[Timdbro]

He is going to lose possession during the course of the match that's what you get with a player like him and by now people should come to terms with it. He is our only creative spark in our team. If during any part of the match if look pleasing to the eye Mata is always involved.
He is the best player in our squad at this point IMO.

Missing the point in my opinion - losing possession because you're trying an ambitious through ball or dribble near the opponent's box is acceptable, even desirable in our cautious setup. Losing possession quite deep because you're turning into trouble and getting muscled off the ball is dangerous, and Mata's guilty of that far too often for someone of his intelligence and technique.

 

[Danny Boi]

Poor game in general yesterday, but with those two passes he showed what he can offer as a creative 10 in this system.He has so much more to offer in the middle, particularily with rapid wingers like Depay ( and hopefully Pedro) finally in the team.

 

[Member 5225]

Love Mata - why don't we give him a slightly free-er role behind the striker (fighting it out with Rooney) ala Silva at City....?

 

[Brwned]

I really don't understand why Mata is played out wide. Just doesn't have the pace to be a wide player. Different story as a No10 though.

I don't get why people have such an issue with it given he's spent over half his club career out wide and most of his international career there. It's not just some role this nutjob van Gaal has inexplicably forced him into.

 

[Kill 'em all]

We will be so lethal if we play Hernandez instead of Rooney, Mata behind him, Pedro on the right if we get him and Memphis on the left.

 

[Devil may care]

I don't get why people have such an issue with it given he's spent over half his club career out wide and most of his international career there. It's not just some role this nutjob van Gaal has inexplicably forced him into.

I think you have to put it in context with the fact as United we have always played with blistering pace on the flanks, players that could drive at a fullback and go past them. Mata basically goes backwards or square from his starting position and leaves the shape of the team lopsided when he drifts to the center where he needs to be to do most of his best work anyway, so that is why many want him to simply start centrally to begin with and give him pacey runners on both wings to hit with his passing.

 

[Speak]

I think you have to put it in context with the fact as United we have always played with blistering pace on the flanks, players that could drive at a fullback and go past them. Mata basically goes backwards or square from his starting position and leaves the shape of the team lopsided when he drifts to the center where he needs to be to do most of his best work anyway, so that is why many want him to simply start centrally to begin with and give him pacey runners on both wings to hit with his passing.

He'd do a lot of this if he was played centrally too.
A good chunk of playing as a 10 is picking up the ball at a 90 degree angle, or even with your back to goal.
You then need strength and dribbling to turn your man or shield the ball and hold it. He lacks that.

I still don't see how he's better suited to play centrally. If anything, playing wide actually allows him more space and reduces the tightness of the marking and general congestion.

He's not really perfectly suited to either role, in my opinion. But he's definitely not suited to a central role any more than a wide role.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I think you have to put it in context with the fact as United we have always played with blistering pace on the flanks, players that could drive at a fullback and go past them. Mata basically goes backwards or square from his starting position and leaves the shape of the team lopsided when he drifts to the center where he needs to be to do most of his best work anyway, so that is why many want him to simply start centrally to begin with and give him pacey runners on both wings to hit with his passing.

Like that David Beckham?

Mata is fine where he is playing, he has license to drift in whenever he feels like it and usually does.

 

[Devil may care]

He'd do a lot of this if he was played centrally too.
A good chunk of playing as a 10 is picking up the ball at a 90 degree angle, or even with your back to goal.
You then need strength and dribbling to turn your man or shield the ball and hold it. He lacks that.

I still don't see how he's better suited to play centrally. If anything, playing wide actually allows him more space and reduces the tightness of the marking and general congestion.

He's not really perfectly suited to either role, in my opinion. But he's definitely not suited to a central role any more than a wide role.

In truth you sum up why he wouldn't be a first choice player for me at all.

 

[Jev]

For me, the essential thing when Mata plays on the right is that Darmian bombs forward more than he has done so far. I like Darmian but he needs to be a bit more adventurous. With Mata constantly cutting inside, we need an overlapping right-back to offer an outlet and keep the left-back occupied like Valencia did well last year.

 

[Devil may care]

Like that David Beckham?

Mata is fine where he is playing, he has license to drift in whenever he feels like it and usually does.

Beckham was certainly much quicker and stronger than Mata and I think the fact he was one of the best crossers in the game shows he had no problem getting around his fullback and delivering.

Where he is playing means our shape constantly ends up lopsided and we have 3 players all occupying the same space centrally.

 

[Cheesy]

I think you have to put it in context with the fact as United we have always played with blistering pace on the flanks, players that could drive at a fullback and go past them. Mata basically goes backwards or square from his starting position and leaves the shape of the team lopsided when he drifts to the center where he needs to be to do most of his best work anyway, so that is why many want him to simply start centrally to begin with and give him pacey runners on both wings to hit with his passing.

Just because we've traditionally often played with pacy wingers doesn't mean we necessarily have to do so with Mata, though. I do think there's plenty of merit in potentially playing him centrally, but if we give him a wide role with plenty of freedom to drift in then he's equally as capable of performing there.

 

[kouroux]

I don't think he has to play as a 10 because then he would be easily outmuscled and man marked. When he starts on the right and has the freedom to drift, he is at his best. He can find more space and time to make dangerous pace. Since he hasn't got great strength to say the least nor dribbling skills, playing him in the middle would render him almost useless. Let him start on the right but give him license to roam free, a bit like Messi currently does for Barca.

 

[Cheesy]

I don't think he has to play as a 10 because then he would be easily outmuscled and man marked. When he starts on the right and has the freedom to drift, he is at his best. He can find more space and time to make dangerous pace. Since he hasn't got great strength to say the least nor dribbling skills, playing him in the middle would render him almost useless. Let him start on the right but give him license to roam free, a bit like Messi currently does for Barca.

To be fair, even though he'd be marked heavily and potentially outmuscled, opposition teams doing so to the extent where he's nullified would probably free up space for the likes of Depay and Januzaj to pose a threat of their own. It's handy for a central player to have plenty of strength, but I don't think it's completely essential if they have enough ability.

I agree though that Mata can have plenty to offer when he's drifting in from out wide.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't think he has to play as a 10 because then he would be easily outmuscled and man marked. When he starts on the right and has the freedom to drift, he is at his best. He can find more space and time to make dangerous pace. Since he hasn't got great strength to say the least nor dribbling skills, playing him in the middle would render him almost useless. Let him start on the right but give him license to roam free, a bit like Messi currently does for Barca.

Or Silva and Modric, for most of their PL careers.

 

[Devil may care]

Just because we've traditionally often played with pacy wingers doesn't mean we necessarily have to do so with Mata, though. I do think there's plenty of merit in potentially playing him centrally, but if we give him a wide role with plenty of freedom to drift in then he's equally as capable of performing there.

One of our biggest issues has been a lack of pace in attack, basically filling a position usually used for speedy players to play another AM who will end up occupying the same space as our #10 and #9 most of time isn't a good way to balance a team's attack.

 

[Devil may care]

Or Silva and Modric, for most of their PL careers.

Modric? He played as a CM for most of his career, he only started out at Spurs on the wing until he got used to the league.

 

[kouroux]

Or Silva and Modric, for most of their PL careers.

Yeah, there are many examples like that. Mata needs to be more courageous with his passing and he'll be fine.

 

[ThanksBoss26]

I don't think he has to play as a 10 because then he would be easily outmuscled and man marked. When he starts on the right and has the freedom to drift, he is at his best. He can find more space and time to make dangerous pace. Since he hasn't got great strength to say the least nor dribbling skills, playing him in the middle would render him almost useless. Let him start on the right but give him license to roam free, a bit like Messi currently does for Barca.

I guess we saw a bit of evidence of this last night. His excellent pass for Januzaj coming from the left hand side.

 

[Cheesy]

One of our biggest issues has been a lack of pace in attack, basically filling a position usually used for speedy players to play another AM who will end up occupying the same space as our #10 and #9 most of time isn't a good way to balance a team's attack.

You can have a pacy player on one wing though, while having a more skill based one who drifts inside on the other wing.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Beckham was certainly much quicker and stronger than Mata and I think the fact he was one of the best crossers in the game shows he had no problem getting around his fullback and delivering.

Where he is playing means our shape constantly ends up lopsided and we have 3 players all occupying the same space centrally.

Beckham never needed to get around his fullback, which is kind of what made him so good. He could deliver a deadly cross from anywhere.

At times I think It really does help teams like Chelsea/City not having to think about their traditional ways.

 

[Devil may care]

You can have a pacy player on one wing though, while having a more skill based one who drifts inside on the other wing.

To me that just makes the team lopsided, ideally you have pace on both wings, especially since we have none centrally, this is where I expect LvG hoped Di Maria would advance us and how I imagine he is envisioning Pedro will spruce up our attack. If you have two runners in the wide forward roles then you give targets other than Rooney for the midfield and #10 to try and thread in, one of Mata's best assets.

 

[kouroux]

One of our biggest issues has been a lack of pace in attack, basically filling a position usually used for speedy players to play another AM who will end up occupying the same space as our #10 and #9 most of time isn't a good way to balance a team's attack.

More than anything else our biggest issue has been dwelling on the ball and hesitancy to play a forward/dangerous pass. Pace does help a lot no doubt and I'm not saying you're wrong but with quicker passing it can be less of an issue.

 

[Devil may care]

Beckham never needed to get around his fullback, which is kind of what made him so good. He could deliver a deadly cross from anywhere.

At times I think It really does help teams like Chelsea/City not having to think about their traditional ways.

Becks was very accurate from anywhere inside the opposition half that is true, and he was very clever at getting a yard of space to make his delivery.

Maybe, but even at a club like Chelsea they currently employ the logical system of pace on the flanks and the slower, passing hub centrally.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Modric? He played as a CM for most of his career, he only started out at Spurs on the wing until he got used to the league.

I said PL careers. The majority of which he played out wide.

 

[DWelbz19]

Yeah, there are many examples like that. Mata needs to be more courageous with his passing and he'll be fine.

The biggest difference with him and those players is that they're excellent ball retainers, with their agility and deft feet. Mata doesn't really have that. He's fine there for now but I'm not sure he'll keep a place should we sign Pedro.

 

[kouroux]

The biggest difference with him and those players is that they're excellent ball retainers, with their agility and deft feet. Mata doesn't really have that. He's fine there for now but I'm not sure he'll keep a place should we sign Pedro.

That ball retention will be even more needed if he were to play more centrally, he'd face CBs and DMs. He would need to be even better.

 

[Devil may care]

More than anything else our biggest issue has been dwelling on the ball and hesitancy to play a forward/dangerous pass. Pace does help a lot no doubt and I'm not saying you're wrong but with quicker passing it can be less of an issue.

We do dither on the ball without a doubt, and I mentioned in another thread that it may be down to LvG's obsession with ball retention that is causing this ultra cautious approach of moves stopping dead to avoid playing a risky ball. However I just think if we had some genuine pace on those wide areas then Mata would have two great targets to aim for if he was picking the ball up centrally, where too often we have so little movement ahead of whoever has the ball. Last night people thought Memphis was poor and he certainly wasn't great, but 3 times he made good runs that gave Mata and Januzaj a target to hit. With Rooney having no pace and constantly dropping deep I think we need to look to the flanks to provide the runs in behind.

I think the issue with Mata is he is so easily hustled off the ball that LvG doesn't want to risk him centrally and I can understand that as well, it's a catch 22.

 

[Devil may care]

I said PL careers. The majority of which he played out wide.

I don't think he did mate, I'll drag @GlastonSpur in here to see, but to my recollection Modric only played wide for about a season or so.

 

[Speak]

We do dither on the ball without a doubt, and I mentioned in another thread that it may be down to LvG's obsession with ball retention that is causing this ultra cautious approach of moves stopping dead to avoid playing a risky ball. However I just think if we had some genuine pace on those wide areas then Mata would have two great targets to aim for if he was picking the ball up centrally, where too often we have so little movement ahead of whoever has the ball. Last night people thought Memphis was poor and he certainly wasn't great, but 3 times he made good runs that gave Mata and Januzaj a target to hit. With Rooney having no pace and constantly dropping deep I think we need to look to the flanks to provide the runs in behind.

I think the issue with Mata is he is so easily hustled off the ball that LvG doesn't want to risk him centrally and I can understand that as well, it's a catch 22.

Bit in bold: a lot of people say this, and I understand where they're coming from, but I dont think that adding pace would have the effect that people assume. No amount of pace makes up for the fact that - as he's shown - Mata has to release the ball quickly, when under pressure... or he loses it.

At least if he drops deep he has time and space. But if he sits in the pocket where a 10 can usually pick out runs consistently, then he'd struggle without that time and space.

Basically, no amount of pace in wide areas (in a suffocating possession system) can make up for the fact that your no.10 can't hold the ball long enough to pick out the passes.

Look at the best no.10s (in possession teams) none of them are just picking passes for fun without sitting on the ball.
It just doesn't work like that. He'd get bullied, and still struggle to hold the ball for long enough to pick out the runs. Pace or no pace.

It's not like there's acres of space to pass into and to really use the pace. If there was, then, yes, you could get away with literally playing first time passes all game, and knocking it round the corner etc. without sitting on the ball first.

 

[No.8]

I think Mata should keep his place for now but he it seems he wants a central role and can be much more effective there imo. If Pedro or a more natural winger is signed he may well be dropped, the formation is more a 4-2-3-1 with the two holding midfielders than a 4-3-3 but that could be LvG not having many options for a right winger, if the boss does switch to a 4-3-3 then Mata's position/selection could come under threat as he doesn't seem very keen in carrying out his defensive duties as witnessed yesterday when Villa attacked down their left yesterday and Darmian got caught out of position. I like Mata, he's one of the more creative players United have but it's hard to find the perfect position for him although I'm sure he'd like to play second striker/in the hole whichever you prefer!

 

[Devil may care]

Bit in bold: a lot of people say this, and I understand where they're coming from, but I dont think that adding pace would have the effect that people assume. No amount of pace makes up for the fact that - as he's shown - Mata has to release the ball quickly, when under pressure... or he loses it.

At least if he drops deep he has time and space. But if he sits in the pocket where a 10 can usually pick out runs consistently, then he'd struggle without that time and space.

Basically, no amount of pace in wide areas (in a suffocating possession system) can make up for the fact that your no.10 can't hold the ball long enough to pick out the passes.

Look at the best no.10s (in possession teams) none of them are just picking passes for fun without sitting on the ball.
It just doesn't work like that. He'd get bullied, and still struggle to hold the ball for long enough to pick out the runs. Pace or no pace.

It's not like there's acres of space to pass into and exploit the pace. If there was, then, yes, you could get away with literally playing first time passes all game, and knocking it round the corner etc. without sitting on the ball first.

Can't argue with any of this, I'm just trying to look at the positive side of the possibilities in the risk/reward dynamic of starting him centrally and how we might help him be more effective there. Basically as I said in my other response he would not be a starter for me, he loses our shape and stalls our play when playing on the right, and despite his eye for a pass all the points you make about his physical limitations centrally are on point and why I suspect LvG seems to want to start anyone but him there.

 

[sullydnl]

I do get the reservations people have over Mata playing as a #10.

However, do we actually have any better #10's at the club? He doesn't need to be perfect to be better than the rest.

I know a lot of people would like to see Herrera there (even though it isn't really his best position either) but he doesn't really provide enough end product given we'll probably be relying on our #10 to support Rooney in a big way.

After that it's just the likes of Depay, Januzaj, Fellaini, Young or Rooney. Not awe inspiring options.

We know Mata provides a lot of end product and we know he has previously been brilliant as a #10 (albeit at a different club with a different style). Surely that makes him a better choice than those other players? It's not like we want the team to be built around him, just give him a run of games in what is supposed to be his best position and see how he does.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't think he did mate, I'll drag @GlastonSpur in here to see, but to my recollection Modric only played wide for about a season or so.

I could be wrong. He was at Spurs 4 years and I thought he only played CM in his final season. Interestingly, wiki says he "did a Dave" and didn't play in Spurs opening games of that season because he was intent on joining Madrid.

 

[kouroux]

Bit in bold: a lot of people say this, and I understand where they're coming from, but I dont think that adding pace would have the effect that people assume. No amount of pace makes up for the fact that - as he's shown - Mata has to release the ball quickly, when under pressure... or he loses it.

At least if he drops deep he has time and space. But if he sits in the pocket where a 10 can usually pick out runs consistently, then he'd struggle without that time and space.

Basically, no amount of pace in wide areas (in a suffocating possession system) can make up for the fact that your no.10 can't hold the ball long enough to pick out the passes.

Look at the best no.10s (in possession teams) none of them are just picking passes for fun without sitting on the ball.
It just doesn't work like that. He'd get bullied, and still struggle to hold the ball for long enough to pick out the runs. Pace or no pace.

It's not like there's acres of space to pass into and to really use the pace. If there was, then, yes, you could get away with literally playing first time passes all game, and knocking it round the corner etc. without sitting on the ball first.

I wanted to write something similar but your post is perfect. Aston Villa, yesterday, were full of very quick players and yet they didn't cause that much trouble. Pace is a good tool but you need to have a good and quick passer to exploit it.

 

[MoneyMay]

We know Mata provides a lot of end product and we know he has previously been brilliant as a #10 (albeit at a different club with a different style). Surely that makes him a better choice than those other players? It's not like we want the team to be built around him, just give him a run of games in what is supposed to be his best position and see how he does.

Context is important though. He was brilliant in a free role, in a Chelsea side that was under transition. He didn't need to track back and was always ready for the counter. The Chelsea side he starred in was awful. As a #10 or second striker, whatever you want to call it, he needs to occupy congested areas and unfortunately that's not in his skill-set. He's incredibly easy to mark out a game. All you have to do is pressure him from behind and he'll run back towards his own half, giving the opposition lots of time to organise their defensive shape. We have already given him a run as a #10 and that didn't go too well. He's played well on the right and I don't see any reason why his position should be changed.

 

[RDCR07]

Very good performance from him yesterday. He was nonexistent in the first game but he definitely made his presence felt against Villa. He affects the game in a good way when he is all over and swap positions with the other attacking mids. His assist to Januzaj was just a gorgeous pass as well. If we can score at least 2 goals a month that would go a long way in helping our team and his own confidence.

 

[United again!]

Pace is a good tool but you need to have a good and quick passer to exploit it.

Are you saying that he is not a good and quick passer? Because I am not sure I agree with that. I think personally he's just being scared out of doing anything dangerous until the opportunity really presents itself as wide open. Much like the two fantastic passes last night. Because he doesn't want to be dropped, whenever there is movement around him he almost always opts for a safe option (see below two players made the run for him to ignore).

Personally I believe he knows his own legs are gone. I think if we geared his confidence toward sitting in the pocket and playing the 10 role without having to deal with defending to much, basically playing off the ball retrieval players with an idea to get the ball forward. I think this may work well for Mata personally. We need him just in advance of the opposition midfield every time we win the ball to get a pass, touch on it, turn and play someone in. I noticed that Januzaj or Depay never really got back far enough to link up play and were always getting the ball so close to Rooney as to not be very creative.

Here is another example of his tendancy to not try a pass and slow down the attack. He even has to apologize to Morgan who has made a great run after some fortuitous control and dart to make the outlet. Basically this is one of the biggest things that is really clogging our system. (It isn't just Mata though to be fair)

 

[Mali_Zeus]

I don't think he did mate, I'll drag @GlastonSpur in here to see, but to my recollection Modric only played wide for about a season or so.

He played in Dinamo wide, as a LM in 4-4-2 formation.

 

[Jagga7]

Mata has done great on the right side. I'm not getting many of the complaints, since he has played in that role he has been one of our better and most consistent performers.