No way José feels that pressure to be attacking. He often talks about taking emotion out of the game, sometimes that means controlling us in the stands too. If we're urging them forward at every opportunity then it leads to space for them to play into. We'll play it tight and target them on set pieces etc.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
- Thread starter Samid
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No way José feels that pressure to be attacking. He often talks about taking emotion out of the game, sometimes that means controlling us in the stands too. If we're urging them forward at every opportunity then it leads to space for them to play into. We'll play it tight and target them on set pieces etc.
This shows how little you understand the gegenpress ... and it hasn't eased up at all. It was as obvious today as ever, not sure what game you watched.I've noticed that as well. Tiredness has got to come into it I think, Liverpool as a team were covering the most ground at the beginning of the season if I remember correctly - would be interesting to see a comparison between the first 10 and second 10 games of the season once we pass the 20 games mark.
The gegenpress is not sustainable as a system throughout a whole season. Just imagine if they were in Europe this year.
They were helped by Barkley and Lukaku. When i watch them both it is as if they are constantly getting the ball stuck under their feet
Nope they'll fall away as per, city and arsenal will come good.
Hopefully so will we, cream rising to top and all that
I don't understand the gegenpressing either.
If it is so great and effective, why isn't everyone doing it?
After all, Liverpool & Dortmund don't and didn't exclusively have the worlds greatest physical specimens.
Clearly only one explanation here, I think they are all doping, Lance Armstrong style with a even more sophisticated teutonic inspired ruthlessness.
Thought Liverpool looked very flat until Klopp obviously ripped into them at half time. You don't look half the team without Matip and Coutinho though, and having a few teenagers on the bench shows you aren't willing to pay the wages to increase your squads strength in depth.
Intetesting to hear what you lot make of Henderson hugging Barkley and his comments during the interview? I thought it was very dangerous from Barkley and I'm struggling to think of any great captains that would act so friendly to him after it. Maybe football has made me very cynical but is Henderson a bit too soft or just a top lad doing a local rival a favour?
Intetesting to hear what you lot make of Henderson hugging Barkley and his comments during the interview? I thought it was very dangerous from Barkley and I'm struggling to think of any great captains that would act so friendly to him after it. Maybe football has made me very cynical but is Henderson a bit too soft or just a top lad doing a local rival a favour?
It's not the only way to play football. Some managers prefer a different type of pressing and some others don't like it at all. I'd argue that most of the successful sides in Europe currently employ some kind of high press. United press now under Mourinho and the stats show that Chelsea win the ball high up the pitch more than anyone.
I watched Barcelona play Espanyol last night and from what I could see they consistently won the ball back within a few seconds of losing it. They were normally winning it back in the middle or final third as well. I think it's about playing with a high intensity and making the opposition feel uncomfortable in possession. It's also about controlling the ball as well. If you're pressing but can't keep the ball yourself then you're basically wasting energy.
Gegenpressing has been around for decades though. It's not something Klopp invented, just a way of playing that he believes in.
I've noticed that as well. Tiredness has got to come into it I think, Liverpool as a team were covering the most ground at the beginning of the season if I remember correctly - would be interesting to see a comparison between the first 10 and second 10 games of the season once we pass the 20 games mark.
The gegenpress is not sustainable as a system throughout a whole season. Just imagine if they were in Europe this year.
'Gegenpress' is becoming little more than a random buzzword with little meaning. We have the second highest average possession stats in the league (60%). Our game is not only about pressing.
Shit tackle from Barkley, but they're probably good friends off the pitch.
Explains why Klopp fell out with Sakho after he got caught doping
Is Mane going to ACoN?
Yeah.
What are the actual dates if they go all the way? When would Mane have to go and when would he be back?
I think a bit soft, or very naive. Barkley knew what he was doing. That wasn't just a badly timed challenge. He could've not left such a impact on Hendersons fibula if he wanted. Henderson is very lucky to walk away uninjured.
Stoke (H)
City (H)
Sunderland (A)
United (A)
Swansea (H)
Chelsea (H)
Hull (A)
Spurs (H)
Leicester (A)
Arsenal (H)
Burnley (H)
City (A)
Everton (H)
An easy game followed by a hard game until the start of April. Every other week they will be playing a top 6 team. Chelsea on the other hand have a tough January but then a comfortable period until the start of April. I think I'd prefer Chelsea's run. Just seems more relaxing knowing you have 6 winnable games in a row rather than shifting focus from low key game to massive game every week for 3 months.
City (H)
Sunderland (A)
United (A)
Swansea (H)
Chelsea (H)
Hull (A)
Spurs (H)
Leicester (A)
Arsenal (H)
Burnley (H)
City (A)
Everton (H)
An easy game followed by a hard game until the start of April. Every other week they will be playing a top 6 team. Chelsea on the other hand have a tough January but then a comfortable period until the start of April. I think I'd prefer Chelsea's run. Just seems more relaxing knowing you have 6 winnable games in a row rather than shifting focus from low key game to massive game every week for 3 months.
Ha ! Well that would be one, remote possibility, explanation !
I think they start like 2nd favourites - so there is every chance, unfortunately.
After that away game against City our final nine games are:
Everton (h)
Bournemouth (h)
Stoke (a)
West Brom (a)
Palace (h)
Watford (a)
Southampton (h)
West Ham (a)
Boro (h)
It's not a bad run to have to finish the season. Some tricky away games but if we avoid any serious injuries I think we'll do well. We need to get to that away game against City still in the top four. If we manage that I think we'll be ok. I'd back us at home against Spurs and Arsenal. It's only United and Chelsea that worry me out of the games you've listed.
Actually we're far more likely to drop points in the games I've listed knowing us.
Bugger, that's worse than I thought we had left. Ultimately, we need to beat the 'easier' teams plus whomever is above us, i.e. may well be Chelsea. And at least draw with the other big teams below us to keep them below us. Does seem like an easy run for Chelsea to the title to be fair.
They're getting a lot more rest between their next 3 games as well. They don't have to rotate as other teams will be forced to with less than 48 hours between games:
Chelsea: Monday - Saturday - Wednesday (10 days)
Arsenal: Monday - Sunday - Tuesday (9 days)
City/United: Monday - Saturday - Monday (8 days)
Spurs: Wednesday - Sunday - Wednesday (8 days)
Liverpool: Tuesday - Saturday - Monday (7 days)
I thought we played well specially second half. Just seemed more comfortable on the ball had alot more about us. To be fair Everton were dire. Resorting to thuggery quite alot. Koeman has a hell of a job on his hands. Alot of huff and puff but never threatening to blow the house down. Two clean sheets in a row is encouraging given our defensive history. Will probably need to sign an attacking to player to allow for both Coutinho's injury and Mane's being away in Jan/Feb.
If you look at Chelsea, our Saturday-Monday combination is criminal if you know it's the late and early kickoff, really don't know why they planned it like that.
We should arrive at the United game on a five game winning streak imo.
Fair enough, I trust you've been watching them a lot more than I have so I take your point.
My point was based on tonight's game, where I felt that Liverpool were quite flat and laboured for large portions of it. There was a lot of possession and you had Everton camped in their half but it was all very LVG-esque. Compare this to the opening game of the season away to Arsenal, where you went toe-to-toe with them and literally blew them away with your style of play. The same when you beat Chelsea away and outplayed Conte's men. We used to see wave after wave of Liverpool attacks and it was all a very fluid and offensive system.
Like I said, it would be interesting to see a comparison of the opening 10 games of the season where Liverpool looked formidable, to the past few games where they seem to have tailed off.
Let me start it off boys..
It is their year..
It must be official now!!!
They go again!
It is their year..
It must be official now!!!
They go again!
We're still gegenpressing but out ball usage isn't as great as earlier. Main reasons are our formation has suffered a little with Coutinho being out. Now Firmino is back to being wasteful and Origi is beginning to lose possession/confidence. Some tiredness too. But don't overlook Everton's desire to do everything to stop us playing our style. They almost got away with it if it wasn't for those pesky kids.
Please.
We played more if a game than youse did at Anfield.
We pressed and pressed. We won the three points. Nothing jammy at all.
Going back to the whole Gary vs Klopp thing, I think it may seem like Gary had the final word and won the battle. But in the long run Klopp made absolutely the right decision by dropping Karius and not letting his ego get in the way. The worst thing at this moment would be to make another couple of high profile errors.
Sadio mane should have been a united player last summer when we lost pedro because he is exactly a player who makes difference in tight games with his pace acceleration, workrate and energy for 90 mins. He is the first to react to win every first and second balls which makes all the difference in epl and also in the box mane is quicker and the first to react. In epl these qualities are the difference maker and ferguson era was full of these type of players. Reminds me of ji sung park every time. There are vultures circling around top talents and we missed sadio mane to another rival which in long term will definitely have an effect. We did a similar thing in 2013 neglecting kevin strootman in a managerial change letting him go to roma and we know what is happening since then. Lvg's football knowledge and team building capabilities were second to none and its a pity woodward neglected his opinion in the last market. Okay Mkh is great but mane is not a player united should have let go at all.
The difference mane makes for liverpool in big, tight games are all there to see. He'll be a big asset and a difference to liv in the city game. United must remember the mistakes and move on without forgetting the lessons learnt from the past. High work rate, energy , speed, pace , accelaration are very very important qualities of a successful epl player and the players united target next must have these qualities.
The difference mane makes for liverpool in big, tight games are all there to see. He'll be a big asset and a difference to liv in the city game. United must remember the mistakes and move on without forgetting the lessons learnt from the past. High work rate, energy , speed, pace , accelaration are very very important qualities of a successful epl player and the players united target next must have these qualities.
Look let's be honest there was not a bigger advocate of us signing Mane in here than me last summer but to big up LVGs team building capabilities is just wrong. He bought a lot of shite in his time here and got rid of better players in the process! I trust Jose more and in Myktarin we look like we have signed the better player.
ShadesOfTomato said:
This is very important. People still talk about Klopp, Dortmund and the GEGENPRESS while the actual Liverpool side uses it as just one of the components of their game. They are a possession based team since Rodgers and Klopp didn't change that, just adapted it with his tactics. The most important thing for a coach is to adapt his ideas and tactics to the qualities and strengths of his players. And the German is doing it wonderfully so far. I am enjoying Liverpool's way of playing and am pretty confident that they will finish in Top 4.
You earn the right to play in those sorts of games. Everton blew themselves out by 30 minutes without laying a glove on a very well set up Liverpool. Second half and Liverpool were extremely dominant and got a deserved winner. It's a very impressive result given the nature of the fixture against a team unbeaten at home.
So what if it wasn't 5-0, Liverpool have given enough thumpings this season. For months people on here have been suggesting Liverpool can't win ugly and dig out results. So tonight they do and they're tumescent...far from it. This is a valuable win; creates muscle memory for success in tight matches.
Liverpool are still prone to daft meltdowns in some games but they play good football and they will probably make the top 4. No Europe is a huge advantage for them.
They are with Tunisia and Algeria in the same group. Mane will go back to England in an instant ...
To be honest with all the comments here, I begin to be a little be annoyed by them, winning easy games like Boro, and winning ugly games like yesterday.
They have spell in the game when they play beautiful, and times when they don't and get result too.
Been second at Christmas is always good for a side without any European football.
I'm sure that Klopp will add players to his group in order to be sure of top 4 and having Champs League back, at least.
While they are having a great year with him, we are struggling at 6th position.
I saw the table this morning and I just wondered how we take 6/8 points to them and come close ?
Sure they'll loose game, but so do we, and probably more than them.
I begin to regret A LOT the 4 points lost to Stoke and Burnley earlier
I am not arguing for either Mkh or mane, i am arguing for both Mkh and Mane is what we needed. We should have let go of Ashley young last summer who would have fetched 8 -10 m for us and got sadio mane too because he is a player which should not have been missed one bit. We united fans must analyse why ferguson dominated the epl for so long, learn the lessons from it and carry that knowledge forward in our future transfer dealings and squad building process. For any player or creative wing player to be precise to be a success in Epl and suit traditional united philosophy first and foremost attribute which is a 100% a must have is " Work rate and energy pace and acceleration". Without these attributes no matter how much talent with the ball a player has he will never be as successful as he should be in Epl football. We have seen Jose had to drop Mkh for 3 months because he was struggling to cope with the high rythm and phisicality in this league , only now when he worked hard in the gym mkh is able to show his qualities. similar was the case with diamaria who chose to run away from this league and Memphis who is struggling till this day But Sadio mane already had it in abundance and he had all the epl experience needed and was a key strategic player as he is also very good with the ball creatively and is a defenders nightmare.
Chelsea's Wilian is another example in the Chelsea city game who made all the cutting edge difference to the game after comming on .
There was a reason players like Antonio valencia even with limited technical ability in his feet is one of the most effective winger or full back in our squad to this day. There was a reason Roy keane, Cr7 who struggled initiallytill he adapted , Cantonna Ji sung park type ones were among the ferguson favourites and the common attribute among all of these players was very high work rate energy accelaration and pace which is very very important to fight for every first and second ball and make a game changing difference going forward.
That's why lvg was totally right on targeting Sadio mane for united and we should not have missed him to another team that too for our most fiercest rivals with a top top manager now.
As far as Lvg is concerned i dont agree on your opinion one bit and still maintain his knowledge of football, knowledge of player profile and squad building capabilities were second to none. We did not hire Lvg for his playing philosophy to be instilled in our cub's dna but we hired him to build a long term top quality squad according to united principles of building it with young and academy players too which will provide a platform for long term future continued success in the league and in Europe as well,because there was a genuine belief in united board after the 2014 moyes debacle that with the retirement of scholes giggs ferdinand vidic evra fletcher we needed a serious rebuilding job.
Lvg did a fabulous job in barcelona and bayern squads in terms of identifying the core players which would make long term impact in the squad and set the platform for future success with xavi iniesta puyol valdes . In bayern it was even more fabulous when he promoted the likes of muller identifying alaba from the academy got ribery and robben on the wings from the market and playing schweinsteiger in the midfeild which were turning moment in bayern's history into a force in europe and the league.
Lvg's decisions of buying Martial and promoting rashford and fosu mensah who is very much like david alaba of bayern was one of the most excellent decisions he made in united. Lingard's rise from the academy to the first team is also one one them. cameron bothwick jackson's talent was also exiting to see. Lvg got shaw herrera and darmian for us as well who are top top players Lvg got great young players here for long term platform to be built for long term continued future success I dont think i would have seen martial 20 rashford 19 lingard 23 who is improving day by day fosumensah here at united if jose took over instead of him because our need was a long term squad rebuilding for future success. But Sadio mane was one of those which we missed. Lvg got good players overall. But as always with lvg he was a double edged sword, we did sell some dead weights but also some good players which deserved to stay in kagawa rafael and hernandez. As we saw in barca and bayern with the results on the pitch and play style which is rigid slow and boring so we decided to cut loose at the right moment. But his contribution and knowledge of football and some principles of football should not be forgotten one bit. Jose himself has said that he did not have any squad until now who has so much control of the game in posession and that is very important to have control when playing against top quality sides which can hurt you as well going forward our squad press very effectively to control the creativity of opposition sides now since carriack and herrera are paired together with pogba. United struggled initially under mourinho too when he decided to pair pogba with fellani and we dont have control of the game in the midfeild .
Jose brings his own quality and big players attracting capability, so this window was fabulous overall. Players like rojo and jones are showing now that lvg was not wrong to buy them or give them new contracts becuase they do come in handy just his playing philosophy was difficult to adapt to so they were struggling.
Players like mane or willian provide a cutting edge of work rate acceleration energy in big games where winning first and second balls decide where the difference in quality among top 6 sides is so less. In this era where epl is so so competitve with top managers and top squads that's where the titles will be won or lost.
if you have to be a top club with top quality you have to learn the lessons of the past success and failure and apply it going forward to dominate football consistantly. We had the privilage to analyse and learn the principles of posession based football also and that knowledge will be very useful to counter other top quality posession based sides.
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100% true.
Whilst a lot of what you say is correct I should point out that we are not just a possession-based team. We are equally as effective playing defensively and hitting on the break. Which I suppose is why this side is so exciting for us, we know that we have tactical options both of which can damage the opposition.
Sorry but disagree I think Liverpool will go through a serious dodgy patch as I have watched them 5-7 times this season and they are not a great team. Speaks volumes about the standard in the league at the moment (United included).
Eh ? We've only got City and United away in that spell. All other top teams are at Anfield. And look at those closing 9 games. The first half of the season was definitely our toughest (especially our starting 8-9 games which we came through very well indeed). I feel confident of Top 4. Any title aspirations will depend on how Chelsea / City / Arsenal do, especially during ACON, though not sure if they are missing any key players they can't easily cover.
You're entitled to your opinion though I guess you're in the minority (and 5-7 times is not enough really if you've mixed up the good days with the bad. I think I've seen every one of the top teams play at least 15 times, all comps). I'd not describe us as a 'great team' either. There isn't one of those in the PL at the current time. But we're as good, or bad, as any other top PL team can be on any given day. No team plays glorious football throughout 38 games but we've played as much as any other team, arguably more (maybe City were better at one time). Chelsea being consistent and grinding out wins rather than brilliant. It also can be argued we've been through our 'dodgy patch' with one win in four before yesterday.