[Sam]

I like Mata, and I hate to say it, but I'm slowly starting to think he's a bit of a luxury player.

The type that will look good when everything is going well, the team is playing well, or if the whole team is set up to accommodate him. But when the chips are down, and the team isn't on song, he'll rarely stand out or be the guy to turn it around.

I think the only way we'll, consistently (and thats the key) see the best of Mata, is when (and if) the whole team clicks.

 

[Speak]

Agree with everything you said, especially about the 'assist before the assist' and yep by holding possession, that's what I meant. Edited. Living in a foreign country has taken a toll on my English .

Indeed, Silva essentially controls and commands City's attacking play through such qualities and hence why he is so good in that position. It's clear as day Mata is not capable of the same and possesses a different skillset. Those qualities are essential for a no10 in a possesion oriented game no10, and are essential in breaking teams down. People keep banging on about how many we have; they ignore the fact that we don't have any with the required skillsets like that of Silva, Isco, Coutinho etc to really provide the required creativity/penetration from the middle. Getting assists and being creative are two totally different things, although they often coincide. Silva is extremely creative yet never seems to get brilliant assist tallys. Go figure. I actually think the closest we have to this is Herrera and I am curious to see if he gets some game time there throughout the season. Is that where he was playing today?

We're singing from the exact same hymn sheet.
Yeah, Herrera came on for Depay.

 

[Speak]

I like Mata, and I hate to say it, but I'm slowly starting to think he's a bit of a luxury player.

The type that will look good when everything is going well, the team is playing well, or if the whole team is set up to accommodate him. But when the chips are down, and the team isn't on song, he'll rarely stand out or be the guy to turn it around.

I think the only way we'll, consistently (and thats the key) see the best of Mata, is when (and if) the whole team clicks.

I don't think the team even needs to play well, particularly. Chelsea weren't lighting up the league while he was doing well.
It's about playing to his strengths.
However, the reality is, very few of the best teams will play to his strengths.

Most of them dominate the ball, which requires strength and holding the ball - which he lacks.
Most of them require pace on the wing - which he lacks.
Most of them require some form of defensive shift - he's not great, but he tries.
Most of them don't want their number 10 playing as a second striker - which he does.

The better we get, the less likely he is to keep his place in the team, in my opinion.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Anyone got a gif of that touch and skill towards the end of todays game? It was easily the highlight of the game.

I expected him to be a player who can make lots of defence splitting passes when we signed him. Perhaps because I wasn't paying attention when he was at Chelsea. Whatever, it doesn't seem to be part of his game at all. Which is a problem. Presumably Van Gaal thinks Depay can be the man to open up defences. Big ask for a young player with a lot of adapting still to do.

Whilst I agree that he should be doing it more, it is difficult to make defense splitting passes when there's no one making the runs to get on the end of such passes. I swear I moved around more stood in the stand then Rooney did up front today.

 

[Speak]

Whilst I agree that he should be doing it more, it is difficult to make defense splitting passes when there's no one making the runs to get on the end of such passes. I swear I moved around more stood in the stand then Rooney did up front today.

It's as much to do with Mata as anyone else.
I'm almost certain that Silva wouldn't suffer in the same way in this team. He'd make us look more threatening, but would probably end up with fewer assists to his name.

Because he'd hold the ball that bit longer, and go round people to take them out of the game, and he'd be able to make better angles, invite his fullbacks forward and invite his teammates to make more runs. He generally spots runs and gaps better than Mata too.

Whereas Mata generally plays the way he's facing, and passes it off as soon as someone closes him down. It's all pretty and keeps us 'ticking' but basically does nothing to move us forward.

 

[santeria13]

Anyone got a gif of that touch and skill towards the end of todays game? It was easily the highlight of the game.



Whilst I agree that he should be doing it more, it is difficult to make defense splitting passes when there's no one making the runs to get on the end of such passes. I swear I moved around more stood in the stand then Rooney did up front today.

We had two of the best strikers in the world in terms of movement here last season and he couldn't do it then either. Yeah their other qualities were/are in fast decline but no one can deny that their movement was still on another level. The treacherous rodent was pretty much the only one in the team providing them with any penetrating passes that they frustratingly couldn't finish most of the time. With him gone, we really suffer from lack of creation but I agree Rooney is not up to par.

I've mentioned before, his(Mata) final ball and passing accuracy are exquisite and one of his strongest qualities but his ability to spot out runners and see the gaps that aren't there so to speak is quite non existent. We need that player who can penetrate the defense through their vision, especially when it comes to breaking down teams who park the bus or are generally defending well and it is often in those games that mata coincidentally disappears.

To sum up my point shortly, once theres a clear gap, there's no one in the team I'd rather have on the ball than Mata due to the quality of his passing and this is why he puts out decent assist figures every year. He's lethal on the counter attack and takes great advantage of bad positioning by opposition defenders. My problem with him is that he doesn't have the vision or creativity to find that gap unless its generally obvious for all to see, and he will revert to keeping possession 9 times out of 10. We need someone who can provide that ball through even when the other team are defending well but that also requires good runs on the part of our strikers which (this season ) I feel is another important issue.

 

[Sammyjunn]

We had two of the best strikers in the world in terms of movement here last season and he couldn't do it then either. Yeah their other qualities were/are in complete decline but no one can deny that their movement was still on another level. Di Maria was pretty much the only one in the team providing them with any penetrating passes, that they couldn't finish most of the time, much to everyones annoyance.

Exactly, why could di Maria do it but Mata couldnt? I think it was rather to Mata himself than our strikers. RVP and Falcao arent the same, but they still made plenty of runs.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Anyone got a gif of that touch and skill towards the end of todays game? It was easily the highlight of the game.



Whilst I agree that he should be doing it more, it is difficult to make defense splitting passes when there's no one making the runs to get on the end of such passes. I swear I moved around more stood in the stand then Rooney did up front today.

The "no movement" excuse? Been trotted out for Kagawa and Mata with - at various times - RvP, Hernandez, Falcao, Rooney, Welbeck and Wilson up top and a bunch of different players in wide areas. Not sure I'm buying it tbh.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

We had two of the best strikers in the world in terms of movement here last season and he couldn't do it then either. Yeah their other qualities were/are in fast decline but no one can deny that their movement was still on another level. The treacherous rodent was pretty much the only one in the team providing them with any penetrating passes that they frustratingly couldn't finish most of the time. With him gone, we really suffer from lack of creation but I agree Rooney is not up to par.

I've mentioned before, his(Mata) final ball and passing accuracy are exquisite and one of his strongest qualities but his ability to spot out runners and see the gaps that aren't there so to speak is quite non existent. We need that player who can penetrate the defense through their vision, especially when it comes to breaking down teams who park the bus and it is often in those games that mata coincidentally disappears.

I'm almost 100% certain this isn't true.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The "no movement" excuse? Been trotted out for Kagawa and Mata with - at various times - RvP, Hernandez, Falcao, Rooney, Welbeck and Wilson up top and a bunch of different players in wide areas. Not sure I'm buying it tbh.

I'm talking about today's game - hence the Rooney comment.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm talking about today's game - hence the Rooney comment.

I know. I'm not judging Mata just on today's game though. My comment that you responded to was about his entire United career to date.

 

[santeria13]

I'm almost 100% certain this isn't true.

Then I'm also almost 100% certain you have no idea of what good movement means. By all means, their other qualities and what made them truly world class had greatly declined(shooting/finishing, pace, dribbling and reactios). Butt anyone who knows their 2 cents on how a striker is supposed to make runs, knows RVP and Falcao are still amazingly sharp in that regard. Unfortunately finishing, reactions and not falling over are also just as important for any striker.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

The "no movement" excuse? Been trotted out for Kagawa and Mata with - at various times - RvP, Hernandez, Falcao, Rooney, Welbeck and Wilson up top and a bunch of different players in wide areas. Not sure I'm buying it tbh.

well, you can use the same logic reverse....its our strikers fault as they had Mata, Kagawa, Scholes, Carrick, Young, Valencia, Nani that provided service. Reality is, its not that simple.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Then I'm also almost 100% certain you have no idea of what good movement means. By all means, their other qualities and what made them truly world class had greatly declined but anyone who knows their 2 cents on how a striker is supposed to make runs, knows RVP and Falcao are still amazingly sharp in that regard.

And there it is.

Falcao's movement is god awful now. I went to Old Trafford with the specific mission of watching him to see whether this "Oh but his movement is great" thing was actually true, and it wasn't in the slightest. He spent the majority of his matches hiding behind defenders when our players were actually looking for passes, and these so called "runs" would generally be at times when the pass would be incredibly unlikely to come, or they were back towards the play, making them utterly pointless.

To say Falcao's movement last season was fantastic is factually incorrect.

RVP at times had great movement, at other times he was a statue.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

well, you can use the same logic reverse....its our strikers fault as they had Mata, Kagawa, Scholes, Carrick, Young, Valencia, Nani that provided service. Reality is, its not that simple.

There's a direct correlation between Scholes' waning powers and our lack of penetration. Which speaks volumes about the creativity of the other players on that list. I don't see the same drop off in quality with our strikers.

Of course, you can't ignore the managerial changes either...

 

[santeria13]

And there it is.

Falcao's movement is god awful now. I went to Old Trafford with the specific mission of watching him to see whether this "Oh but his movement is great" thing was actually true, and it wasn't in the slightest. He spent the majority of his matches hiding behind defenders when our players were actually looking for passes, and these so called "runs" would generally be at times when the pass would be incredibly unlikely to come, or they were back towards the play, making them utterly pointless.

To say Falcao's movement last season was fantastic is factually incorrect.

RVP at times had great movement, at other times he was a statue.

Then, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I paid particular attention to both of their movement and was smacking my head on the wall at all the times no one even attempted to thread a ball through to them, save for rat face. Infact, I would argue that the only part of Falcaos game that has truly remained is his movement. You think Jose would sign him based off his other qualities, even as a 2nd/3rd choice striker? Anyway, different people see different things and I respect your opinion. The truth lies somewhere in the spectrum between our views.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

There's a direct correlation between Scholes' waning powers and our lack of penetration. Which speaks volumes about the creativity of the other players on that list. I don't see the same drop off in quality with our strikers.

Of course, you can't ignore the managerial changes either...

Welbeck - played 90% of the time on the wing and even if he had played as a striker, his movement as a striker in the final third is not the best. And i love the guy, probably my favorite player now.
Wilson - as Danny, like him and rate him very highly but his performances and his movement for first team are pretty bad
Falcao - once a great player, now a donkey
RVP - the minute Fergie left, the boy inside him died
Chicha - barely played since Fergie left

So while on paper we had great strikers, in reality we didnt as Van Persie and Falcao only offered a big name presence and Rooney was moved all around the pitch for who know which reasons....pretty much the same things can be said for majority of my "creators" and thats why i said its not that simple.
We play awful football and our players look much worse then they actually are, the quality is there(we need one or two more) and we should play much better football, im not blaming players because manager is responsible for them and how they play.

 

[Speak]

RVP - the minute Fergie left, the boy inside him died

 

[Eric'sCollar]

Another good performance but we need to get him on the ball closer to goal more.

 

[Lawman]

Another good performance but we need to get him on the ball closer to goal more.

Poor first half

 

[ChaddyP]

Was alright. Will have a Blinder in a game and y'all will love him again

 

[sullydnl]

I think it's pretty obvious that he isn't being utilised in a way that gets the best out of him. Played out of what I'm sure is his favourite position and in a system/style that doesn't seem to suit him much.

As is he's a tidy footballer who will get quite a lot of goals and assists. Which isn't a bad thing and actually makes him one of our better attacking players as he will continue doing that pretty consistently. However, when you consider the talent he displayed at Chelsea it really does seem like a waste....

I guess his future comes down to a few things. For one, how much more he can adapt and improve to suit the system. I think it's fair to say his game has changed a bit in the last while? Seems to do more defensively and is more possession focused, I think. I know some people complain about him being too cautious but that may well be him attempting to fit in with Van Gaal's philosophy.

The key point though is how happy Van Gaal is with how he plays. Maybe he is actually doing what the manager wants? It wouldn't be the first time LVG's view of what's right for the team is at odds with the caf's.

I guess we'll know when Pedro arrives and we see who he replaces in the starting eleven.

 

[prarek]

I think the only way we'll, consistently (and thats the key) see the best of Mata, is when (and if) the whole team clicks.

Could just insert a random name there and you wouldn't be wrong.

 

[Sam]

Could just insert a random name there and you wouldn't be wrong.

Not really. We've seen iplenty of players down the years stand out and play at their best, even if the team around them hasn't been playing great. RVP, Aguero, Hazard all do it. Kane did it last season.

Mata only seems to play really well, when everyone else is. I think the main reason for that is that he lacks that individualism to stand out. He's not fast, or strong, nor does he have great dribbling skills, or the ability to dictate the play. So the only way he can get into good positions is with clever movement and good passing. If his teammates don't provide either of that, then he comes a bit of a passenger, as he doesn't have much else to hurt the opposition with.

On song, I think he's a wonderful player to watch, he really is. But he can't do it on his own. He's just not that type of player.

 

[prarek]

Not really. We've seen iplenty of players down the years stand out and play at their best, even if the team around them hasn't been playing great. RVP, Aguero, Hazard all do it. Kane did it last season.

Mata only seems to play really well, when everyone else is. I think the main reason for that is that he lacks that individualism to stand out. He's not fast, or strong, nor does he have great dribbling skills, or the ability to dictate the play. So the only way he can get into good positions is with clever movement and good passing. If his teammates don't provide either of that, then he comes a bit of a passenger, as he doesn't have much else to hurt the opposition with.

On song, I think he's a wonderful player to watch, he really is. But he can't do it on his own. He's just not that type of player.

I was actually only talking about our team. We don't have a player like that I agree. Although he was great at Chelsea when they were playing some really poor football but those performances will just be dismissed as him being good only because the whole team being set up for him so he can't win really.

 

[jem]

Another good performance but we need to get him on the ball closer to goal more.

You know I'm right there with you on the Mata-man-crush, but I really do wish he'd be a bit more assertive in his passing. It might be down to lack of movement, or more likely, strict programming from Van Gaal, but the amount of times he skates infield with the ball, displaying that ever-silky control, only to lay it off to the player behind, is a bit frustrating. I really would love to see him playing more centrally in his natural position (I guess what the number fetishists around here would refer to as the #10 position.)

 

[jem]

Not really. We've seen iplenty of players down the years stand out and play at their best, even if the team around them hasn't been playing great. RVP, Aguero, Hazard all do it. Kane did it last season.

Mata only seems to play really well, when everyone else is. I think the main reason for that is that he lacks that individualism to stand out. He's not fast, or strong, nor does he have great dribbling skills, or the ability to dictate the play. So the only way he can get into good positions is with clever movement and good passing. If his teammates don't provide either of that, then he comes a bit of a passenger, as he doesn't have much else to hurt the opposition with.

On song, I think he's a wonderful player to watch, he really is. But he can't do it on his own. He's just not that type of player.

I agree, but he's so good when things are clicking that I really think it is worth building up the fluency of the rest of the squad and enabling Mata to provide the aesthetic icing on the cake, as it were. Of course, I think there will be certain fixtures for which he might not be best suited. That's why I love the squad depth that we are building (hopefully with added Pedro in the coming days.)

 

[Eric'sCollar]

You know I'm right there with you on the Mata-man-crush, but I really do wish he'd be a bit more assertive in his passing. It might be down to lack of movement, or more likely, strict programming from Van Gaal, but the amount of times he skates infield with the ball, displaying that ever-silky control, only to lay it off to the player behind, is a bit frustrating. I really would love to see him playing more centrally in his natural position (I guess what the number fetishists around here would refer to as the #10 position.)

I think that's the thing with his passing though, when he gets it out wide and facing inside, he has those options. Put him in the middle and you double his options as he can go both ways.

 

[ZDwyr]

I'd like to see him given a go centrally again. Just to change the attack up a bit and see if we can create more chances.

 

[Speak]

We'll be here in months talkimg about how 'when Mata's played here' or 'this player is signed' or 'once there's movement' we'll see the best of Mata. People still won't have realised/admitted he's just not actually very creative.

 

[Amar__]

Does anyone have video/gif of his amazing ball control when everyone saw the ball going for throw in?

cnuts never showed it from closer view, but it's important that they showed foul on Young at least five times and Schweini clipping one of Spurs' players at least from 3 different angles.

 

[Orton]

He needs his mate to link up with in the attack. Had nobody to play those one two's with yesterday. Almost a full right hand side to himself with the odd run from Darmian, but with no link from midfield and no runs in attack he will struggle. Either play him off the striker or play a box to box mid who can link up (Herrera, where are you?)

 

[Obiorahking_]

World class number ten and he is playing as a RW and is losing his position to a 21 year old who has no experience playing there. sometimes I just really really hate LVG. It is nice to.see that he making the most out of his limited role.

 

[jem]

We'll be here in months talkimg about how 'when Mata's played here' or 'this player is signed' or 'once there's movement' we'll see the best of Mata. People still won't have realised/admitted he's just not actually very creative.

Or conversely, he'll have a great run of games followed by one indifferent one, and then all the same criticisms will be trotted out again.

 

[Speak]

Or conversely, he'll have a great run of games followed by one indifferent one, and then all the same criticisms will be trotted out again.

The criticisms are all valid. They aren't just plucked out of thin air.

 

[jem]

The criticisms are all valid. They aren't just plucked out of thin air.

Hey I've said much of the same, but I think they're exaggerated at times. He's shown with Chelsea just how dominant he can be.

 

[Ballache]

He made the most out of playing RM, it wasn't even a RF like last season he was too deep at times. His touch and ball retention is world class, he needs to play behind Rooney with 2 pacey wingers ahead of him. Solid performance yesterday and I'm certain he'll hit double figures in both goals and assists this season if he plays.

 

[Ole240599]

He needs to come off the wing, too easily knocked off the ball by speedy full backs. Was guilty of losing the ball 3-4 times in the early stages with one leading to the great chance that Spurs had in the first half. Played much better for the rest of the game but really needs to play centrally going forward.

 

[DWelbz19]

Was alright. Will have a Blinder in a game and y'all will love him again

But the same criticisms will hold true. A blinder for Mata would probably be scoring a few goals because of how clinical he is in front of goal. It won't be him completely dictating play, creating openings and holding possession for himself with guile in the way other top playmakers in the league do.

 

[shamans]

But the same criticisms will hold true. A blinder for Mata would probably be scoring a few goals because of how clinical he is in front of goal. It won't be him completely dictating play, creating openings and holding possession for himself with guile in the way other top playmakers in the league do.

He needs to play behind the striker for that