I think it does. To win the league/FA cup requires consistency.
Clubs who are nailed on for top four are generally consistently good. We’re too sporadic.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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I think it does. To win the league/FA cup requires consistency.
Clubs who are nailed on for top four are generally consistently good. We’re too sporadic.
I can't decide if it's a bit unfair or true. It's both I think.
They should be challenging for cups at least, but he also has them playing better football (in attack at least).
They should be challenging for cups at least, but he also has them playing better football (in attack at least).
Hanuman?I've always wondered why Spurs get so much stick for being good, but not winning anything and yet Liverpool seem to always get a free pass in the media.
Hahaha. If you're referring to Hanuman, rest assured, people treat him like a Super-Hero figure, and not at all something that they'd like to kill. In fact, it is believed that that the deity still wanders the earth since there is no record of his demise in the scriptures. (As per my understanding)
Yes, that's the one! It's such a distant memory. But I'm certain our teacher told us something along those lines
Yes, that's the one! It's such a distant memory. But I'm certain our teacher told us something along those lines
I think you may be mixing up Hanuman and Haman in the Jewish tradition:
"In Rabbinical tradition, Haman is considered to be an archetype of evil and persecutor of the Jews."
Thank you, now I can sleep again! Been trying to figure out this for the last hour now. As this is my last post of the day, I won't be derailing this thread any further. Carry on.
This pretty much sums up my thoughts.
One thing's for sure. He needs to hire a better defense coaching team.
Good post. We were literally a 6/7th placed club before Klopp, barring one season. Some seem to completely forget about that.
Hamann is bitter that Klopp didn't give him a coaching role apparently. Throws a lot of random criticism his way.
Good post. I do think we need to win something at some point for him to be considered successful, but Klopp has improved our league performances from where we’d mostly been prior to his arrival.
Nonsense from Hamann. Klopp has them punching well above their weight considering they're 5th in terms of budget and wage bills.
Yeah, Klopp's done a decent job, no doubt.
It's incredibly hard to break into the top four. Even ourselves, who have spent a massive amount of money on some real top stars the last seasons, have just one top four finish to our names since Fergie left.
And look at Arsenal. A star studded team with a lot of quality, falling out of the top four.
Or even Spurs, who've basically played a blinder in terms of recruitment - Pocchettino and a host of young, very, very talented players who's developing rapidly - and even they're not nailed on for a top 4 finish.
Basically, you need an excellent XI and a very good squad as well to compete for top 4, let alone win the league. In terms of cup competitions there's an element of luck involved which you can't count out of the equation, even though Klopp's got a poor record in finals.
Yeah, I dislike Mourinho too.
Banter aside. Yes, obviously Klopp needs to deliver sooner rather than later and his cup exits the last couple of seasons, nevermind the cup final losses, have been immensely disappointing to say the least.
Need i remind you tho, it took Ferguson quite a few years to build up a head of steam. Not saying Klopp gets out of jail free card the first 5 seasons or something, i expect the team to give it their all for the CL and alarms will sound if he does not at least get to a final next season.
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You have six teams going for one spot, so five teams have to miss out.
Good post.
It's baffling the amount of pressure some parts of the media are desperate to heap on Klopp.
He's as criticised as any by Liverpool fans on this board, myself included but the job he's done has been phenomenal especially given the spend he's operated on.
I'm still disappointed with the make up of the squad, the midfield, the substitutions and the amount of faith placed in youngsters which has in previous campaigns left us firmly floundering in mid table. (Mid table)
Look we are as desperate as any to win things and I hate operating under this notion that everything is rosy. The fact is top players want trophies and we need to build a squad capable of challenging otherwise our better players will leave for pastures anew and we'll forever be a side rebuilding. It's imperative we continue to add and build. Not convinced we'll do enough in the summer though.
This is all well and good, but I thought Klopp was supposed to be the one to finally deliver success?
Since your last title in 89/90, your league positions have looked like this:
Your points per game compared to the champion of each respective season looks like this:
Regardless of who your manager has been, there's been a cycle of bouncing between upper-mid-table and 3rd or 4th for half a dozen or so years, before mounting a one off title challenge and immediately plunging back down to upper-mid-table for half a dozen or so years when it happens again.
Klopp was brought in when he was because there were fears that the momentum from 2013/14 had well and truly gone (which it had) and that you were on course to miss out on the Champions League again (which you were). After bringing Klopp on board you ended up finishing in your lowest position since Dalglish was in charge in 11/12.
You talk about how his first season was great because he reached two cup finals (which you lost, and currently stand to be the only two cup finals you'll have reached in his three seasons in charge short of a miracle in the Champions League) yet ignore that the squad he had was pretty much entirely that of Rodgers and his predecessors. The excuse for the poor league finish was (aside from the apparent league finals distraction) that Klopp was yet to assemble his own squad.
Here you are 11+ signings later, having been knocked out of the FA Cup 4th round by lesser opposition for the third year running (and the second at home), not in a title race, and knocked out of the League Cup in its early stages, with top 4 still very much in the balance.
I understand the desire to establish yourselves as a Champions League club again, but as Arsenal have shown over the last decade, finishing 3rd or 4th then being knocked out as soon as you face remotely elite opposition does absolutely nothing for either the club or the fanbase, other than feed a growing resentment towards the manager.
The current climate in the Premier League seems to indicate that top 4 isn't really something you can bank on until very late in the season, unless you're properly involved in a title race. Saying that you'd rather wait until you're an established top 4 club until you concentrate on winning things just strikes me as a very odd excuse for Klopp's poor performances in the cups. It's been almost impossible to predict the top 4 for the last few seasons, and that trend looks set to continue for a few years more yet.
When pundits, or even opposition fans say that Liverpool under Klopp should be aiming higher than winning the not-so-coveted top 4 trophy, they aren't doing so because they've mistaken Liverpool for a team that regularly wins things, but because otherwise they're stuck in the same rut that they've been in for what is now coming up to three decades, except the difference now is that you aren't even winning trophies of any kind. Despite two finals in his first season, if you fail to win the Champions League season, Klopp will have been a large part of Liverpool's longest run without a trophy since the gap between 1966 and 1973. The pressure to win something is absolutely on.
The biggest criticism of Klopp's management so far has been his ability to organise and motivate the team against lesser opposition, which has been a sort of ongoing excuse for not quite making that push in the league. However, it's no secret that cup competitions, particularly domestic ones, require you to play at least a couple of teams that would match that description.
The fact that he reached two finals in his first season, reached one semi-final season in his second, and is now relying on getting past first Porto, then three of what is likely to be a draw of City, United, Bayern, and any combination of Barca/Chelsea, Real/PSG, Spurs/Juve and Roma/Shakhtar to have any hope of silverware this season, would indicate something of a downward trend in cup performances, while still looking way off winning the league.
The whole purpose of sacking Rodgers and hiring Klopp was to elevate yourselves from being a "midtable club looking to break into the top 4" (that had won just one trophy in 10 years), to being a top club that won things. If it isn't already, the clock will be start ticking soon unless he can offer more than annual cup disappointments and a fight for top 4.
Yeah, a whole 2 points above 5th!
I don't think he's in much trouble - the overall perception is that he's moving things forward, is a massive character (
) & provides entertaining footy. Criticism for the daft losses seems a bit hysterical at times, I expect them to finish in the Top 4.
Some of the criticism re GK & defence would be justified, obviously. VVD is in & he's looking for a GK now, it is alleged / rumoured.
Was a good post from @DreamIsh
peaks / troughs very apparent on @Alex99 's graph. innit?
) & provides entertaining footy. Criticism for the daft losses seems a bit hysterical at times, I expect them to finish in the Top 4.Some of the criticism re GK & defence would be justified, obviously. VVD is in & he's looking for a GK now, it is alleged / rumoured.
Was a good post from @DreamIsh
peaks / troughs very apparent on @Alex99 's graph. innit?
Well above their weight, mate.
The spending thing is a line of argument I never understand. People make out like the league is won by the biggest spenders with the highest wage bill, year in, year out and wasn't won by a relative minnow just two seasons ago.
The same people who jump on transfer fees and reported wages as being extortionate and far too much for the players they apply to will hide behind transfer spending and wage bills as a reason for their club not winning and challenging for trophies. Either what a club spends on its playing staff (fees and wages) is a wholly accurate representation of the ability those players possess and subsequently the expectations that can be placed on that club, or they aren't, and therefore can't be used as a barometer for success.
Obviously there's a general trend of the clubs that spend more doing better, but it's not as rigid as "you spent the most, you win the league" because if it was we may as well hand the title to a team at the end of August every year and not bother with the year of football that follows the summer transfer window. Maybe give the FA Cup to whoever spends the most in January, and the League Cup to Arsenal for all the money Wenger nearly spent on players.
Think he’s done a pretty good job by almost every metric. Needs to sort a keeper out that isn’t a total calamity in the summer. That should be his immediate focus
To be fair to scousers and Klopp you never saw us pushing an agenda for Roy’s or Brendan’s sacking as we knew they wouldn’t be a constant threat with them in charge apart from that freak season, almost Leicester like. However, I personally want Klopp out and probably many others as we feel he evolved them and they don’t look like going away. That’s I guess testament to his good work in scousland, even if he’s serial loser when it comes to cups.
You pushed one of the hardest agendas possible for Rodgers, he was treated like Fergie reincarnated.
The forum was absolutely rife with hugely over the top praise for Rodgers and people were incredibly jealous of the football Liverpool were playing under him.
I'm more than happy for them to keep Klopp, because all I see is the same cycle of messiah-like praise for a manager that doesn't deliver. There are glaring flaws with the way he sets his teams out and the quality in his squad, and he seems either unwilling or unable to address them.
Liverpool is the most exciting team to watch, unfortunately. And who can come in now and make Liverpool a better team anyways? Think Liverpool did right by extending. Hamann is taking the piss here
Fair enough, mate. You seem to be convinced he’s a flash in the pan, hope to feck your prophecy is accurate!
Quoting Hamann really is the end to nowhere..cluesless troll
Hanuman isn’t evil in our culture. Quite the opposite in fact he is considered as the destroyer of all demons and evil spirits.Yes, that's the one! It's such a distant memory. But I'm certain our teacher told us something along those lines
I think he's a good manager, but a tier below the top managers. He did very well to do what he did at Dortmund, but there were a number of circumstances that he benefited from that he will never be afforded at Liverpool, but people are still pretending and/or hoping he'll emulate the (brief) success he enjoyed in Germany.
I don't think there's much prophetic about predicting that a man who's not won anything for 6 years not winning anything at a club that's not won anything for 6 years.
Exciting football or not, they've won nothing since they won the Carabao Cup in 2012. During that time we've won 2 premier league titles, A FA Cup, the Carabao Cup and the Europa league.
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If I was a Liverpool fan, I'd certainly prefer progress and regular CL spot coupled with attractive football without winning anything over the next 3-4 years over something like an FA cup or a Europa League trophy and constantly sitting at 6-7th for example. Luck plays a much bigger role in cup competitions for starters. They are already able to beat bigger teams, their problem lies in consistency and the league table is a much better indicator for progress than a cup.
I also never understood why a club like United could care much about a second tier competition like the Europa League. Mourinho himself said once that he wouldn't want his players to win it because he doesn't want to see his players feeling that this was their level back when he was at Chelsea and I agreed with him back then. United is one of the richest clubs in the world and with your resources the only two competitions that should matter are the league and champions league. Clubs like Liverpool or Spurs or lower, yeah, maybe, but not United.
We cared because it got us a CL spot
The praise for Rodgers came at a time when you had Moyes. If you’d had Ferguson in charge none of you would’ve cared what we were doing under BR.
We’re a better team now than we were when Rodgers was sacked, but I agree that there are serious flaws in the way Klopp sets his team out over the course of a season, that may hold us back.
I'm not arguing against it, but this is comparable to securing a top 4 spot as an achievement for me. I mean sure, it's a success, but I'm not sure if I'd view it as bigger than a top 4 finish, for example.
You won't get very far on RAWK posting like that.
Welcome to RedCafe.
He's either an arse licker or a merchant.
Firstly, not winning anything for 3-4 years and finishing in a CL spot was what Liverpool fans were touting for Klopp on his arrival, 3 years ago.
Secondly, why should a team choose between finishing 6th and winning a trophy, and finishing 3rd and not winning anything?
Liverpool were better against the bigger sides last season than they have been this season. Their problems since Rodgers have been that they are too prone to slipping up against lesser opposition, in large part due to how they organise themselves defensively, which is a problem that Klopp has shown absolutely no signs of fixing, other than hoping that Virgil van Dijk is somehow a one man solution.
United cared about the Europa League last season a) because they were not in the Champions League, b) because they'd never won it before and c) because winning it was a guaranteed path to the CL group stages whether they finished 5th or 20th. Mourinho's comments regarding the Europa League were made before UEFA made it a qualification route into the CL. I would much rather finish 5th and win the Europa League than finish 2nd-4th and win nothing because the end result is the same - CL qualification - except you get the bonus of winning a trophy with the former. However, finishing 4th and winning it is obviously preferable.
The only competitions that really matter are the league and CL, which is why so many United fans have been very disappointed this season, and lost a little bit of the context of what's going on with City (a freak, record-breaking season). However, many have also recognised that post Fergie, and particularly post Moyes and van Gaal, the team was in need of rejuvenation, and that would take some time. Winning two trophies and securing CL qualification was a very good start to that process, and I'm hoping we can build on that this season by finishing at least 2nd in the league, and doing ourselves proud in the FA Cup and CL.
Liverpool are better than they were under Rodgers, but I still feel that there's a very obvious ceiling to what Klopp can do for you, and that ceiling has very nearly been reached if not already, and that falls noticeably short of what you're expecting from him, and what you hired him for. Short of another flash in the pan season (which you'd undoubtedly and very understandably love) I just can't see how Klopp and his managerial style are going to get you any higher than being perennial top 4 battlers.
If we had Ferguson in charge there'd never have been any real fawning over Klopp, never mind Rodgers. However, that's beside the point. The fact remains that a large number of United fans were falling over themselves about Rodgers in 13/14 in a similar manner to how a fair few pop up with comments about how they fear what Klopp could turn Liverpool into nowadays. Klopp just has the benefit of actually winning something in his career to get him by, no matter how long ago that was.
Really? I have to say I am not that well informed about the circumstances but as far as I know they had Rodgers fired because he missed a CL spot the season after their title run and having a bad streak at the beginning of the next season. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been fired had he reached CL qualification the season before that despite Klopp being available.
Secondly, I just think that due to the nature of the Europa League generally only having 2nd tier and lower tier clubs participating, as well as cup competitions being heavily dependent on draw and form, it is less of an indicator of strength and progress than a strong league finish, especially in one as competitive as the PL (apart from City this season). Of course the emotional factor when winning a cup is bigger than a trophyless top 4 finish for a fan, but purely from an objective point of view, it doesn't matter much. Arsenal won 3 out of the last 4 FA cups which from my view have better teams than your average Europa Cup knockouts but they still got worse and worse during those times...
I think Mourinho is doing a good job at United, but still you finished worse in the league last season than Liverpool (Mou gave up the league after there was very little chance left to actually getting to top 4 and Europa Cup being the only realistic option to qualify for the CL), and this season you are a mere 3 points ahead of them with the FA cup being the only half realistic (minor) competition where you have a chance of winning. I think Mourinho had to rebuild a side in a much worse state than Pep for example, but I for myself cannot fathom how anyone can say that United made any more progress in this and last season especially while also considering the vast financial and prestige gap between the two clubs. Of course the chance of Klopp winning the league is less than Mourinho winning it, but in this league only City can financially compete with United and the gap between them and you is enormous currently, certainly much bigger than that between United and financially much more limited clubs such as Liverpool or Spurs.
Secondly, I just think that due to the nature of the Europa League generally only having 2nd tier and lower tier clubs participating, as well as cup competitions being heavily dependent on draw and form, it is less of an indicator of strength and progress than a strong league finish, especially in one as competitive as the PL (apart from City this season). Of course the emotional factor when winning a cup is bigger than a trophyless top 4 finish for a fan, but purely from an objective point of view, it doesn't matter much. Arsenal won 3 out of the last 4 FA cups which from my view have better teams than your average Europa Cup knockouts but they still got worse and worse during those times...
I think Mourinho is doing a good job at United, but still you finished worse in the league last season than Liverpool (Mou gave up the league after there was very little chance left to actually getting to top 4 and Europa Cup being the only realistic option to qualify for the CL), and this season you are a mere 3 points ahead of them with the FA cup being the only half realistic (minor) competition where you have a chance of winning. I think Mourinho had to rebuild a side in a much worse state than Pep for example, but I for myself cannot fathom how anyone can say that United made any more progress in this and last season especially while also considering the vast financial and prestige gap between the two clubs. Of course the chance of Klopp winning the league is less than Mourinho winning it, but in this league only City can financially compete with United and the gap between them and you is enormous currently, certainly much bigger than that between United and financially much more limited clubs such as Liverpool or Spurs.
Yes, sorry about that. As I said, it was a distant memory. So I mixed up hinduism and judaism, and Hanuman for Haman. You see, Haman was a infamous caracter in The Hebrew Bible. All I remembered was a resemblance from Hamanns name, as he was playing for Liverpool at the time we learned about it.
It's Hanuman. An Indian God