It says in the image.
They'll have just gone to the "local player" TM link for each club, which is what I posted for United. AWB and Maguire won't count.
Thanks. I didn't open the image, just skimmed the numbers.
Jude Bellingham | Confirmed Borussia Dortmund player
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Thanks. I didn't open the image, just skimmed the numbers.
Thanks, was wondering how the players I mentioned would skew the numbers possibly.
They have denied Tolisso but the stuff in regards to Van Der Beek from Verweij and Van Der Sar seem much stronger.
Definitely starting to look like Van Der Beek/Grealish not both
No. But generally if we tried and a player choses to go elsewhere, then I don't think we should go back for him in the future, unless he turns out to be a truly ballon d'or level player.
pretty much my feelings. If they see a better fit at another club, then fair play to them ... but I'm petty enough as a fan to not want to sign them later. I really don't see why we should be happy with spending big on players who rejected us two years earlier when they were available for little money.
@Adnan Do you think the emergence of Mejbri makes this signing less important for us?
It’s not automatic that Bellingham plays every game at Dortmund either. He has to compete with Brandt, Can, Delaney, Witsel and Reyna to name a few. For every Sancho there will be a player hyped like Bellingham who flops.
For all the talk about Dortmund being better then everyone because they aren’t driven by money, the strategy seems to be buying and developing players for the sole purpose of selling them for a huge profit in a few years.
If I were a Dortmund supporter I’d like that the money we make on player sales go to building a squad of players that see themselves with the club for the long haul. Common sense prevailed with us in a different way and we’re starting to see the rewards of that.
If I were a Dortmund supporter I’d like that the money we make on player sales go to building a squad of players that see themselves with the club for the long haul. Common sense prevailed with us in a different way and we’re starting to see the rewards of that.
That's kind of the point, though. Why spend 40-50 mil on Bellingham unless he's so insanely good right now that he'll walk into the first team, make us better right away, and not leave? He won't get the amount of leeway we give our own (who even then get shit on by large portions of the fan base) - the expectations will be compounded on him because of his price tag, right or wrong. Do you think Andreas Pereira or Jesse Lingard would still be at the club and getting games if we'd signed them for 20, 30, 40m? No. They've both been shit more than they've been useful for a while now - yet we persist with them because they came through the youth ranks.
This kid looks the real deal but not too fussed at the moment about Dortmund signing him. We’re currently pretty stacked in midfield and he’s at that age where we can’t really promise him a starting spot every week. Maybe we’ve got some agreement behind the scenes with Dortmund saying give us a fair deal on Sancho and we won’t stand in your way signing Bellingham? Probably just looking into it to much though ha.
That strategy is winning them titles and keeping them in the CL, where they've thrived - more than we can say at the moment. They've found a sustainable and profitable strategy given the league they play in.
What titles? And they fail miserabley in Europe each time
In the past decade, they've won the league twice and been runners-up four times, won the German FA cup a couple times, been to the quarter finals of the Champions League a couple times and were runners up once, all the while selling their best players almost every year. It's more success than we've had over that period.
Is it?
The potential of Mejbri definitely softens the blow of losing Bellingham IMO. It also could aide the development of Mejbri potentially as far as opportunities in the first team go.
In the immediate future it could work in our favour due to Bellingham not quite being upto scratch for the level we aspire to be at. And us signing a more ready and able player instead to lock horns with the likes of City, Liverpool and Chelsea would be more beneficial imo.
Our loss would potentially be a long term one, but we're constantly in the market for the best youth in the world, so it might not be a loss at all.
hopefully your not doing a Jose and counting Mickey Mouse cups as titles?
Bayern Munich are about to win the league for the 8th time in a row!
if it is a potential world beater its worth the risk for 25-30 mill
We have won the league more recently than Dortmund?
Also, all that success from the past came when they tried to hang on to players to the point they left on frees or nominal fees. Its not the same club at all.
We have literally have won more than them over this period. What have we got to be jealous about? One cup win and a few quarter finals? Hell we reached a quarter final and won a European title recently as well?
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Well it wouldn’t be £40-50m for starters it’ll be closer to £30m for whoever ends up with him and he would certainly become a first team player taking Pereira/Lingard out of the equation for starters (which some on here would pay handsomely for).
Joking aside the logic is pay a lot now to save a lot more later. Say Bellingham goes to Dortmund and has a great season or 2 that’s another potential close to £100m signing to negotiate around.
I like him as a player but he’s not a missing piece of our first XI puzzle so while it would be disappointing to miss out on him it’s not the end of the world. I do believe though if we think he’s that good we’re better off investing early.
We won the league more recently than Dortmund, and ours is a much more competitive league too.
Their strategy is effectively keeping them as the second best team in the league, and that's not to be sniffed at. But it won't ever do more than that. It's the equivalent of Wenger's Arsenal winning the 4th place trophy every season in the PL.
It's the natural way of football's financial food chain. Dortmund's expectations are to come second in the Bundesliga, get to a respectable stage in the CL each season, and maybe win an occasional DFB-Pokal. They can achieve that by buying lots of promising youngsters on the cusp of greatness, selling the ones that become stars for a lot of money after a few seasons of contribution, keeping the ones that become pretty good as the core of their side for years, and letting the ones that don't fulfil their promise go without having made too much of a loss on them.
United, despite a period of underachievement, are still expected at the start of each season to make big strides towards competing for the PL and the CL. The club's hierarchy will not be happy until we are at that highest level of the game again. Unlike Dortmund, we have the money to make the big signings to try and rush that process. Also unlike Dortmund, we cannot afford to entertain a handful of 'maybe' players every season. We certainly can't accept selling those that achieve stardom if we can possibly avoid it.
So it is entirely natural for Dortmund to get Bellingham over us this season, spending more on a 'talent' than we can really justify, offering him more first team football faster than we can offer. And it's also natural for United to buy Sancho for a big fat fee. Neither team is 'losing' in this scenario: both are just fulfilling their place in the food chain.
Eh? Since 2010 we’ve won/achieved more than that.
For people arguing over where he'll develop better/play more I reckon the reasons for choosing Dortmund are probably more cynical.
It's far easier to leave them and carry on an upwards career trajectory in 2-4 years than if he came here.
It's far easier to leave them and carry on an upwards career trajectory in 2-4 years than if he came here.
It's probably around the same if we factor in the last few years of Sir Alex, but it's hard to deny that the post-Fergie years have been trainwreck after trainwreck with little tangible success and plenty of mediocrity on and off the pitch. Only the honeymoon period under Ole and the last few months prior to the league shutting down have really felt like the United most of us fell in love with to start. I never got it with Moyes, never got it with LVG, and certainly didn't with Jose.
Nevertheless, we're comparing fecking Borussia Dortmund and Manchester United. What we've achieved in that time period is not even the absolute minimum a club of United's size and resources should be achieving. I probably did a very poor job of getting the point across - that Dortmund has been able to maintain a level of sustained, relative success with their transfer strategy that includes consistently selling their best players by their early 20's. Under all three of the post-SAF managers, our football has been shit. Occasionally effective shit, but still shit.
If a young attacking player sees more opportunity to hone their skills in a more free flowing team in a more generous league with less pressure, don't they have the right to make that decision? Under Sir Alex, and finally again under Ole, there's a lot of talk about getting the right personalities at United. Not every player can come into a club the size of United at 17, 18, 19 and immediately produce the goods. I think this is where the difference lies with our homegrown talent -- the likes of Rashford, Greenwood, McTominay, etc had been at the club for years and understood the ethos before they made their way to the first team. The United Way is not something they have to learn in addition to slotting into the side.
I do think we're getting back on the right track, but over the last 10 years, how many young players have we really bought and properly developed into first team regulars? De Gea, Martial, and Wan-Bissaka? Whether that's down to strategy or incompetent managers/Woodward's is anyone's best guess, but that's a seriously poor haul for such a period -- and those three still cost us well over 100mil put together. At the end of the day, I'm not saying I like it, I'm just saying I understand why players like Bellingham and Haaland may pick Dortmund over United.
Absolutely.
The reality is Dortmund are embarrassing sell-outs. 80,000 fans every week and they’re not much more than a glorified youth academy. In 8 years they’ve won one German Cup and that’s it.
For me it’s an embarrassment, for others they’re a model of something to worship. I don’t get it all.
The players someone listed earlier as examples of who Dortmund developed is actually nothing more than a sorry list of players they sold, as opposed to actually trying to be a competitive football club.
Imagine Chelsea or United just constantly buying then selling their best players? The fans would revolt.
And that's the second biggest club in Germany you're talking about
No wonder Bayern win it every year even the ones where they're shit themselves
Dortmund are a great club but they are also pretty much a stepping stone club now. Sancho, Haaland and now possibly Bellingham. It must be frustrating as a Dortmund Fan. Players go to them to raise their profile before securing a move to a bigger club.
Totally.
Bayern you can win the league every season and we’ll build a reputation on buying and selling a player for big money every couple of years. We’ll hope nobody notices the half dozen duds we also buy every year who turn out shit.
Gotcha, I haven't seen much of either but from the bits I've seen they seem to have similar attributes and are close in age, so if we are going to go big in this window on a player who is young enough to play Under-19 football then Camavinga would make more sense as we lack a proper holder in the youth ranks IMO, although I know some will cite Garner.
Is Dortmund really that good at developing players?
I know this is far from a complete list, but those whom they have "developed" recently came in from other clubs close to the finished product, no?
Haaland was a goal scoring machine everywhere he's been, not sure he's developed there, just continued to do what he has always shown he can do, score goals in bunches.
Sancho was the best player in England (and perhaps the world) for his age group and was accomplished at youth international tournaments for years before he became, so he's simply remained the best for his age group. Has he really added to his game or just had the normal progression of a wonderkid?
Dembele was at Dortmund for one year and scored 6 goals, not sure how much he developed there.
Alexander Isak was a wonderkid at AIK, and he has been farmed out for the past two years ala Chelsea.
Perhaps they added to Pulisic's developmental process, but frankly he hasn't shown much.
To me, Dortmund look like opportunistic buyers. Get a wonderkid early, let him play at a bigger club, sell him for a huge profit and let the inference linger that they "developed" him into a rising star.
I know this is far from a complete list, but those whom they have "developed" recently came in from other clubs close to the finished product, no?
Haaland was a goal scoring machine everywhere he's been, not sure he's developed there, just continued to do what he has always shown he can do, score goals in bunches.
Sancho was the best player in England (and perhaps the world) for his age group and was accomplished at youth international tournaments for years before he became, so he's simply remained the best for his age group. Has he really added to his game or just had the normal progression of a wonderkid?
Dembele was at Dortmund for one year and scored 6 goals, not sure how much he developed there.
Alexander Isak was a wonderkid at AIK, and he has been farmed out for the past two years ala Chelsea.
Perhaps they added to Pulisic's developmental process, but frankly he hasn't shown much.
To me, Dortmund look like opportunistic buyers. Get a wonderkid early, let him play at a bigger club, sell him for a huge profit and let the inference linger that they "developed" him into a rising star.
Yeah clubs don’t really develop players anyway do they.
Players usually develop naturally over time by playing games and becoming older. What you see is World Class players making natural career progression up through the ranks and Dortmund is just a high profile second tier club.
This idea of developing players seems to be a relatively recent concept which I think is largely misinterpreted. What would someone get from the various different coaches at Dortmund that they wouldn’t get anywhere else? I certainly think it became a thing on here as it was used as a stick to beat Mourinho with, without really going into what he was or wasn’t doing.
The fact is ability, games, and the player’s natural develop are the factors. Not coaching.
they've actually sold Isak ... and he only blossomed AFTER leaving them. Dortmund have a buyback clause but he's already said that he doesn't want to go back there.
I wouldn't call them a club which "develops" a lot of talent either. They just hoover up a lot of young talent all across Europe and give them playing time, and are therefore bound to strike gold every now and then. But yeah, for every Sancho there's a couple of Isaks. It's been their MO for a while and they are pretty much stuck in their niche now, which is why every young talent will consider moving there: they'll give you a chance and playing time, and if you excel and bigger clubs call, they won't stand in your way. It's a good way to make money, but they'll never win anything of note with that model. And it's a shame too because Bundesliga becomes that much more of a bore with Bayern winning the title every single year.
Dortmund buys good young players and give them the playtime + exposure needed to become stars and attract interests from big clubs.
They're not the "find an hidden gem" type club, their academy is pretty average too.
Basically they do what Ajax does on a bigger scale (Suarez,Eriksen,De Jong) but unlike Ajax they don't mix it in with good homegrown players.
It's a smart choice from Bellingham, since he's coming in with a lot of hype they can't afford to relegate him to the reserve, he'll play for sure, doubt he'd receive that kind of treatment at Old Trafford.
They're not the "find an hidden gem" type club, their academy is pretty average too.
Basically they do what Ajax does on a bigger scale (Suarez,Eriksen,De Jong) but unlike Ajax they don't mix it in with good homegrown players.
It's a smart choice from Bellingham, since he's coming in with a lot of hype they can't afford to relegate him to the reserve, he'll play for sure, doubt he'd receive that kind of treatment at Old Trafford.
Not sure if sarcastic or honest opinion...
If you are not sarcastic, why do you think some coaches and managers are paid more than other and why aren't club owners just picking the teams based on what they perceive are player ability and potential?
This feels like the opinion of a very poor FM player where you just need to play the high potential kid and they'll turn in to the world-beater the scouts expect. But even in FM the quality of coaching affects the end result greatly.
To play games and fit into relevant systems.
Not to be an actual better footballer. You’ve totally shat the bed with your response.
Rash (well yes, hope he'll be world class one day), McT (yes, I like him, still young but not good enough to win titles again atm), Williams (well...wait and see. Not sure he'll be something special), Tuanzebe (same as Williams), Fred (well, I was behind him in the 1st season, happy to be right about him).
You totally got me with that snarky comment. For sure.
You didn't answer why are some coaches more better paid and more sought after from bigger clubs than other. Do they have anything to do with it or are they just there to put cones on the ground and blow whistles?
I did answer your question.
They aren’t to make a player be better at football they are there to integrate them into a team and play matches successfully.
It’s not that hard to understand. A player’s development is his responsibility not a coach’s. Players don’t fail in football because they weren’t coached well enough.
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