexperienced youth…. Which then repeated itself with those players in the veteran role when Rooney & Ronaldo came in.

Even hiss last team, which was easily his weakest, and which Moyes ballsed up, was still technically well balanced age wise, if not in talent.
 
Judas said:
There was. But the team he's relying on is even older now. His purchases have underwhelmed, and players who never let him down, are now often the reason why things are failing. It's a totally different situation.
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Good point but we're not really privy to what's going on behind the scenes and what his thought process yet we're claiming he's a broken man and they're skint even though they spent 100 million on Nunez just last summer.

Idk how many transfers have actually been failures, people also fail to point out how many players he improved that were already there and were deemed not good enough for a top four side.

Josh 76 said:
This was a funny response. If it wasn’t for the greatest team ever (Barcalona), Fergie would have won 4 CL in a fecking row. If it wasn’t for Roman’s billions, Fergie would have won 5 PL in a row.

End of the day, it’s what you win, not what you could have won.
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Arsenal finished second in one of those Chelsea titles and we were clearly going through a rebuild at the time so doubt five in a row was anywhere near possible. Also 4 CL's in a row? TF are you talking about? what does Barca have to do with us losing to Bayern in 2010?

You're also kind of proving his point, nobody looks at those United teams as failures for losing to Barcelona and a doped up Chelsea just as nobody should look at Liverpool as a failure for not overcoming a much more doped up City and a Real Madrid side that collectively has more CL's than most top European sides.
 
The Corinthian said:
It's easy to say in hindsight, but I wonder would it have been better to keep Mane (on improved terms) and take the £60+m that was being offered (or rumoured) for Salah. I just feel Mane in that front line is crucial to the way you play.

Obviously, that windfall of £60m could have been utilised on a midfield player too (and not just Carvalho, Nunez, and Gakpo).
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Like you say, it's difficult to say. It could be that Mane really wanted to leave and wouldn't have signed a new contract regardless. Also, 60m is just 20m more than what we got for Mane, so not sure if it would have much difference.

The Purley King said:
The main problem he’ll have is that of the players that need replacing, if he choses to sell them, he won't get enough money to buy the calibre of players that he wants. I know his style isn't overly reliant on central midfielders that can control a game, but when you look at the likes of Modric, Casemiro, De Bruyne, Verrati, Kroos and what Liverpool currently have available, its a big difference.
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Agreed. Which is why I don’t think we’ll get get Bellingham as he’ll take up our entire budget.

And as I said, our entire midfield needs a total rewamp. Interesting times :lol:
 
The people who say he will walk, are just deluding themselves. Just like back in 20-21 when they kept losing at home and then 21-22 almost a quadraple. Get used to it. Liverpool will come back stronger unfortuantely next season. The only good thing is, we now have a manager who can possibly go toe to toe with Klopp. But Klopp ain't going anywhere. Just hope they miss out of the CL.
 
RVN1991 said:
Arsenal finished second in one of those Chelsea titles and we were clearly going through a rebuild at the time so doubt five in a row was anywhere near possible
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Since we finished second to Chelsea in 05/06 and 09/10, it would have been 6 in a row.
 
Josh 76 said:
This was a funny response. If it wasn’t for the greatest team ever (Barcalona), Fergie would have won 4 CL in a fecking row. If it wasn’t for Roman’s billions, Fergie would have won 5 PL in a row.

End of the day, it’s what you win, not what you could have won.
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and if it wasn't for Man City's billions, we would have won the league in 11/12 as well.

Just shows you how much the sugar daddy approach skewed the PL landscape.
 
RVN1991 said:
Good point but we're not really privy to what's going on behind the scenes and what his thought process yet we're claiming he's a broken man and they're skint even though they spent 100 million on Nunez just last summer.

Idk how many transfers have actually been failures, people also fail to point out how many players he improved that were already there and were deemed not good enough for a top four side.



Arsenal finished second in one of those Chelsea titles and we were clearly going through a rebuild at the time so doubt five in a row was anywhere near possible. Also 4 CL's in a row? TF are you talking about? what does Barca have to do with us losing to Bayern in 2010?

You're also kind of proving his point, nobody looks at those United teams as failures for losing to Barcelona and a doped up Chelsea just as nobody should look at Liverpool as a failure for not overcoming a much more doped up City and a Real Madrid side that collectively has more CL's than most top European sides.
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You’re missing my point. You can’t say we would have won more if hadn’t been for a certain team. I was just being sarcastic.

The post I was responding to was, “if it hadn’t been for Pep, Klopp would have won 2 more PL titles”.

So I gave examples of what Fergie would have won if hadn’t been for Chelsea and Barcelona. Also I just need to point out, had it not been for Wenger (1998), Utd would have won 5 in a row.

I’m not saying Klopp and his Liverpool team weren’t not good, but some of the media and fans have really exaggerated their dominance. This Klopp team will be remembered like the Leeds team of the 70’s. A really good team, which failed at the final hurdle numerous times.
 
Ramshock said:
I dunno, that flicked goal was a thing of beauty and not something a confidence shot player would do.
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I follow linfield in the Irish league which is primarily a part time league and have seen these goals. It is great to see but it happens at all levels of football
 
Mockney said:
Again, it’s fair to say it was a slightly different era where we were only ever competing with one or two other really strong teams (as opposed to maybe 3 or 4 now) but the ability to keep the squad churning over without ever really upsetting the balance was unparalleled… Even the famous “You’ll never win anything with kids” year was only possible because he still had a good amount of veterans (Bruce, Pallister, Cantona, Irwin, Schmeichel) and youngish players approaching their prime (Keane, Cole, technically Giggs) to offset the influx of inexperienced youth…. Which then repeated itself with those players in the veteran role when Rooney & Ronaldo came in.

Even hiss last team, which was easily his weakest, and which Moyes ballsed up, was still technically well balanced age wise, if not in talent.
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I can remember in the last two or three years thinking that he had lost a bit of trust in the youngsters and the team felt a bit different because of that. Things like bringing Scholes back from retirement rather than trusting a young Pogba and not replacing an aging midfield quick enough. He was a master at getting the balance right before that and keeping the team fresh, but some of the veterans were a few years older than usual in that last team.

There was also the Van Persie signing, which although amazing was quite unusual for the amount of money and his age for Ferguson, but that felt like someone he had always wanted to be fair.
 
Josh 76 said:
You’re missing my point. You can’t say we would have won more if hadn’t been for a certain team. I was just being sarcastic.

The post I was responding to was, “if it hadn’t been for Pep, Klopp would have won 2 more PL titles”.

So I gave examples of what Fergie would have won if hadn’t been for Chelsea and Barcelona. Also I just need to point out, had it not been for Wenger (1998), Utd would have won 5 in a row.

I’m not saying Klopp and his Liverpool team weren’t not good, but some of the media and fans have really exaggerated their dominance. This Klopp team will be remembered like the Leeds team of the 70’s. A really good team, which failed at the final hurdle numerous times.
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And you missed mine.

You were throwing trophies around without distinction for their significance nor difficulty to win them and neglecting the context in which they were won. He was up against arguably the greatest manager of this generation who's backed by an oil state. He brought back Liverpool to being a force to be reckoned with in the league and in Europe after decades of underachievement. Like it or not, Liverpool have been a dominant team in the last seasons and Man City's only real challenger for the crown in the league whilst also being one of the few english teams to have a real and consistent go at the Champions League. Neither Man City (Champions League) nor Chelsea (league) have been that consistent. And let's not even start talking about Arsenal or MU during that time. All of this whilst having less financial backing (not that they were poor by any means). They were the only team that prevented the PL from turning into a one team league, and that's not an exaggeration, it's a fact.
 
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That_Bloke said:
And you missed mine.

You were throwing trophies around without distinction for their significance nor difficulty to win them and neglecting the context in which they were won. He was up against arguably the greatest manager of this generation who's backed by an oil state. He brought back Liverpool to being a force to be reckoned with in the league and in Europe after decades of underachievement. Like it or not, Liverpool have been a dominant team in the last seasons and Man City's only real challenger for the crown in the league whilst also being one of the few english teams to have a real and consistent go at the Champions League. Neither Man City (Champions League) nor Chelsea (league) have been that consistent. And let's not even start talking about Arsenal or MU during that time. All of this whilst having less financial backing (not that they were poor by any means). They were the only team that prevented the PL from turning into a one team league, and that's not an exaggeration, it's a fact.
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Great post. Be careful though, you might get banned for being a scouse lover and speaking sense instead of following the narrative that the entire run was nothing but luck and that Klopp is checking himself into an asylum after he gets fired at the end of the season.
 
That_Bloke said:
And you missed mine.

You were throwing trophies around without distinction for their significance nor difficulty to win them and neglecting the context in which they were won. He was up against arguably the greatest manager of this generation who's backed by an oil state. He brought back Liverpool to being a force to be reckoned with in the league and in Europe after decades of underachievement. Like it or not, Liverpool have been a dominant team in the last seasons and Man City's only real challenger for the crown in the league whilst also being one of the few english teams to have a real and consistent go at the Champions League. Neither Man City (Champions League) nor Chelsea (league) have been that consistent. And let's not even start talking about Arsenal or MU during that time. All of this whilst having less financial backing (not that they were poor by any means). They were the only team that prevented the PL from turning into a one team league, and that's not an exaggeration, it's a fact.
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You shouldn't have to explain this but unfortunately you do. Dislike the club, dislike him but he's undoubtedly been incredible for them. I hope their current form continues though, it's joyous to watch.
 
Just because we haven’t won the big trophies for a decade now, doesn’t mean that the smaller ones are comparable.

CL and PL trophies are priceless. No amount of domestic cup or EL trophies can create the same value or prestige.

If I had the choice today that within the next 10 years United would win
A: 1 PL and 1 CL
B: 5 FA Cups and 5 League Cups
I would without thinking twice take option A. And I assume most sane fans would do the same.
 
That_Bloke said:
And you missed mine.

You were throwing trophies around without distinction for their significance nor difficulty to win them and neglecting the context in which they were won. He was up against arguably the greatest manager of this generation who's backed by an oil state. He brought back Liverpool to being a force to be reckoned with in the league and in Europe after decades of underachievement. Like it or not, Liverpool have been a dominant team in the last seasons and Man City's only real challenger for the crown in the league whilst also being one of the few english teams to have a real and consistent go at the Champions League. Neither Man City (Champions League) nor Chelsea (league) have been that consistent. And let's not even start talking about Arsenal or MU during that time. All of this whilst having less financial backing (not that they were poor by any means). They were the only team that prevented the PL from turning into a one team league, and that's not an exaggeration, it's a fact.
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You are agreeing with me, by disagreeing.
 
united_99 said:
Just because we haven’t won the big trophies for a decade now, doesn’t mean that the smaller ones are comparable.

CL and PL trophies are priceless. No amount of domestic cup or EL trophies can create the same value or prestige.

If I had the choice today that within the next 10 years United would win
A: 1 PL and 1 CL
B: 5 FA Cups and 5 League Cups
I would without thinking twice take option A. And I assume most sane fans would do the same.
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Yes, but for the so called ‘greatest team ever’ a single PL and CL trophy is lacklustre to say the least.
 
Balljy said:
I can remember in the last two or three years thinking that he had lost a bit of trust in the youngsters and the team felt a bit different because of that. Things like bringing Scholes back from retirement rather than trusting a young Pogba and not replacing an aging midfield quick enough. He was a master at getting the balance right before that and keeping the team fresh, but some of the veterans were a few years older than usual in that last team.

There was also the Van Persie signing, which although amazing was quite unusual for the amount of money and his age for Ferguson, but that felt like someone he had always wanted to be fair.
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Yeah that’s true. He knew he was going and winning the title became a lot more urgent.
 
ShinjiNinja26 said:
Yes, but for the so called ‘greatest team ever’ a single PL and CL trophy is lacklustre to say the least.
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They are obviously not the greatest team ever. Just because some idiots in the media pretend this doesn’t make it true.
 
united_99 said:
Just because we haven’t won the big trophies for a decade now, doesn’t mean that the smaller ones are comparable.

CL and PL trophies are priceless. No amount of domestic cup or EL trophies can create the same value or prestige.

If I had the choice today that within the next 10 years United would win
A: 1 PL and 1 CL
B: 5 FA Cups and 5 League Cups
I would without thinking twice take option A. And I assume most sane fans would do the same.
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Completely agree. I would imagine most Arsenal fans would sacrifice their three FA Cups under Wenger in exchange for winning the league this season under Arteta.
 
united_99 said:
They are obviously not the greatest team ever. Just because some idiots in the media pretend this doesn’t make it true.
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That’s the point, it’s deluded scousers in the media and their fan base spouting that shite hence the reason people keep taking the piss over the fact they’ve only won a single PL and CL in their little period of “dominance”.
 
For me it's quite simple. He is a very good inital coach. He'll come into a club and he'll get the right players in place to play his 'heavy metal football'. This happens to be very hard to play against and the club will have maybe 3-4 years of success. Then when they inevitably burn out he is found out tactically. For instance with Thiago he brought in a guy to control games but he was one player in a team of technically deficient players used to 'heavy metal' football. Once the ability to play this high paced football wanes then he is tactically terrible. All season long Liverpool have been punished for their high line but he has done nothing to change that. For years TAA has been a joke defensively but he has done nothing to coach him to be better.

Simply put the guy is a great coach in one way but when that way stops working he is hopeless. Just like he showed at Dortmund. Unfortunately for him and Liverpool, his 'one way'is unsustainable.
 
kidbob said:
For me it's quite simple. He is a very good inital coach. He'll come into a club and he'll get the right players in place to play his 'heavy metal football'. This happens to be very hard to play against and the club will have maybe 3-4 years of success. Then when they inevitably burn out he is found out tactically. For instance with Thiago he brought in a guy to control games but he was one player in a team of technically deficient players used to 'heavy metal' football. Once the ability to play this high paced football wanes then he is tactically terrible. All season long Liverpool have been punished for their high line but he has done nothing to change that. For years TAA has been a joke defensively but he has done nothing to coach him to be better.

Simply put the guy is a great coach in one way but when that way stops working he is hopeless. Just like he showed at Dortmund. Unfortunately for him and Liverpool, his 'one way'is unsustainable.
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I agree but 3-4 years’ success is a very good return. There aren’t many managers who stay at one club and be successful for longer. Pep is the current exception but allegedly there might be reasons for that.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I agree but 3-4 years’ success is a very good return. There aren’t many managers who stay at one club and be successful for longer. Pep is the current exception but allegedly there might be reasons for that.
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Oh definitely. My post isn't a criticism of Klopp, rather that he has this window of great success. If not for ETH then he would be my number 1 choice to manage United. Maybe if he had the funding like Pep does he could do it over 10 + years but I think there is a reason he picks 'underdog' clubs. He knows his style is meant for short term success and he is unsure if he can go beyond that. Maybe he can at Liverpool (I mean I do expect them to get top 4 above Spurs and Newcastle) but without huge investment I don't see it.

I always come back to one thing. If he was as good a coach as some say he is then TAA would be a better defender than he is. This is a young player with huge ability and potential but Klopp has failed to coach a single thing to him defensively after 7 years. Compare this to ETH's affect on AWB's attacking ability and its night and day. Eventually a coach needs more in their locker than 'work very hard'.

When Bayern eventually worked out that long diagonal balls destroyed his Dortmund team then Klopp had no answer. This should be worrying to Liverpool fans.
 
kidbob said:
Oh definitely. My post isn't a criticism of Klopp, rather that he has this window of great success. If not for ETH then he would be my number 1 choice to manage United. Maybe if he had the funding like Pep does he could do it over 10 + years but I think there is a reason he picks 'underdog' clubs. He knows his style is meant for short term success and he is unsure if he can go beyond that. Maybe he can at Liverpool (I mean I do expect them to get top 4 above Spurs and Newcastle) but without huge investment I don't see it.

I always come back to one thing. If he was as good a coach as some say he is then TAA would be a better defender than he is. This is a young player with huge ability and potential but Klopp has failed to coach a single thing to him defensively after 7 years. Compare this to ETH's affect on AWB's attacking ability and its night and day. Eventually a coach needs more in their locker than 'work very hard'.

When Bayern eventually worked out that long diagonal balls destroyed his Dortmund team then Klopp had no answer. This should be worrying to Liverpool fans.
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It’s a great point about coaching and one many of us lost sight of over the last 10 years. It is reasonable to expect a manager to develop what he has rather than relying solely on buying ready made solutions. Erik (plus Bennie MacCarthy, Shteeve and the rest) are doing a great with the likes of AWB and even Rashford.
 
Balljy said:
I can remember in the last two or three years thinking that he had lost a bit of trust in the youngsters and the team felt a bit different because of that. Things like bringing Scholes back from retirement rather than trusting a young Pogba and not replacing an aging midfield quick enough. He was a master at getting the balance right before that and keeping the team fresh, but some of the veterans were a few years older than usual in that last team.

There was also the Van Persie signing, which although amazing was quite unusual for the amount of money and his age for Ferguson, but that felt like someone he had always wanted to be fair.
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I think one time we played Rafael and O Shea instead of a young Pogba.
That looked madness back then, but having had him back with us for 6 years until recently, have we not reconsidered that maybe there was a huge reason for it after all?
 
united_99 said:
Just because we haven’t won the big trophies for a decade now, doesn’t mean that the smaller ones are comparable.

CL and PL trophies are priceless. No amount of domestic cup or EL trophies can create the same value or prestige.

If I had the choice today that within the next 10 years United would win
A: 1 PL and 1 CL
B: 5 FA Cups and 5 League Cups
I would without thinking twice take option A. And I assume most sane fans would do the same.
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You don't get to pick what success you have is the point, and winning anything breeds confidence and momentum.

If In your scenario A, if the other 8 years were woeful, whereas in B we were competing heavily for everything, I think that'd be a much closer call.
 
kidbob said:
For me it's quite simple. He is a very good inital coach. He'll come into a club and he'll get the right players in place to play his 'heavy metal football'. This happens to be very hard to play against and the club will have maybe 3-4 years of success. Then when they inevitably burn out he is found out tactically. For instance with Thiago he brought in a guy to control games but he was one player in a team of technically deficient players used to 'heavy metal' football. Once the ability to play this high paced football wanes then he is tactically terrible. All season long Liverpool have been punished for their high line but he has done nothing to change that. For years TAA has been a joke defensively but he has done nothing to coach him to be better.

Simply put the guy is a great coach in one way but when that way stops working he is hopeless. Just like he showed at Dortmund. Unfortunately for him and Liverpool, his 'one way'is unsustainable.
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Glad you made it simple for everyone.
Let's hope Ten Hag can at least give us 3-4 years of success after our last gang post Fergie!
 
I think the assumption was, they would get bought over, and rich new owners would splash the cash as they rebuild their team. That's not happening now, they need basically a whole new midfield. Their current board have tended to in the past, only spent big when they've made a sale. Hard to see who in that current team they could get big money for , maybe Salah if he fecked of to PSG possibly. Klopp never built that team overnight, it took him a while, it depends if he has the hunger to do it again.
 
One of the funniest parts of his meltdown is watching him wear that stupid hat with the LFC chicken on his forehead for every presser.
 
kidbob said:
For me it's quite simple. He is a very good inital coach. He'll come into a club and he'll get the right players in place to play his 'heavy metal football'. This happens to be very hard to play against and the club will have maybe 3-4 years of success. Then when they inevitably burn out he is found out tactically. For instance with Thiago he brought in a guy to control games but he was one player in a team of technically deficient players used to 'heavy metal' football. Once the ability to play this high paced football wanes then he is tactically terrible. All season long Liverpool have been punished for their high line but he has done nothing to change that. For years TAA has been a joke defensively but he has done nothing to coach him to be better.

Simply put the guy is a great coach in one way but when that way stops working he is hopeless. Just like he showed at Dortmund. Unfortunately for him and Liverpool, his 'one way'is unsustainable.
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It's not an issue that he's pretty one sided tactically because it's a brilliant tactic. The problem is he utterly failed in replacing that engine room constantly with fresh legs. Thiago seemed a shrewd buy if you think in general terms but he's a completely different player from Wijnaldum and was never really suited towards their style. Keita has been awful and a crock for years. Elliot isn't even a midfielder. Carvalho was pointless. So he's still playing a bunch of players from that 2018 team 5 years later and they don't have the legs they did then, and thus you get performances last night where they blow their load in 20 minutes but eventually wear down and get circles played around them as they get exposed.

SAF sustained success for so many years not only because he was a bit more versatile, but because he constantly refreshed his squad and was always willing to deal with perhaps a year or two of growing pains blooding in the new signings. Klopp notoriously hated rotation anyways, and his style is harder on a footballers body than any other team in the world. So they now have a midfield of spent footballers and Bajtetic who's just 18 and should never have to be relied upon against fecking Real Madrid with as little experience as he has.

It's pretty clear to me that Liverpool's talent ID was more a product of their backroom staff/data dept/Edwards and less Klopp. Many of them are gone, and you can see in recent windows it's sort of a scattergun approach to signings (chasing Bellingham and Tchoumeini without backups, Nunez for a huge fee, Gakpo, Carvalho)
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
It's not an issue that he's pretty one sided tactically because it's a brilliant tactic. The problem is he utterly failed in replacing that engine room constantly with fresh legs. Thiago seemed a shrewd buy if you think in general terms but he's a completely different player from Wijnaldum and was never really suited towards their style. Keita has been awful and a crock for years. Elliot isn't even a midfielder. Carvalho was pointless. So he's still playing a bunch of players from that 2018 team 5 years later and they don't have the legs they did then, and thus you get performances last night where they blow their load in 20 minutes but eventually wear down and get circles played around them as they get exposed.

SAF sustained success for so many years not only because he was a bit more versatile, but because he constantly refreshed his squad and was always willing to deal with perhaps a year or two of growing pains blooding in the new signings. Klopp notoriously hated rotation anyways, and his style is harder on a footballers body than any other team in the world. So they now have a midfield of spent footballers and Bajtetic who's just 18 and should never have to be relied upon against fecking Real Madrid with as little experience as he has.

It's pretty clear to me that Liverpool's talent ID was more a product of their backroom staff/data dept/Edwards and less Klopp. Many of them are gone, and you can see in recent windows it's sort of a scattergun approach to signings (chasing Bellingham and Tchoumeini without backups, Nunez for a huge fee, Gakpo, Carvalho)
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Another factor (or another way of saying it) is that for heavy metal football you need young guys. You need amazing fitness (and all the help you can get!). So the physios and docs and training regimen comes into play. I remember once Neville and Keane saying that a big ‘secret’ of the 90’s SAF days was being fitter than the rest. I was struck against Real how much Pool ran out of steam. The 50/50 balls suddenly went from Red to White, even before half-time. . In the end Modrich was embarrassing a guy half his age. That’s a serious problem for Klopp. More patient styles like Real have a longer shelf life. Jurgen needs a new challenge. Liverpool need a patient rebuild in a different model. Klopp just burned them out. It’s in his face, his tired smile.
 
RVN1991 said:
Were they though? You can make the case for Robertson and maybe Salah who did come in at 40 million but Alisson wasn't cheap, neither was Van Dijk, Fabinho wasn't some diamond in the rough plucked from obscurity.

I know this is a United forum but calling his success at Liverpool "luck" is outright false. It's an ageing team asked to play a very taxing style of football, not really that big of a mystery why it's not working anymore.
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Yeah Van Dijk and Alisson weren't cheap but they both went to higher levels once brought in and you'd happily pay significantly more knowing how they'd worked out. Like I said, virtually every signing worked. Mane, Salah, Robertson, Wijnaldum even TAA wasn't a signing but you don't see him playing now like he was then. Not a single Lukaku, Pogba, Grealish, Torres (to Chelsea), Felix, Maguire, Coutinho (to Barca), Andy Carroll, Hazard (to Real), mega money signing that went wrong. Hopefully Nunez will prove to be an Andy Carroll and a return to the normal levels of 'luck' that clubs experience in the transfer market.
 
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