Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

[OutlawGER]

Klopp has been managing for 17 years and won 5 things, why the hell people think he's some kind of super manager who can win anything is beyond me.

For me, coaching underdogs like Mainz, Dortmund and also Liverpool, the way he does deserves more credit than winning big titles with big sides like Bayern, Real, Barca. Most managers can do that.

Would Mourinho be a bad manager, if he can't win titles with West Brom or Stoke for example? No. It's just about individual development. For them it would be a massive sucess to be in the first half of the league table.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Results put into (financial) context? If United and Bournemouth were to finish level on points I wouldn't have to think twice about whether or not I rate one coach's season more highly.
Ironically people here do it all the time with Guardiola, when they try to claim that his accomplishments are worthless because of Messi/his squad's strength. But if someone applies the same logic to Klopp it's suddenly outrageous.

So according to your logic. Wenger is a better manager than SAF?.

Also when you are coming up with an example it would be better if it was at least somewhat realistic! Bournemouth and United really?. Going by your logic again, Pool and Brighton have not won the league in the past 20 years. so does that mean both the clubs are the same level?

Well to be honest, what is this Liverpool team without salah?

 

[Velvet Revolver]

For me, coaching underdogs like Mainz, Dortmund and also Liverpool, the way he does deserves more credit than winning big titles with big sides like Bayern, Real, Barca. Most managers can do that.

Would Mourinho be a bad manager, if he can't win titles with West Brom or Stoke for example? No. It's just about individual development. For them it would be a massive sucess to be in the first half of the league table.

Maybe Klopp knows what he can and cannot do? maybe he is not yet the manager who can coach/manage bayern, Barca, real etc??

 

[Kapardin]

most people here must no that Klopp didnt sign or sell the players at Dortmond right ? so the money aspect had nothing to do with him, not sure how its done it pool with the transfers but also read he was no keen on Salah as well but the board had to convince him, worked a treat who ever done the deal. his club record is similar to Jose in a way, comes in his success then fades away again, hopefully pool fade away next season as my mates are doing my nut in this season.

I am not sure he didn't like Salah, bit much. But certainly, I don't think he expected a GOAT season like this one. I think Salah surprised himself actually.

 

[Thisistheone]

Don't know if Klopp picks his signings or not but you can't ignore what he does on the training pitch with them:

Salah - Deserves the biggest praise for this one. Turning him from a very good player into a top top player. Lets see if these standards at kept next year.

Oxlaide-Chamberlain - Looks twice the player now compared to his time at Arsenal. Quite a transformation. Fits the system perfectly.

Robertson - This time last year he was part of relegation fodder Hull. Was available to any top 6 club for just £8m. Now looks like one of the best left backs in England. What I was hoping Shaw would turn into.

Trent - Academy player thrown in at OT last season and now looks like one of the best English prospects in years. I'd take him to the World Cup as back-up to Walker.

Firmino - Turned him into the teams focal point up top and seems to be the one that makes it all click. Massively improved from a couple of years ago.

Mane - Looked a threat at Saints but not to this degree. Another signing who didn't cost the earth.

Annoyingly good.

 

[do.ob]

So according to your logic. Wenger is a better manager than SAF?.

Also when you are coming up with an example it would be better if it was at least somewhat realistic! Bournemouth and United really?. Going by your logic again, Pool and Brighton have not won the league in the past 20 years. so does that mean both the clubs are the same level?

Well to be honest, what is this Liverpool team without salah?

I honestly don't understand how you can get this confused about the concept of putting things into context.

 

[Murray3007]

Don't know if Klopp picks his signings or not but you can't ignore what he does on the training pitch with them:

Salah - Deserves the biggest praise for this one. Turning him from a very good player into a top top player. Lets see if these standards at kept next year.

Oxlaide-Chamberlain - Looks twice the player now compared to his time at Arsenal. Quite a transformation. Fits the system perfectly.

Robertson - This time last year he was part of relegation fodder Hull. Was available to any top 6 club for just £8m. Now looks like one of the best left backs in England. What I was hoping Shaw would turn into.

Trent - Academy player thrown in at OT last season and now looks like one of the best English prospects in years. I'd take him to the World Cup as back-up to Walker.

Firmino - Turned him into the teams focal point up top and seems to be the one that makes it all click. Massively improved from a couple of years ago.

Mane - Looked a threat at Saints but not to this degree. Another signing who didn't cost the earth.

Annoyingly good.

Sure we were linked with most of these players and the Cafe did not want as wanted Miki instead and Robertson was not good enough lol, although systems help players not sure how good they would have been here

 

[Cascarino]

So according to your logic. Wenger is a better manager than SAF?.

Where did he say that?

Don't know if Klopp picks his signings or not but you can't ignore what he does on the training pitch with them:

Salah - Deserves the biggest praise for this one. Turning him from a very good player into a top top player. Lets see if these standards at kept next year.

Oxlaide-Chamberlain - Looks twice the player now compared to his time at Arsenal. Quite a transformation. Fits the system perfectly.

Robertson - This time last year he was part of relegation fodder Hull. Was available to any top 6 club for just £8m. Now looks like one of the best left backs in England. What I was hoping Shaw would turn into.

Trent - Academy player thrown in at OT last season and now looks like one of the best English prospects in years. I'd take him to the World Cup as back-up to Walker.

Firmino - Turned him into the teams focal point up top and seems to be the one that makes it all click. Massively improved from a couple of years ago.

Mane - Looked a threat at Saints but not to this degree. Another signing who didn't cost the earth.

Annoyingly good.

He’s done a great job with them, knows how to set up an attack. Robertson was a great buy, been criminally underrated for the last couple years.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

I honestly don't understand how you can get this confused about the concept of putting things into context.

Please do elaborate what your context is? Will Jose get the same applauds if he doesn't win anything? The context is twisted and manipulated to suit interests. I am not confused i just dont agree with that.

 

[GiddyUp]

I guess I just have to accept that there is more leniency to trolling from United fans on a United message board, unless of course you are serious, then I just feel sad for you.

.

It's a valid point though and my experience with Liverpool fans, who are friends and family, has often left me scratching my head. Everybody has to be the best in their position and in the top 5 in the world when that is clearly not the case. You build up the club and players to something that at this point in time is not the case.
Every 5/6 years Liverpool come out with a fantastic attacking unit but everything else is shoddy yet the clubs supporters want us to bow down to you're percieved greatness. Every club has a few muppets but they are usually called out pretty fast. With Liverpool it's collective backslapping and a healthy dose of delusion.
Football karma has also highlighted the arrogance of the club in spectacular fashion.
Example being the Crystanbul season. You beat City after a monumental feck up from Kompany and proceed to circle jerk in the middle of the pitch for the cameras shouting this does not slip. Celebrating like the season was tied up with a big red bow but if it did come down to goal difference you would need to beat Palace by 9 goals so instead of concentrating on the points the ego of that team decided it would be no problem, even though it's only been done once in the premier league. You guys didn't know what hit you, it was hilarious and we have a gif to prove it. Also Stevie me pushing away the cameras from a sobbing Suarez, pathetic. And the crescendo was the starfish slipping to let in Ba when he specifically told his team mates, but really the cameras, that this does not slip.
I've read a lot of fan poetry from Liverpool fans but this was pure poetry.

I don't blame Liverpool fans though, you are conditioned to be that way same way a lot of United fans are obsessed with only signing players before they can shave. Remember though, you are on a United fan forum and we point out facts about you're club that you can't see the same way do for us. Klopp is a great manager no doubt but he does have some serious deficiencies that he knowsare evident by the splunking of 75 mil on another Southampton player. Mourinho is the same when it comes to game management. He never goes for the kill like a United team should but his plan(s) are more often then not solid. Evidence of this is his long list of silver won and league finishes.
If Liverpool does win the final you have to hand it to them but there is nothing I have seen over the last 30 years that would suggest you're club can sustain a level of success that the support feel they are entitled to. If you lose the final it should be a big red mark against Klopp though,more so then the club as you can't, as a manager or player, get to that many finals and have a 90% failure rate and then call you're self a success.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

Where did he say that?

'Results put into (financial) context?' This is what he said.

 

[GiddyUp]

I would like to say that my above post does not reflect the admiration for Jurgen Klopp as a manager. He is right up there with the best at the moment and the guy knows how to get his attacking players firing. He has also truly embraced the club and as a United supporter I despise him and hope he fails at everything for the duration of his contract but that doesn't mean I don't respect what he has done in the game.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

You guys have to atleast know what you're talking about when you squirm in your pants attempting to diminish what Klopp has done. As has been pointed out, Tuchel did not get Mainz promoted.

How do you not know these? And if you don't, why on earth would you so sardonically call others WUMs while embarrassing yourself in the same post?



He joined after they got promoted, but still had a tough job on his hands, which he did really well. Thanks for educating that poster.

Yeah man. So embarrassing to have made a mistake on the interesting. Thats why you were born, to correct fools like me.

 

[Pexbo]

So this Hummels comment. I know he played for him at Dortmund but I'm just trying to figure out what sort of effect he hopes it will have on the player who I assume will be starting tonight.

Motivate him to shut out Ronaldo or get in his head because he fancies playing Real?

 

[Cascarino]

He’s not saying that whoever spends less has had the better season, he’s saying that you have to take context into account.

If Burnley finish 7th it’ll be a massive achievement, whereas if Arsenal finish 6th it’ll have been a poor season. Because we’re taking context into account.

It's a valid point though and my experience with Liverpool fans, who are friends and family, has often left me scratching my head. Everybody has to be the best in their position and in the top 5 in the world when that is clearly not the case. You build up the club and players to something that at this point in time is not the case.
Every 5/6 years Liverpool come out with a fantastic attacking unit but everything else is shoddy yet the clubs supporters want us to bow down to you're percieved greatness. Every club has a few muppets but they are usually called out pretty fast. With Liverpool it's collective backslapping and a healthy dose of delusion.
.

It’s no different to United fans, after Darmiam had played a couple games he was being championed as the best RB in Europe on here. Football fans tend to overrate their own, especially those who don’t watch much football outside of their own team.

Agree about Crystanbul and the Stevie me slip, hilarious times.

 

[do.ob]

Please do elaborate what your context is? Will Jose get the same applauds if he doesn't win anything? The context is twisted and manipulated to suit interests. I am not confused i just dont agree with that.

context - the situation within which something exists or happens, and that can explain it

For example: Having lots of dollars makes it easier to achieve things than it would be if you had less dollars.

 

[JustFootballFan]

So this Hummels comment. I know he played for him at Dortmund but I'm just trying to figure out what sort of effect he hopes it will have on the player who I assume will be starting tonight.

Motivate him to shut out Ronaldo or get in his head because he fancies playing Real?

Nope. He´s just trying to talk up Lovren and subconsciously associate him with Hummels. Now all he needs is one brilliant CL game from Lovren in the next month, and some mid table team in England with too much money will be like you know Klopp is right, he´s like Hummels. *cough* West Ham *cough* Boom SOLD.

 

[DonFerguson]

Yeah man. So embarrassing to have made a mistake on the interesting. Thats why you were born, to correct fools like me.

It's embarrassing to act the way you did, filled with rancor and derision, and calling people wums, when you don't seem to anything about the topic you're discussing.

You're welcome, incidently. If you're struggling with something and need help, just hit me up.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

....
Robertson - This time last year he was part of relegation fodder Hull. Was available to any top 6 club for just £8m. Now looks like one of the best left backs in England. ......
.......

Lets not revise history. Even at Hull he was still comfortably one of the best left backs in England. Rather than Klopp improving him, it was a case of Klopp coming to his senses and realizing this kid was miles better than any other left back on his books, and he gave him a regular slot on a platform his talent deserves.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

So this Hummels comment. I know he played for him at Dortmund but I'm just trying to figure out what sort of effect he hopes it will have on the player who I assume will be starting tonight.

Motivate him to shut out Ronaldo or get in his head because he fancies playing Real?

I doubt he was that Machiavellian. He was just defending Lovren's fragile confidence after yet another blunder

 

[Cascarino]

Lets not revise history. Even at Hull he was still comfortably one of the best left backs in England. Rather than Klopp improving him, it was a case of Klopp coming to his senses and realizing this kid was miles better than any other left back on his books, and he gave him a regular slot on a platform his talent deserves.

I agree with you, but he was very underrated by the average football fan because he played for Hull. Same with Maguire.

He’s a great fit for Klopp.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Dortmund under Klopp

6th
5th
1st
1st
2nd
2nd
7th

So he took a 'broke' Dortmund team, made them a top team, then 'broke' them back to where they were.

What is it with Pool fans and their delusion about Klopp? What's wrong with just calling him a good manager like he is. Instead you try to cherry pick his career while ignoring all the negatives so you can paint him as one of the best managers in the world.

This viewpoint is brimming with bias. It's blatantly obvious to anyone not influenced by an agenda that Klopp did a brilliant job at Dortmund. He took them from a position of weakness to the pinnacle of German football twice and made them a real threat at the European level top. He eventually ended on a terrible note but while that is a blot on his time there, it doesn't negate the rest of it. Just like I imagine you don't think Jose is merely good because of that one terrible season with Chelsea. It will be held against him and rightfully so but it doesnt define him or destroy his other achievements.

Personally I do think he's a top top manager. But trophies tend to decided these things over the long term. So hopefully he stays clear of the big ones for a good while.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Lets not revise history. Even at Hull he was still comfortably one of the best left backs in England. Rather than Klopp improving him, it was a case of Klopp coming to his senses and realizing this kid was miles better than any other left back on his books, and he gave him a regular slot on a platform his talent deserves.

Plenty of sensible managers miss signings like that. We're weak at LB too but didn't go for him.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Klopp has done well at the clubs he has coached/managed. But comparing him to Jose is not fair to both. Jose is a winner and has proved it with multiple clubs while Klopp has shown his attacking style of play with every team he has managed.

The one thing that Klopp doesn't get which Jose gets in abundance is the relentless media pressure. Let's see how he reacts when he is in the firing line.

He has taken on weaker clubs so it's impossible for him to have won as frequently as Jose.

 

[Raru9]

Klopp is one of the best coaches of the world. Win or not, he make players like Firmino (striker of Hoffenheim), Mané (star of SOTON) and Salah (star in Roma, but with fail past in PL) to make a terrible front line. Salah is making Balon D' Or season and they are 90 mins away of back to a Champions League final, ffs .

Not even the most wild dreams of a Liverpool fan could imagine that. He creates spaces and roles to play in every action in the offensive.

 

[breakout67]

You don't think he's one of the best managers in the world? Not the best, but one of the top 10, maybe even top 5? Of course he hasn't achieved as much as Mourinho, Pep or Ancelotti, but honestly, who would you choose these days, Carletto or Klopp?



Even if that would be true, so what? What he did with Bvb you could compare with taking team like Tottenham to 2 league titles and CL final and then leave them in the middle of the table. That would be quite an achievement, you don't agree?

You are only as good as your competition. I consider Klopp a good second tier manager in the same realm as Jardim and Sarri. These are managers that are long term and have small periods where they 'peak' and build a top team. And before you bring up the excuse of money, Klopp chose to work on a budget, he was an extremely hot prospect when leaving Dortmund but chose to go to a club that doesn't have a high net spend. He doesn't go to a super club because he knows he's can't work in that situation, it's not the type of manager he is.

The top tier managers are the serial winners, those that win trophies as habit, that can deal with high pressure environments, are on a different tactical level. Guardiola, Mourinho, Heynkes, Ancelotti, Aleggri. Zidane also looks to be in that same bracket, as does Simeone.

People seem to forget that Klopp has been in the management game a LONG time. If he had this X-factor that the top tier managers have then he would have already won a bucket load of trophies. Klopp has 3 top level trophies in 16 years of management, with his last trophy 6 years ago. It's not as if he has been lighting it up with Liverpool every season, the state of his Liverpool management is at such a point that people are creaming themselves over being favorites to get into a CL final. He's not actually won a damn thing yet and still might not win anything come the end of the season with Liverpool, and you want me to consider him in the top 5?

This viewpoint is brimming with bias. It's blatantly obvious to anyone not influenced by an agenda that Klopp did a brilliant job at Dortmund. He took them from a position of weakness to the pinnacle of German football twice and made them a real threat at the European level top. He eventually ended on a terrible note but while that is a blot on his time there, it doesn't negate the rest of it. Just like I imagine you don't think Jose is merely good because of that one terrible season with Chelsea. It will be held against him and rightfully so but it doesnt define him or destroy his other achievements.

Personally I do think he's a top top manager. But trophies tend to decided these things over the long term. So hopefully he stays clear of the big ones for a good while.

Read the damn post before accusing people of bias.

Klopp did a good job at Dortmund and he is a good manager.

The Jose example proves who the actual one with bias is. He's got a trophy to years in management ratio over 1! The Chelsea season is an anomaly as evidence by us not being mid table with him as manager.

Klopp does not win trophies as a general rule. This is because his management style is specifically tailored to clubs with low expectations, he implements his philosophy over the long term and so prefers to work where he has. He is basically the good version of Pochettino because he actually wins things on a limited budget whereas Pochettino bottles everything. I think Klopp is a clearly better manager than Pochettino.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

It's embarrassing to act the way you did, filled with rancor and derision, and calling people wums, when you don't seem to anything about the topic you're discussing.

You're welcome, incidently. If you're struggling with something and need help, just hit me up.

Maybe double check before you post.

 

[GiddyUp]

He’s not saying that whoever spends less has had the better season, he’s saying that you have to take context into account.

If Burnley finish 7th it’ll be a massive achievement, whereas if Arsenal finish 6th it’ll have been a poor season. Because we’re taking context into account.


It’s no different to United fans, after Darmiam had played a couple games he was being championed as the best RB in Europe on here. Football fans tend to overrate their own, especially those who don’t watch much football outside of their own team.

Agree about Crystanbul and the Stevie me slip, hilarious times.

Definitely, we have a serious blindspot with players that show absolutely no consistency whatsoever and an obsession with youth.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

You are only as good as your competition. I consider Klopp a good second tier manager in the same realm as Jardim and Sarri. These are managers that are long term and have small periods where they 'peak' and build a top team. And before you bring up the excuse of money, Klopp chose to work on a budget, he was an extremely hot prospect when leaving Dortmund but chose to go to a club that doesn't have a high net spend. He doesn't go to a super club because he knows he's can't work in that situation, it's not the type of manager he is.

The top tier managers are the serial winners, those that win trophies as habit, that can deal with high pressure environments, are on a different tactical level. Guardiola, Mourinho, Heynkes, Ancelotti, Aleggri. Zidane also looks to be in that same bracket, as does Simeone.

People seem to forget that Klopp has been in the management game a LONG time. If he had this X-factor that the top tier managers have then he would have already won a bucket load of trophies. Klopp has 3 top level trophies in 16 years of management, with his last trophy 6 years ago. It's not as if he has been lighting it up with Liverpool every season, the state of his Liverpool management is at such a point that people are creaming themselves over being favorites to get into a CL final. He's not actually won a damn thing yet and still might not win anything come the end of the season with Liverpool, and you want me to consider him in the top 5?



Read the damn post before accusing people of bias.

Klopp did a good job at Dortmund and he is a good manager.

The Jose example proves who the actual one with bias is. He's got a trophy to years in management ratio over 1! The Chelsea season is an anomaly as evidence by us not being mid table with him as manager.

Klopp does not win trophies as a general rule. This is because his management style is specifically tailored to clubs with low expectations, he implements his philosophy over the long term and so prefers to work where he has. He is basically the good version of Pochettino because he actually wins things on a limited budget whereas Pochettino bottles everything. I think Klopp is a clearly better manager than Pochettino.

Feck it, I'm gonna bite - even though your brain seems programmed to ignore common sense.

Do you not think if Klopp opted to manage Bayern, Madrid or City he'd not be winning trophies left right or centre? Or vice versa - if Ancelotti, Zidane or Guardiola went and managed clubs in the state Liverpool/Dortmund were in when he took them over they'd be half as successful?

As for Simeone, he's one of the best but he has won one less league title in a longer stint at Athletico than Klopp at Dortmund.

 

[Sarni]

Feck it, I'm gonna bite - even though your brain seems programmed to ignore common sense.

Do you not think if Klopp opted to manage Bayern, Madrid or City he'd not be winning trophies left right or centre? Or vice versa - if Ancelotti, Zidane or Guardiola went and managed clubs in the state Liverpool/Dortmund were in when he took them over they'd be half as successful?

As for Simeone, he's one of the best but he has won one less league title in a longer stint at Athletico than Klopp at Dortmund.

Simeone has been up against two absolute juggernauts for his entire spell there. Klopp did not win the title back after Bayern got good again, he won it against a struggling Bayern team which finished 3rd in 2011 (Leverkusen were 2nd) and a slightly better version of the same team in 2012.

 

[Random Task]

Feck it, I'm gonna bite - even though your brain seems programmed to ignore common sense.

Do you not think if Klopp opted to manage Bayern, Madrid or City he'd not be winning trophies left right or centre? Or vice versa - if Ancelotti, Zidane or Guardiola went and managed clubs in the state Liverpool/Dortmund were in when he took them over they'd be half as successful?

As for Simeone, he's one of the best but he has won one less league title in a longer stint at Athletico than Klopp at Dortmund.

No, whatever gave you that impression?

 

[ghagua]

Simeone has been up against two absolute juggernauts for his entire spell there. Klopp did not win the title back after Bayern got good again, he won it against a struggling Bayern team which finished 3rd in 2011 (Leverkusen were 2nd) and a slightly better version of the same team in 2012.

Very true, but then again, there is only one team in Germany who are more powerful than either Barca or Real Madrid in their domestic league. We might have to wait another couple of generations to see a different team win the league other than Bayern.

 

[ShadesOfTomato]

Simeone has been up against two absolute juggernauts for his entire spell there. Klopp did not win the title back after Bayern got good again, he won it against a struggling Bayern team which finished 3rd in 2011 (Leverkusen were 2nd) and a slightly better version of the same team in 2012.

I agree - that's what makes him one of the best. But using Breakout's logic, Simeone must be a second tier manager as trophies are the be all and end all.

No, whatever gave you that impression?

I don't know, maybe the fact that more or less every manager that goes to those clubs is guaranteed to win trophies?

 

[AR87]

I don't know, maybe the fact that more or less every manager that goes to those clubs is guaranteed to win trophies?

And that has its own pressures which we don't know if Klopp can handle.

Also Mourinho has won his CL titles at non-super clubs like Porto and Inter so his history demonstrates he can win even without a massive monetary advantage and when he has to be shrewder in the transfer market.

 

[Captain Obvious]

Has this smithers looking dweeb ever accepted defeat graciously?

 

[Velvet Revolver]

He has taken on weaker clubs so it's impossible for him to have won as frequently as Jose.

Well, that is what I alluded as well. Why did he go for weaker clubs? why didn't a bigger club want or take him? Also, Jose was manging Portuguese clubs before he got his move to Chelsea.

 

[Random Task]

I agree - that's what makes him one of the best. But using Breakout's logic, Simeone must be a second tier manager as trophies are the be all and end all.



I don't know, maybe the fact that more or less every manager that goes to those clubs is guaranteed to win trophies?

You're running this idea under the assumption that literally any manager with a modicum of tactical nous is guaranteed success whilst managing any of the aformentioned clubs? Doesn't really say much for Klopp then.

 

[breakout67]

Feck it, I'm gonna bite - even though your brain seems programmed to ignore common sense.

Do you not think if Klopp opted to manage Bayern, Madrid or City he'd not be winning trophies left right or centre? Or vice versa - if Ancelotti, Zidane or Guardiola went and managed clubs in the state Liverpool/Dortmund were in when he took them over they'd be half as successful?

As for Simeone, he's one of the best but he has won one less league title in a longer stint at Athletico than Klopp at Dortmund.

Brilliant common sense there...

Who needs to actually win 2 Champions league trophies when you can work using hypotheticals. In fact, who needs to create one of the best teams in the history of the game or be the first ever manager to win back to back CLs when you can just be Klopp and do it in theory?

Let's just get rid of managers altogether because anyone can be a serial winner if they manager a top team...I wonder why Klopp hasn't done it if it's so easy?

 

[Random Task]

@ShadesOfTomato

Jose Mourinho was manager of Porto (a relative minnow by comparison to other giants of the game at the time) and led them to a CL title and domestic success, after which he went on to become the single most successful football manager in the modern game.

The comparison between Klopp and Jose is an extremely one-sided argument.

 

[el3mel]

Feck it, I'm gonna bite - even though your brain seems programmed to ignore common sense.

Do you not think if Klopp opted to manage Bayern, Madrid or City he'd not be winning trophies left right or centre? Or vice versa - if Ancelotti, Zidane or Guardiola went and managed clubs in the state Liverpool/Dortmund were in when he took them over they'd be half as successful?

As for Simeone, he's one of the best but he has won one less league title in a longer stint at Athletico than Klopp at Dortmund.

With this logic, no manager will ever fail at Madrid or Barca. Turns out lots have failed.