Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch

Rafateria said:
Some stats re. Keita and how he is so far ahead of our current midfield. Wasn't he player of the year in Germany last season ? I forget. Some people here have said he's not been as good as last season, and has had some disciplinary issues which have reduced his playing time, well that's their opinion and one has to wonder how much they've actually seen of him because he's stil high amongst the top players in the BL and he's still been mightily impressive.

Naby-Keita-stats.jpg
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:lol:

Does that include all those in Germany noting his disciplinary record too?
 
on a Man Utd forum, why is this fella and his useless team getting so much airplay? 399 pages and counting....
 
Solver said:
on a Man Utd forum, why is this fella and his useless team getting so much airplay? 399 pages and counting....
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Because this is the FOOTBALL forum section of a United site. Don't worry, you're new, many newbies are confused at first that there are rival supporters from many clubs actually discussing clubs other than United.
 
I question I wanted to ask Liverpool fans on the forum. If Liverpool don't come in the top four but between 5-6, would you guys either:

1 - Advocate his sacking

OR

2 - Not advocate his sacking but would not disagree if he were sacked

OR

3 - Not agree with his sacking

If I were a Liverpool fan, I personally would be against him being sacked. The competition in the league has increased greatly with the emergence of Spurs in the last 2-3 seasons as serious title contenders, along with that Liverpool don't have the financial power to compete with United and City in terms of being able to build a team from scratch; so I would believe Klopp would need more time to build a squad he prefers than managers from those other teams. And there is a lot of building still left to do, so you can not expect him to solve it all in a couple of seasons.

Also, given the competition, teams in the top 4 will fluctuate every season. This isn't the time back in the mid to late 00's when the notion of the 'Big 4' came into being with United, Chelsea, Pool and Arsenal making up the top 4 for 5 consecutive seasons and therefore the idea of either of the clubs dropping from the top 4 would be deemed a disaster. Whichever team that does drop out of the top 4 can still reasonably expect themselves to be back in contention the next season, therefore I wouldn't see the need to sack a manager.

Ofcourse there is bias in my opinion since I absolutely loved the rivalry between Dortmund and Bayern, which was brought about because of Klopp's achievements at Dortmund. The rivalry, and Dortmund's achievements in Europe, helped increase the Bundesliga's appeal from the dark days of the mid 00's.
 
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hasanejaz88 said:
I question I wanted to ask Liverpool fans on the forum. If Liverpool don't come in the top four but between 5-6, would you guys either:

1 - Advocate his sacking

OR

2 - Not advocate his sacking but would not disagree if he were sacked

OR

3 - Not agree with his sacking

If I were a Liverpool fan, I personally would be against him being sacked. The competition in the league has increased greatly with the emergence of Spurs in the last 2-3 seasons as serious title contenders, along with that Liverpool don't have the financial power to compete with United and City in terms of being able to build a team from scratch; so I would believe Klopp would need more time to build a squad he prefers than managers from those other teams. And there is a lot of building still left to do, so you can not expect him to solve it all in a couple of seasons.

Also, given the competition, teams in the top 4 will fluctuate every season. This isn't the time back in the mid to late 00's when the notion of the 'Big 4' came into being with United, Chelsea, Pool and Arsenal making up the top 4 for 5 consecutive seasons and therefore the idea of either of the clubs dropping from the top 4 would be deemed a disaster. Whichever team that does drop out of the top 4 can still reasonably expect themselves to be back in contention the next season, therefore I wouldn't see the need to sack a manager.

Ofcourse there is bias in my opinion since I absolutely loved the rivalry between Dortmund and Bayern, which was brought about because of Klopp's achievements at Dortmund. The rivalry, and Dortmund's achievements in Europe, helped increase the Bundesliga's appeal from the dark days of the mid 00's.
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#3.

Good and obvious progress is being made in a very competitive league. He's only human so has made, and will continue to make, mistakes, but on balance he's great for the club. I hope he's here for the long haul.
 
Rafateria said:
Point made flies well over head. Well done.
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You're claiming people who say he's not been as good this season must not have watched him play and posted a squawka comparison with liverpool's midfielders to prove the point. It's not him, you made a stupid point, or articulated it in a stupid way
 
Rafateria said:
Because this is the FOOTBALL forum section of a United site. Don't worry, you're new, many newbies are confused at first that there are rival supporters from many clubs actually discussing clubs other than United.
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ok thanks mate but I have been new for over a year now lol
 
Rafateria said:
#3.

Good and obvious progress is being made in a very competitive league. He's only human so has made, and will continue to make, mistakes, but on balance he's great for the club. I hope he's here for the long haul.
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I have watched a few liverpool games lately to see what the fuss is all about. OK, you played United off the park at Anfield and were it not for de Gea and your blunt strikeforce you may have won handsomely but against Everton and West Brom I was like errrr... what's this all about lol. To be fair, the guy has exciting results but very disappoiting ones too often. I hope he stays so you lot win nothing, continue to win nothing hahaha
 
Schmiznurf said:
Plus it gives us a chance to laugh at our rivals and their coked up managers, plus their delusional fans.
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that I could never disagree with mate- I just typed pretty much the same as you were posting lol
 
giorno said:
You're claiming people who say he's not been as good this season must not have watched him play and posted a squawka comparison with liverpool's midfielders to prove the point. It's not him, you made a stupid point, or articulated it in a stupid way
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On the contrary, some people are saying he's not as good as claimed without giving any basis for their claims, and likely have never seen him play at all. I can give just my opinion but that is like everyone else, just another arsehole without some basis ... so I posted some stats comparing him to our current crop of midfielders so show just how much he excels (and would improve us) in areas in which they are weak, and then I mentioned that he is very high in the individual ratings in the BL. So not at all a stupid point or articulation, though obviously it seems not everyone has the required nouse to grasp a point if it's not totally linear.
 
Dumbstar said:
Losing best players is standard for us now, trophy or no trophy. Key is to replace as best as possible. How can we be depressed with the way we play? The fab four? Not forgetting the missing 5th Beatle, Lallana?
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I get the no trophies part but what trophies you talking about?
 
Rafateria said:
Some stats re. Keita and how he is so far ahead of our current midfield. Wasn't he player of the year in Germany last season ? I forget. Some people here have said he's not been as good as last season, and has had some disciplinary issues which have reduced his playing time, well that's their opinion and one has to wonder how much they've actually seen of him because he's stil high amongst the top players in the BL and he's still been mightily impressive.

Naby-Keita-stats.jpg
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Absolutely pointless comparing players playing in two different leagues. I mean, Mkhitaryan looked like he was going to be amazing for us going by his Bundesliga stats, the reality has been very different. I've only seen Keita a handful of times and I can't say I've been impressed but he must be doing something right.
 
Robbie Boy said:
Absolutely pointless comparing players playing in two different leagues. I mean, Mkhitaryan looked like he was going to be amazing for us going by his Bundesliga stats, the reality has been very different. I've only seen Keita a handful of times and I can't say I've been impressed but he must be doing something right.
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That's your opinion. However stats such as these are used by all clubs to help evaluate the likelihood of a player transferring his performances to a new league. IMO the BL's style is similar enough to the PL (very much more so than La Liga or Series A etc.), in fact the most similar, to give value to those stats.
 
Is it all as simple as Liverpool just need a couple of new defensive signings? Except for Keita and Liverpool being a club with aura, why would the defensive top-signings go to Liverpool?

I mean, can you actually get the very top defenders to go there? Wouldn't they prefer Real, Barca, Bayern, United, City, Chelsea, PSG and a bigger pay-check first? Take an unsettled Alex Sandro for example.

If we say that is the 6 clubs over Liverpool in terms of competing for the very top, it seems to me that Liverpool will be more challenging for players with a level of what they currently have.

They'd need to be lucky with a player like Davinson Sanchez or Bailly. But for each of those signings there is a Chiriches, Fazio, Fryers.

With injuries and Moreno being shit, I reckon they need at least two GREAT defenders + a world class goalie. It would be an incredible strike of luck if all those 3 simply just clicked instantly. You need truly good defenders to make up for the big spaces Klopp's playing style leaves behind. This is also why Mourinho make's Jones / Smalling look good. There's more control in the compact spaces.
 
Rafateria said:
That's your opinion. However stats such as these are used by all clubs to help evaluate the likelihood of a player transferring his performances to a new league. IMO the BL's style is similar enough to the PL (very much more so than La Liga or Series A etc.), in fact the most similar, to give value to those stats.
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Well I just gave you one example, Kagawa is another who completely failed to bring his Bundesliga form into the PL. It's hardly an exact science but I certainly have serious reservations about how good Keita actually is but we won't know until he's playing in the PL.
 
It's Villas-Boas playing Santa.
 
ROFLUTION said:
Is it all as simple as Liverpool just need a couple of new defensive signings? Except for Keita and Liverpool being a club with aura, why would the defensive top-signings go to Liverpool?

I mean, can you actually get the very top defenders to go there? Wouldn't they prefer Real, Barca, Bayern, United, City, Chelsea, PSG and a bigger pay-check first? Take an unsettled Alex Sandro for example.

If we say that is the 6 clubs over Liverpool in terms of competing for the very top, it seems to me that Liverpool will be more challenging for players with a level of what they currently have.

They'd need to be lucky with a player like Davinson Sanchez or Bailly. But for each of those signings there is a Chiriches, Fazio, Fryers.

With injuries and Moreno being shit, I reckon they need at least two GREAT defenders + a world class goalie. It would be an incredible strike of luck if all those 3 simply just clicked instantly. You need truly good defenders to make up for the big spaces Klopp's playing style leaves behind. This is also why Mourinho make's Jones / Smalling look good. There's more control in the compact spaces.
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That all seems a bit extreme, or more than a bit TBH.

Yes it's likely that any very top defender would choose one of those clubs over us, however it's not always that clear cut (unless or until they are established at one of those clubs) so we were able to sign players of the quality of Coutinho, Suarez, Mane and Salah (to name just a few of the most recent) so signing top (or highly rated) defenders isn't out of the question, VVD for example, whether it happens or not.
And there's also no argument to be made that Liverpool don't pay high wages so that really shouldn't be a major factor unless we are in competition for their signature with one of the clubs you named.

There aren't many WC goalies around, of those clubs you mentioned there are maybe only 2-3, so whilst I'd love a keeper of say De Gea's standard (which club wouldn't) it's not going to happen and the vast majority of top clubs get by with good to very good keepers. Strengthening of our weak midfield will greatly improve the defence too, maybe to the extent that a VVD or equivalent may be all that is required to raise their standard to that of our competition. I must admit that criticism of them is often extreme and OTT, though they are all liable to individual brain-farts, but name me one player who doesn't make mistakes, it's the frequency that matters and a stronger midfield will lower that frequency. To wit, note that at Anfield we have only conceded 3 goals (equal best in the PL) and it's strangely the attack not putting away their chances there that has been our bane. In both cases the exact opposite of our away form. We've still only lost 2 games in the PL (second best to City) ... so in effect it's actually the forwards letting us down ;)
 
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Rafateria said:
On the contrary, some people are saying he's not as good as claimed without giving any basis for their claims, and likely have never seen him play at all. I can give just my opinion but that is like everyone else, just another arsehole without some basis ... so I posted some stats comparing him to our current crop of midfielders so show just how much he excels (and would improve us) in areas in which they are weak, and then I mentioned that he is very high in the individual ratings in the BL. So not at all a stupid point or articulation, though obviously it seems not everyone has the required nouse to grasp a point if it's not totally linear.
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People who have watched(mostly germans) claiming he's not been as good this season as last, haven't seen anyone claim he's not been good

As for the stats comparison with your midfielders, that's kind of pointless, Leipzig are a different team from liverpool and Keita does a different job for them than what Henderson/Gini/Can/Milner have been doing for you

He's a very talented player, he's coming off a great season and has been pretty good so far in this one, but beyond that, he's still very much a gamble for you. He hasn't dominated a top league the way De Bruyne or Pogba have done yet
 
Rafateria said:
That all seems a bit extreme, or more than a bit TBH.

Yes it's likely that any very top defender would choose one of those clubs over us, however it's not always that clear cut (unless or until they are established at one of those clubs) so we were able to sign players of the quality of Coutinho, Suarez, Mane and Salah (to name just a few of the most recent) so signing top (or highly rated) defenders isn't out of the question, VVD for example, whether it happens or not.
And there's also no argument to be made that Liverpool don't pay high wages so that really shouldn't be a major factor unless we are in competition for their signature with one of the clubs you named.

There aren't many WC goalies around, of those clubs you mentioned there are maybe only 2-3, so whilst I'd love a keeper of say De Gea's standard (which club wouldn't) it's not going to happen and the vast majority of top clubs get by with good to very good keepers. Strengthening of our weak midfield will greatly improve the defence too, maybe to the extent that a VVD or equivalent may be all that is required to raise their standard to that of our competition. I must admit that criticism of them is often extreme and OTT), though they are all liable to individual brain-farts but name me one player who isn't, it's frequency that matters and a stronger midfield will lower that frequency. To wit note that at Anfield we have only conceded 3 goals (equal best in the PL) and it's strangely the attack not putting away their chances that has been our bane. In both cases the exact opposite of our away form.
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Commenting on the two highlighted bits:

1) While I get your point and agree that you've managed to attract now big players in Mane, Salah, Suarez and Coutinho they have probably all been attracted to the attacking playstyle. It's really been a long time since a big promising defender has chosen Liverpool - As well as there is a trend with Mane, Salah, Suarez, Coutinho, etc, this also seems to be a trend. I can't recall Liverpool getting any BIG talents in the defence over the last decade. Maybe Clyne, but again because not many other top clubs moved.

2) And you probably will be competing with the clubs mentioned:
Left back: United, Real Madrid and Chelsea would probably move for a top-talent like Alex Sandro or similar
Central defence: Pep wants a central defender, Conte's a sucker for central defenders. Bayern and Barca too.

We may disagree here, but I don't believe Virgil Van Dijk is that much of a player compared to what you have. All I'm saying is that you need defenders of Alderweireld / Vertonghen standards at least to make up for your offensive matters.

Keita will be a good signing though - A bit like Matic shielding the defence, which has been worth so much.
 
Why are Liverpool midfielders the standard bearers for performance?
You think he's under performing? Feeeeck you, he's having a better season than both Henderson and Milner.
Feel stupid now?
 
ROFLUTION said:
Commenting on the two highlighted bits:

1) While I get your point and agree that you've managed to attract now big players in Mane, Salah, Suarez and Coutinho they have probably all been attracted to the attacking playstyle. It's really been a long time since a big promising defender has chosen Liverpool - As well as there is a trend with Mane, Salah, Suarez, Coutinho, etc, this also seems to be a trend. I can't recall Liverpool getting any BIG talents in the defence over the last decade. Maybe Clyne, but again because not many other top clubs moved.

2) And you probably will be competing with the clubs mentioned:
Left back: United, Real Madrid and Chelsea would probably move for a top-talent like Alex Sandro or similar
Central defence: Pep wants a central defender, Conte's a sucker for central defenders. Bayern and Barca too.

We may disagree here, but I don't believe Virgil Van Dijk is that much of a player compared to what you have. All I'm saying is that you need defenders of Alderweireld / Vertonghen standards at least to make up for your offensive matters.

Keita will be a good signing though - A bit like Matic shielding the defence, which has been worth so much.
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I doubt we are in the market for a LB .. or RB. CBs, CMs and a Striker is probably where our immediate future transfer activity will be focused. Our attack is exciting enough that any forward would likely consider us, with Keita arriving midfielders may view that as a major upgrade (in both our midfield and the team) and again make us more attractive a proposition. In defence it's true we haven't attracted top talent (though that also depends on whether we've gone for top defenders - I've not seen any rumours to suggest, and certainly no substantiation of those rumours, that we have), but whether you rate him or not the professional football world seems to view VVD as a top defender and he was very willing to commit to us over other PL teams including City .. that may well have changed now of course.
 
Rafateria said:
I doubt we are in the market for a LB .. or RB. CBs, CMs and a Striker is probably where our immediate future transfer activity will be focused. Our attack is exciting enough that any forward would likely consider us, with Keita arriving midfielders may view that as a major upgrade (in both our midfield and the team) and again make us more attractive a proposition. In defence it's true we haven't attracted top talent (though that also depends on whether we've gone for top defenders - I've not seen any rumours to suggest, and certainly no substantiation of those rumours, that we have), but whether you rate him or not the professional football world seems to view VVD as a top defender and he was very willing to commit to us over other PL teams including City .. that may well have changed now of course.
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Watch Pep cut a deal with Soton for Van Dijk in front of your noses :D No, but has the Van Dijk situation loosened up? Are Soton willing to sell VVD to you now?

By the way, your attack is close to perfect and players will only get better - That's not where your money is well spent in my opinion.
 
Reading Melissa Reddy's article and it seems certain Emre has been given football and financial assurances over his role in Turin. It's a cracking move for the lad, holding role next to Pjanic in that league and with his qualities will suit him down to the ground,especially with the style of play Juve employ.
Lucas has been incredible for Lazio.
Likewise Suso has gone a long way towards fulfilling his potential. Luis Alberto doesn't appear to be doing too badly either and Iago Aspas has forged out a very good career back in Spain.

These players all have weaknesses that hampered them playing in our style and system but there's alternatively an argument to be made we aren't getting the best out of players unless they're already pretty damn good. Anyways good to see these lads doing well.
 
@Rafateria Not buying this idea that Mane, Coutinho, Firmino, Salah, or even Suarez can be counted as big signings. They've turned out great for you, but they certainly weren't considered big signings when you actually signed them. For most, if not all, Liverpool was either a step up or at least a step sideways, and this was when you were finishing 8th for some of them. At the time, you weren't fighting off the likes of Real, Barca, PSG, Bayern, United, City or Chelsea for their signatures because none of them were interested enough.

Coutinho signed off the back of a loan to Espanyol because he couldn't establish himself at Inter. Firmino had essentially outgrown Hoffenheim, who had finished 8th in Bundesliga the season before you signed him. At the time you signed him, Mane was pretty much taking a step sideways, taking what I assume was a higher wage and the chance to work with Klopp. Suarez had outgrown the Dutch league, and was actually suspended for biting when you signed him. Salah had impressed at Roma, and is possibly the closest to a big signing of all of them, but even then, it was something of a step sideways, and you broke your transfer record to bring him in. I also don't remember there being any real competition to sign him.

The aforementioned players might have come good at Liverpool, but you've also got a list including Carroll, Downing, Borini, Aspas, Alberto, Markovic, Balotelli, Origi, Lambert, Benteke and Ings that were signed over the same time period, that cost as much (or more) than the ones that did come good, and they were almost, to a man, utter duds. Only two on that list are still at the club, and I can't see Ings lasting much longer, and last I heard Origi was hardly pulling up any trees at Wolfsburg.

In recent years you've also very publicly missed out on signing Alexis Sanchez and Thomas Lemar, from Barcelona and Monaco respectively.

There's obviously an element of not being able to pay the transfer fees that big signings command (whether that's down to FSG refusing to stump up for just one player or simply not having the funds), but I certainly think it's disingenuous to be claiming that Liverpool have successfully attracted any big signings to Anfield over the last few years, and probably not since Mascherano or Torres signed nearly ten years ago.
 
Rafateria said:
We don't need anywhere near that many players to compete for trophies (I'm not sure anyone can get near City's strength in depth and so over a season injuries to City players could be key, we've seen how key injuries can make any team fall off the pace). Certainly no team has stars in every position, even City have weaknesses. So I'd reduce that to, in addition to Keita and at a minimum, 1 CB, 1 CM, 1 ST, ideally though ; 1-2 CB (Lovren, Klavan and Gomez are good enough backups) + 2 CM (one replacement for Coutinho) and 1 ST (to replace Sturridge).

I don't see an issue at FB at all (though I'd like Moreno replaced his form this season has demonstrated it's not a top priority), Robertson, AA, Gomez, Milner and Clyne are all good FBs
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:drool:
 
Liver_bird said:
Reading Melissa Reddy's article and it seems certain Emre has been given football and financial assurances over his role in Turin. It's a cracking move for the lad, holding role next to Pjanic in that league and with his qualities will suit him down to the ground,especially with the style of play Juve employ.
Lucas has been incredible for Lazio.
Likewise Suso has gone a long way towards fulfilling his potential. Luis Alberto doesn't appear to be doing too badly either and Iago Aspas has forged out a very good career back in Spain.

These players all have weaknesses that hampered them playing in our style and system but there's alternatively an argument to be made we aren't getting the best out of players unless they're already pretty damn good. Anyways good to see these lads doing well.
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Aside from Lucas, who's an experienced player doing well on a very good team were everyone is doing well, the others were young(ish) when they left you and took a while before coming good. Suso had a loan spell at Genoa before establishing himself at Milan, most people didn't even know Luis Alberto was at lazio last season, Aspas went to Sevilla and was poor for them too before going back home and turning into a machine

Just a matter of not having patience/the benefit of waiting for them to come good(except Aspas. Aspas can't leave Vigo)

Kinda like how you got Coutinho from Inter
 
giorno said:
Aside from Lucas, who's an experienced player doing well on a very good team were everyone is doing well, the others were young(ish) when they left you and took a while before coming good. Suso had a loan spell at Genoa before establishing himself at Milan, most people didn't even know Luis Alberto was at lazio last season, Aspas went to Sevilla and was poor for them too before going back home and turning into a machine

Just a matter of not having patience/the benefit of waiting for them to come good(except Aspas. Aspas can't leave Vigo)

Kinda like how you got Coutinho from Inter
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Yeah just a constant mis match of visions that have conflicted under FSGs entire tenure. Anyways we need a couple centre mids next season.
 
Solver said:
on a Man Utd forum, why is this fella and his useless team getting so much airplay? 399 pages and counting....
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Because Manchester United fans say they would rather have him at OT than Jose Mourinho because he plays eye catching football.
 
I think it's natural for Liverpool supporters to be excited about Keita. He is addressing an area of weakness in the squad and had a great season last year.

It is also natural to question whether he will adapt to England. Many notable players from the German league have failed to do so. But Klopp, knowing the German league intimately, seems well-poised to identify which players are likelier to succeed in England and subsequently facilitate that transition.
 
Fridge chutney said:
I think it's natural for Liverpool supporters to be excited about Keita. He is addressing an area of weakness in the squad and had a great season last year.

It is also natural to question whether he will adapt to England. Many notable players from the German league have failed to do so. But Klopp, knowing the German league intimately, seems well-poised to identify which players are likelier to succeed in England and subsequently facilitate that transition.
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I would be excited if Keita signed for us. I still can't fathom why he went to Liverpool, he could have done better.
 
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