Yes he's from South London originally, he started at Watfords academy
Jude Bellingham | Signed for Madrid
- Thread starter davidmichael
- Start date
- Status
Based on the productivity of our academy post 92 I would say Mainoo is far more likely to fade into League One obscurity then rival Bellingham's talent. But whatever helps you comfort yourself.
If you’re talking productivity in general United have statistically the best academy in England.
The team also just won the Youth Cup.
If we finish top 4 he will be in play for us. So he is dependent on us finding a striker in Jan. Gotta spend so we can spend some more.
We'd have to spend peanuts on a striker (and the playmaker I think we need) to afford Bellingham.
My thoughts precisely.
This is the sort of English hype that's legendary in it's stupidity. Genuine question asked of Kalvin Phillips in a press conference:
Start one, bench one, sell one | Bellingham, Haaland and Mbappe.
How on earth is Bellingham being mentioned among those two?
Interestingly he started by saying he'd start Jude, and I just stopped watching
Start one, bench one, sell one | Bellingham, Haaland and Mbappe.
How on earth is Bellingham being mentioned among those two?
Interestingly he started by saying he'd start Jude, and I just stopped watching
A bit overrated is a fair view I think. For some reason today people like to polarise discussions. If you question the view that someone is the best thing since sliced bread people will say you think they are crap. Nobody has time for opinions like: Very good but not quite as great as everyone is saying, which is where I fall on Bellingham.
His stats look very good for a centre midfielder, if you look at what he's been doing this season for Dortmund as well as during this World Cup. He can carry the ball forward at feet, he plays a a strong amount of progressive passes, he puts himself about in midfield. Also, this season, he's added goals to his game. At 19 its extremely impressive.
I've previously compared him to Leon Goretzka and Gigi Wijnaldum and you can see why Liverpool want him. He'd fill that hole Wijnladum left in Klopp's system and produce the same results, probably better long term.
However, I do think some of the praise is over the top. For example I've seen comparisons to Keane and Viera. I remember Keane very well. Can't claim to have watched as much of Viera. However, I think I saw enough of Arsenal and France to judge. Bellingham's got a lot of gifts but comparisons to Keane are way off. Maybe in four or five years time that will be different? Bellingham is just a kid. But some of the commentary and punditry is making out that Bellingham is that level now, which to me is nonsensical.
Roy Keane was not simply stronger than Bellingham, he also had effortlessly crisp passing through the lines. We all remember the stories of Dwight Yorke about Keane firing balls at people and saying Cantona would've controlled that. Yes, funny, but also when you watch games of Keane breaking the lines with passes you see the ball fizzing across the turf and taking opposition midfielders out the game. Bellingham doesn't have that in his locker and I'd be surprised if he develops it. Lets see. To be fair he has a lot of time on his side. Maybe one day there will be a game in his highlights reel to compare to Ireland vs Holland in Keane's.
To me Bellingham is a player who is good at a lot of things but not excellent at any one thing. He is one of the best midfielders in Europe. At 19 that's one hell of an achievement. However, he's not head and shoulders above players like Fede Valverde or Aurlien Tchoumeni and new midfielders make their pro debuts every day. To be so sure, as the English press seems to be, that Bellingham is going to be the best midfielder in the world one day is a bit mad. Think people are forgetting he got outdone by Adams and Musah like a week ago and we could've been two down against Senegal before he burst into life.
This is the sort of English hype that's legendary in it's stupidity. Genuine question asked of Kalvin Phillips in a press conference:
Start one, bench one, sell one | Bellingham, Haaland and Mbappe.
How on earth is Bellingham being mentioned among those two?
Interestingly he started by saying he'd start Jude, and I just stopped watching
Perfect example.
A really balanced view, and I completely agree, how on earth can you compare him to the two best players in the world? He will be a Gerrard / Lampard type of player, or for those old enough to remember, Bryan Robson or David Platt.
He makes some great runs into the box, getting into good positions and scoring goals, and carries the ball well, with a good engine. I am nor sure he is capable of dictating play, like a Scholes or De Jong.
As many teams play a midfield three, he cannot play in a two, or his team is likely to get overrun. Therefore, I see him being the most advanced of a midfield three, so would be competing for position with a Bruno (or Felix if we are after him). He offers a very different type of player to those two, and I'm not convinced he really suits ETH's style of play.
Where are they getting the money?
I think Bellingham can play in a midfield two, he does for Dortmund.
I agree that if we bought him it would change our style of play significantly. He is not another Modric or a Frenkie. Ten Hag would be opting for ball progression via ball carrying, rather than having deeper playmaker. That can work it would just be different. Arguably our best game of the season was against Spurs: You'd have Bellingham doing the job Fred did that night, just better. Bellingham is stronger than Fred and has more consistent passing, short and long, than Fred.
All that being said, I can see why you would suggest Bellingham would be best placed as the most advanced of a middle three. That is basically what he is doing for England (and what he'd be expected to do for Liverpool). He can offer that intensity and pressing high up the pitch while also getting in on the goals. If you're planning to construct a power midfield, dare I say it, a gegenpressing midfield, he's very much a round peg for a round hole.
We churn out a lot of championship and mid table premiere league players, but we don't produce world class talent, it's been decades.
Veg
So we are productive then.
Which is exactly what he said, he just complained about the quality of "produced" players (hate that word in regard to human beings)
Really hope Liverpool don’t sign this guy. We all know there in the market for a world class midfielder
Wouldn't listen to this geezer why would a random Italian journalist working for a random italian website called "relief" know how much Liverpool are willing to pay Dortmund. He is not in the loop. He threw out 140M for Felix as well so seems he is just pulling it out his backside like many Twitter speculators or recycling rumours. Doesn't have the profile or credibility to be used & actually be fed info like Fab Romano is.
Can't see pool spending that much but to be honest Bellingham fits them better than anyone else as the Wijnaldum replacement that they have sorely missed, it is a no brainer and he is being tapped up big time by Henderson and TAA so perhaps they will do add-ons galore to reach somewhere close as their statement signing. If he is not transferred this summer and spends another year at Dortmund for his price to drop a little like we did for Sancho, maybe that could be likely if Dortmund do what they did to us again to Pool.
Great post as well about Spanish and Dutch total football stye influence on the types of players developed. I do think Bellingham could play in a two with Casemiro or previously Matic, he is not a metronome but can keep it ticking just fine, though he to me is a classic engine box to box midfielder and he is not precious he likes a battle, sacrifice and putting a foot in. The only thing really missing from his game is cultured ball striking and range of passing that more cultured CM profiles like Enzo Fernandez would provide in a two, whilst still giving the defensive solidity and drive forwards you need.
He is obviously adding more to his game going forward though and being a goal threat I can see why people would look at him at #10 but I think he would be able to use his whole tool kit as one of two #8s in a 3 man with one DM sitting to unleash him and absolve him of being the last man between defence like we saw with Pogba, that responsibility stifled his best work. Liverpool is really perfect destination for him sadly.
Either through new investment or a takeover?
They haven't really spent much over the last few years either so they can easily afford it?
The issue is that they need at least three new midfielders really, so not sure spending that amount on one player makes sense?
I strongly suggest you consider the state of the team and how many players we've bought who have been world class have come to United and matched those performances here. It's not an easy place to come and be world class. Rashford/Pogba/Morrison/Greenwood etc. have all clearly had elite level talent and in the right circumstances and in the right situation (or possessed the right ethics) they would have become much better players than they've ended up being for United (although Rashford is clearly very, very good).
A few years back we also produced Evans/Fletcher/Pique etc.
No he didn’t say that.
He said Mainoo is more likely to fade into League One obscurity than rival Bellingham based on the productivity of our academy.
It doesn’t, and they’ve also never spent that amount without selling players either, so doubling their record fee without significant outgoings (who though?) seems far fetched barring a full takeover from new owners before the summer
Nonsense. Team should be sold by summer. And if we finish top 4 the biggest names will be in play.
So this jan window looms very large.
Yes, because the academy only produces players on that level
Would hate him in the prem at another club.
You listed a group of players that could have been top class, but aren't, so I am not sure your point. And Pogba isn't a United academy product, he's a Le Havre product, nor was Pique, he was Barcelona through and through, we just basically loaned him for a while.
I don't care about how many average players that we sell for 2 mil and no one ever here's from again. Give me some world class players post 92, I'll be waiting.
Hes English so the press have gone overboard. If he was French Spanish Italian one amongst quite a few he wouldnt be talked as much about. As for his German stats, we got a player who put up great numbers as a teenager in Germany and hes not even first choice here. Kagawa Mkhitarian and the lampard buys from Germany all did the same.
You’re utterly clueless
Coutinho......
If He was French Spanish the fans would be talking about him overboard more than the English media
It's nailed on
I remember when the English media were all wanking over Wiltshire. Then Pep was asked about him. His response “we have 10 Wiltshires in our reserves”
Same thing can be said about Bellingham.
Donald Love and Tyler Blackett, check mate.
hype is reaching insane levels
He’s already a scouser in my eyes
Je suis une baguette
Je suis une baguette
You reference Pep only to say this yet this is what he's actually said on the subject...
Funny comment, I get where you are coming from but bit think you are on the wind up there a bit silly really. I am sure as a long time united supporter you have seen fair share of failed prospects so I understand your cynicism but failed talents are as much about who the manager is and if the team and the club at large, is able to recognise and nurture that talent.
Don't need to be a scout to see Mainoo has more than just flash in the pan mid level talent, he has a maturity and composure belying his years, as he showed against La Liga mens opposition recently, it should secure him a top level career if we play him and place trust in him.
If he gets shunted out on a few bad loans to some anti-football league 2 team with a manager that's not playing to his game that could indeed derail his vast potential playing alongside dross that aren't on his wavelength week-in week out (much like Amad has experienced) and our horrendous use of loan system with where we've placed our youngsters has probably derailed many others too. Your vision of doom for his career could indeed follow that path if we fumble his development.
Name more than 5 truly indisputable "World Class" English academy developed players that started as schoolboys or younger in the English football pyramid since that 90's era which includes your easy picks Gerrard, Terrys and Lampards of this world. They are few and far between granted but England did a bit later on make your Rooneys, Ashley/Joe/Coles, Ferdinands, Owens and the like back then too. There has always been ballers throughout the years.
The obvious signs of the last 10 years though where our English u-20 won the world cup and top prospects moving abroad to get game time and showing they have special talent, is that English academy systems are now producing top talent at many levels, Bellingham included who got to play his way into the public eye from 16 or so in the championship.
In 2011 also in respone to how Germany turned around their youth development, the EPL also put in reforms to academy training and player acquisition called the Elite player performance plan (EPPP) to support our homegrown talent development and that is contributing now to this enviroment of burgeoning british youth talent. Funnily enough Birmingham closed their academy and shifted to B-team model like others have after selling Bellingham too IIRC.
Anyway point is, landscape & finance has transformed entirely since the 90's it goes without saying. Using the lack of World Class english players in those previous era to write off modern day prospects like Mainoo, consigning him to plying his trade at League 1 level is for the birds. I wonder if you would also write off Bellingham, Mount, Foden, Saka, James, TAA etc if they were in our academy coming through at 16/17 using the same logic just because most players dont reach elite level. Not every player has to reach those heights of "all-time great" to be deemed a success.
We do churn out vast numbers of premier league level footballers, from Danny Simpson to Micheal Keane, Bardsley to Shawcross, Jack Harrison at Leeds to Welbeck & Dwight Mcneil just off top of my head which is an indicator we can make local lads or schoolboys that have base talent levels quite handy, enough atleast that other clubs can develop further.
Don't need to be a scout to see Mainoo has more than just flash in the pan mid level talent, he has a maturity and composure belying his years, as he showed against La Liga mens opposition recently, it should secure him a top level career if we play him and place trust in him.
If he gets shunted out on a few bad loans to some anti-football league 2 team with a manager that's not playing to his game that could indeed derail his vast potential playing alongside dross that aren't on his wavelength week-in week out (much like Amad has experienced) and our horrendous use of loan system with where we've placed our youngsters has probably derailed many others too. Your vision of doom for his career could indeed follow that path if we fumble his development.
Name more than 5 truly indisputable "World Class" English academy developed players that started as schoolboys or younger in the English football pyramid since that 90's era which includes your easy picks Gerrard, Terrys and Lampards of this world. They are few and far between granted but England did a bit later on make your Rooneys, Ashley/Joe/Coles, Ferdinands, Owens and the like back then too. There has always been ballers throughout the years.
The obvious signs of the last 10 years though where our English u-20 won the world cup and top prospects moving abroad to get game time and showing they have special talent, is that English academy systems are now producing top talent at many levels, Bellingham included who got to play his way into the public eye from 16 or so in the championship.
In 2011 also in respone to how Germany turned around their youth development, the EPL also put in reforms to academy training and player acquisition called the Elite player performance plan (EPPP) to support our homegrown talent development and that is contributing now to this enviroment of burgeoning british youth talent. Funnily enough Birmingham closed their academy and shifted to B-team model like others have after selling Bellingham too IIRC.
Anyway point is, landscape & finance has transformed entirely since the 90's it goes without saying. Using the lack of World Class english players in those previous era to write off modern day prospects like Mainoo, consigning him to plying his trade at League 1 level is for the birds. I wonder if you would also write off Bellingham, Mount, Foden, Saka, James, TAA etc if they were in our academy coming through at 16/17 using the same logic just because most players dont reach elite level. Not every player has to reach those heights of "all-time great" to be deemed a success.
- Status